Aeroponics - SCROG for the roots?

[straightup636]

Hey everyone,

New guy here. Been a long time grower (mostly rdwc) but am looking to get into aeroponics, and I've been making plans to build my own high pressure setup.

Given the reasons why aeroponics works so well, I was wondering if it would be beneficial to put a small trellis in the bucket underneath the net pot to allow the roots to spread out and gain more exposure to the sprayers? When the root mass grows into a big ball, I could theoretically see some of the interior roots being starved because the misters (especially low pressure systems) aren't going to penetrate. I was thinking about it, and had just wondered if it might be possible to apply the scrog idea to the roots using a trellis mounted somewhere under the net pot (supposing you are using a bucket or tote that has space for it).

So, does this sound crazy? Would it even work? Supposing the roots don't weave their way in and out of the trellis, could you do it manually like in a scrog? I don't have a system built at the moment otherwise I'd try it myself. Any ideas? Or am I just an idiot?

 

[Larry3215]

You can certainly try it and see, but Ive never heard of anyone having any luck with that. The roots have a bad habit of ignoring everything - including a trellis - and just single mindedly going straight for the source of the mist. The exception to that is if you give them too much mist - then they go straight for the floor.

Gravity means nothing to aeroponic roots until they get pretty long, or if they stay too wet. If you give them extra support, that will just make it easier for them to get to your nozzles that much faster.

The trick is to judge the amount of mist so they are just right rather then too wet or too dry.

 

[Airwalker16]

If you've dialed in rdwc, I'd recommend keeping with it for flower. You can dabble in Aero for keeping moms and of course cloning, but RDwC is where it's at on flowering.

 

[straightup636]

You can certainly try it and see, but Ive never heard of anyone having any luck with that. The roots have a bad habit of ignoring everything - including a trellis - and just single mindedly going straight for the source of the mist. The exception to that is if you give them too much mist - then they go straight for the floor.

Gravity means nothing to aeroponic roots until they get pretty long, or if they stay too wet. If you give them extra support, that will just make it easier for them to get to your nozzles that much faster.

The trick is to judge the amount of mist so they are just right rather then too wet or too dry.

Thanks for the reply Larry. Looking at your pic, it seems that the root ball is much more loosely aerated than I originally presumed. My DWC roots, with mature plants, seem to be much more densely packed together than your aero setup.

I'll just chalk this one up to being high.

 

[straightup636]

If you've dialed in rdwc, I'd recommend keeping with it for flower. You can dabble in Aero for keeping moms and of course cloning, but RDwC is where it's at on flowering.

Yo Airwalker,

I've seen some pretty impressive results with high pressure aero - I think I'm just bored. Back when I first migrated from soil to dwc to rdwc, I was so excited to be tweaking everything to my liking. It's been dialed in over several years now so I guess I'm just looking for something to do on the side. Make no mistake, I'm never getting rid of my rdwc tents - as you mentioned, there's just nothing else that comes close - and I've tried many of systems.

Aero is about the only thing I have never attempted, so I've been planning a low cost DIY high pressure aero setup using some tallish 13 gallon buckets that I will daisy chain to a reservoir. Originally I was going to go with a tote container, but I really want to try and give the roots as much room as possible to hang - if they are just going to be laying all over the bottom of the bucket, I might as well just use a dwc setup.

Anyways, thanks for the reply.

 

[Airwalker16]

Yo Airwalker,

I've seen some pretty impressive results with high pressure aero - I think I'm just bored. Back when I first migrated from soil to dwc to rdwc, I was so excited to be tweaking everything to my liking. It's been dialed in over several years now so I guess I'm just looking for something to do on the side. Make no mistake, I'm never getting rid of my rdwc tents - as you mentioned, there's just nothing else that comes close - and I've tried many of systems.

Aero is about the only thing I have never attempted, so I've been planning a low cost DIY high pressure aero setup using some tallish 13 gallon buckets that I will daisy chain to a reservoir. Originally I was going to go with a tote container, but I really want to try and give the roots as much room as possible to hang - if they are just going to be laying all over the bottom of the bucket, I might as well just use a dwc setup.

Anyways, thanks for the reply.

Not necessarily, bruv. The 10gal tote system I used has benefits I didn't originally forsee. Mainly that watering is dialed down to one single minute per hour and the residual water left in the tote, acts as a safety blanket for the roots BECAUSE they splay all over it. They do tend to find their way to the drain though so that's something that needs to be kept in check every now and then. But the reservoir is, exactly as you mentioned, a 13gal trash can. This works well because the pump has to overcome 5' of head pressure each time upon start up and a "column" of water rather than a low wide volume like in a 20gal tote, is a huge advantage because the water pressure is much greater on top of the pump to help push down and gives the pump a lot of assistance.

 

[Larry3215]

Originally I was going to go with a tote container, but I really want to try and give the roots as much room as possible to hang - if they are just going to be laying all over the bottom of the bucket, I might as well just use a dwc setup.

If your talking about an aero setup, then taller is better up to a point, but the roots will eventually get down to the bottom of the root chamber. How much of the root mass in still up in the air vrs on the bottom depends on how long the grow lasts. With autos, and a fast grow, most of the root mass will still be up in the air if your chamber is tall enough. With a photo, and especially if you veg a long time, you will have a lot more of the roots on the bottom just due to the time factor. The roots keep growing until almost harvest time - well past the stretch the plants do above.

My root chamber is 24" in diameter and about 29" tall or about 55 gallons total volume. My roots have filled it almost all the way up on a long grow. The bggest root mass Ive had was with a single mostly sativa C99 that I let veg for 6 weeks, then had a 10 week flower. The roots have completely covered the bottom every time. Sometimes the bottom is only an inch or so deep in roots and others it has been 4" to 6" deep - like with that C99. Lately Im only growing two to 3 autos in the tent at a time, but even with the shorter grow times, they fill up the chamber pretty full.

Also, how wide the roots spread out horizontally is almost entirely dependent on how wet or dry your mist environment is. If its too wet, they go almost straight down. If its just a hair too dry, they like to go sideways like crazy. They WILL find your nozzles

As far as yields, Ive had way better yields from HPA and AAA than I had with any other type of growing. When I did soil, I was just under 5 gms dry yield per growing day. In my other hydro grows, I got between 5 and 6 gm/day. HPA got me up to 7 gm/day +- a bit, and AAA has me almost to 8 gms per day when I fill the tent.

I dont use grams/watt - its a meaning less number that cant be used to compare different grows - even your own. Grams per watt is entirely dependent on how long you veg - all other factors being equal.

Forgot to mention - I use a fabric root chamber for evaporative cooling. If you are considering a plastic container, you may have temperature control issues depending on how your grow space is configured. Temperature control in the root zone is really important in aero.

 

[Larry3215]

Aero is about the only thing I have never attempted, so I've been planning a low cost DIY high pressure aero setup

LOL Yeah, HPA and AAA are not for the faint of heart. You really need to have a desire to tinker and mess with the system or you will never get it dialed in.

Once you do get it dialed in, it can be just as hands off as any other type of growing. If you go drain to waste, its even more hands off - no more messing with a nasty rez and wild PH swings, etc etc.

What nozzles, pressures, etc are you using? Accumulator tank, solenoids at the nozzles etc etc? Im curious about how others do these things when they go off the same deep end I did

 

[Drop That Sound]

I actually see it working with some benefits... You would have to manually reach down in and train the roots, just like managing a scrogged canopy, It would be a little extra work, but could very well pay off. Sure the roots will want to do what they want, but who's the boss?

 

[Atomizer]

Worthwhile for LPA where the roots head straight down and pile up on the floor.

 

[Larry3215]

You would have to manually reach down in and train the roots, just like managing a scrogged canopy, It would be a little extra work, but could very well pay off.

You will not want to do that if you manage to get true aero roots - with the super fine fuzzy hairs. For one, you will destroy any fuzzy hairs you touch with your hands. They also act like vlecro and stick to each other when forced together, and they do not pull back apart without doing more damage. The instant you try to train them, they will just get smushed together into a dense mass which is the opposite of what you want.

LPA type smooth roots wont be that kind of problem, but I still dont see any real benefit. Water can easily wick through a mass of smooth roots to get to the center.

The root ball may look like a densely packed mass, but there is plenty of open space for your mist to get inside. Remember, you are shooting to creat mist with droplets in the 20 to 80 micron range. The smaller droplets easily float around and penetrate deeply into the roots. Those super fine fuzzy hairs are your goal in HPA and AAA. Dont mess with them if you have them.

 

[Larry3215]

Here is an over all view from further back. There is no way you can pull this apart and try to spread it out without destroying most of the fuzzy hairs. That will do major damage. This root mass is perfectly happy as it is and does not need or want to be spread out.

The secrete to happy aero roots is good mist quality, and good temperature control - not training. Proper PH and EC levels also help of course, but it all starts with mist quality.

 

[Airwalker16]

Here is an over all view from further back. There is no way you can pull this apart and try to spread it out without destroying most of the fuzzy hairs. That will do major damage. This root mass is perfectly happy as it is and does not need or want to be spread out.

The secrete to happy aero roots is good mist quality, and good temperature control - not training. Proper PH and EC levels also help of course, but it all starts with mist quality.

Impressive. That whole monsters being supported by just a neoprene collar? I'd have thrown some hydroton in that net pot.

 

[straightup636]

LOL Yeah, HPA and AAA are not for the faint of heart. You really need to have a desire to tinker and mess with the system or you will never get it dialed in.

Once you do get it dialed in, it can be just as hands off as any other type of growing. If you go drain to waste, its even more hands off - no more messing with a nasty rez and wild PH swings, etc etc.

What nozzles, pressures, etc are you using? Accumulator tank, solenoids at the nozzles etc etc? Im curious about how others do these things when they go off the same deep end I did

Larry - thanks so much for all the replies - I really appreciate it brother.

I've have experience growing in almost every way fashionable, except anything aero. I fell in love with dwc many years ago precisely because I like to tinker and work with the plants. I'm only using RDWC right now and have been for almost 10 years now. As such, I have nothing left to tinker because everything is pretty much dialed in.

That is why I started to get interested in aero - obviously for the results, but mostly so I could have a shiny new toy to play around with. I know a lot of people want convenience and a set-it=and-forget-it type experience, but I actually enjoy all of the tinkering - it's relaxing to me.

I've done quite a bit of research into aero systems, so I generally know what I'm in for, but I'm sure there will be all kinds of little things that pop up that you didn't plan for. As mentioned, I will be building a small little setup just to get comfortable and I'm soaking up all the knowledge you are giving - so thanks for that! Once I get it built, I will come back and post up some pics.

As to what nozzles/etc I'm using - I'm going to come back later tonight and post a small parts list of what I'm assembling - I'd appreciate your input if you could spare the time! Maybe we can compare notes.

 

[straightup636]

Here is an over all view from further back. There is no way you can pull this apart and try to spread it out without destroying most of the fuzzy hairs. That will do major damage. This root mass is perfectly happy as it is and does not need or want to be spread out.

The secrete to happy aero roots is good mist quality, and good temperature control - not training. Proper PH and EC levels also help of course, but it all starts with mist quality.

I get what you are saying and agree that it's probably a ridiculous idea. However, the idea was not to take a matured root mass and try to untangle\train it into a screen. I was thinking more of having the screen there in the beginning and wondering if the roots would naturally start to weave their way through it - maybe coaxing them with some creative sprayer placement.

I here you though. It doesn't sound feasible because as you mentioned, the roots from aero are much different than what you get in soil or dwc.

 

[Larry3215]

Impressive. That whole monsters being supported by just a neoprene collar? I'd have thrown some hydroton in that net pot.

That particular plant was still pretty young - just a few weeks old. However, I have grown very large single plants in just a 3" net pot with only the neoprene collar. I tried using hydroton and even perlite in the early stages in the hope that it would help the roots make the transition from how I start them - in mini hempy style dixie cups with perlite - to just living off the mist. Turns out its not necessary.

The roots will weave around the net pot early on and use it for the main support. The lip on the net pot sits on the top of the root chamber and provides plenty of support for even a large plant.

Well, I should also mention that I always do scrog setups, so once the plant starts to get larger, most of the weight is supported by the scrog screen.

The largest single plant Ive grown filled my small tent - 28"x39" square. The yield was well over 3000 gms wet from a single C99 seed in a 3" net pot with no hydroton or anything else.

 

[straightup636]

That particular plant was still pretty young - just a few weeks old. However, I have grown very large single plants in just a 3" net pot with only the neoprene collar. I tried using hydroton and even perlite in the early stages in the hope that it would help the roots make the transition from how I start them - in mini hempy style dixie cups with perlite - to just living off the mist. Turns out its not necessary.

The roots will weave around the net pot early on and use it for the main support. The lip on the net pot sits on the top of the root chamber and provides plenty of support for even a large plant.

Well, I should also mention that I always do scrog setups, so once the plant starts to get larger, most of the weight is supported by the scrog screen.

The largest single plant Ive grown filled my small tent - 28"x39" square. The yield was well over 3000 gms wet from a single C99 seed in a 3" net pot with no hydroton or anything else.

Looks great Larry. If I could give you a like I would!

 

[Larry3215]

Here are another couple of pics from that same grow. The last tow pics are from my first auto grow.

The root mass ended up almost filling my 55 gallon chamber. The main root ball was a full 24" in diameter and nearly that tall, plus a thick layer on the bottom of the chamber. All the nozzles were completely covered up by the time I harvested. The resulted in some parts of the root ball turning smooth and brown and dying back due to no mist coverage. Parts of it still looked great and parts not so much.

I also suffer from a bad case of GWS - Growing While Stoned. That usually means I screw up and turn the nozzles off to do some maintenance then forget to turn them back on for a few hours. Usually ore than once! That sort of fuck up tends to slow the plant down some, and the roots sure dont like it much.

Here is another example of what happens when you mess with fuzzy hair roots. That slice looking dent in the lower right part of the root mass is where I dropped my phone trying to take a picture. The roots never did recover totally in that spot, but did finally start to grow new shoots to cover it up.

Here is what the 3" net pot looks like late in a long grow.

 

[straightup636]

Here are another couple of pics from that same grow. The last tow pics are from my first auto grow.

The root mass ended up almost filling my 55 gallon chamber. The main root ball was a full 24" in diameter and nearly that tall, plus a thick layer on the bottom of the chamber. All the nozzles were completely covered up by the time I harvested. The resulted in some parts of the root ball turning smooth and brown and dying back due to no mist coverage. Parts of it still looked great and parts not so much.

I also suffer from a bad case of GWS - Growing While Stoned. That usually means I screw up and turn the nozzles off to do some maintenance then forget to turn them back on for a few hours. Usually ore than once! That sort of fuck up tends to slow the plant down some, and the roots sure dont like it much.

Here is another example of what happens when you mess with fuzzy hair roots. That slice looking dent in the lower right part of the root mass is where I dropped my phone trying to take a picture. The roots never did recover totally in that spot, but did finally start to grow new shoots to cover it up.

Here is what the 3" net pot looks like late in a long grow.

That's sweet Larry - especially the first pic - wow! This is what I'm going for. What was the yield on that plant? How long did you veg?

 

[Airwalker16]

Holy shit....
That's actually insane.. I guess you're not using a trellis. Because even my 6" pots sat into 5gal bucket lids with a hole cut out for them, have more than a few times, forces themselves down THROUGH the lid and into the bucket.
I can't say I've ever had my stems get THAT enormous though.