The original one is what I have, the gsc forum cut x 88hp. Grew great and really outshined the sundance kids in my opinion. I will definitely be purchasing more bodhi seeds in the future..
Aussie High Lights – we're official
- Thread starter Grow Lights Australia
- Start date
lukio
Well-Known Member
sweet, yeah bodhis great. i have both versions waiting to pop. good luck with the next grow under these boards
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
Hi mate, the chances would be pretty slim for a few reasons. There are really only two companies that make and market "purple-pump" (<420nm) white phosphor LEDs, which are Seoul Semicondiuctor and Yuji LED. Both are very expensive. Besides which, Yuji doesn't make a 3030 purple pump LED so that just leaves SSC for our design. We did look at getting some custom Sunlike LEDs made, but the efficiency was even worse, even though the price was cheaper.
To give you an idea of just how bad the efficiency is, we pay a premium for top Flux Bin (Q5) and lowest Vf bin (Z1) available, and these 6500K LEDs come in at about 48% efficiency for around 2.2 umol/j. A similar top bin Nichia or Samsung CRI80 blue-pump LED would be over 65% efficient and around 2.9 umol/j. They would also be half the price.
We only use the Sunlike LEDs to give us the near-UV and small UVA boost. We mix in Nichia's Optisolis 2700K for the red and far red boost. The Optisolis have arguably the best flowering spectrum of any white phosphor LED we have seen, but again they cost twice as much as even the best typical 3030 LEDs, and even though efficiency is better than the Sunlike it is still only around 52-53%. The overal board efficiency comes from the Nichia 757 V3-F1 series that are the most efficient CRI90 LEDs on the market, coming in at around 2.7-2.75 umol/j for the 2700K version (the new HT-F1 Nichia LEDs are marketted at 2% more efficient than the V3-F1, but the reality is the available bins in CRI90 2700 are no higher).
So making a board heavy in Sunlike LEDs would firstly cost almost twice as much, and secondly would drag overall efficiency right down. And what would be to gain from it?
In our experience, there wouldn't be much to gain at all. The extra UV and lack of red and far red would stunt growth and the only morphogenetic response you would notice would be very tight inter-nodal spacing. We're not even sure how much it would boost cannabinoids and terpenes, as all the tests we've done (which I admit are not many) have shown that only a small amount of near-UV is needed, and that larger amounts of UV or UVB appear to have a detrimental effect, as UV breaks down cannabinoids at the same time as it stresses the plant into producing more. There appears to be a point at which UV (especially UVB) breaks down cannabinoids faster than the plants can produce them.
So really the question is, why would you want to do it? More expensive, less efficient and slower growth is really the opposite of what we're trying to achieve!
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
Everything is on order and we are just waiting for it all to arrive. Freight is still a PIA at the moment, but part of the problem is we underestimated demand for our last run of UV boards which sold out in two weeks. We will double the production run this time to (hopefully) avoid future stocking issues. We're a small company (as in, really small), so we don't have the resources to ramp things up overnight.
But to answer your question, I'm hoping to have all the parts in the next two weeks and the earliest we would re-stock is in three weeks but more likely four, as nothing appears to be running on time these days. We do have High red boards in stock and single heatsinks should be arriving this week (they are in transit).
Rocket Soul
Well-Known Member
It would be cool to see some product sold with the high light that would make them more vegg friendly, like a strip that fits to the heatsink with some extra blue, wide sweep over blues and violets. Or some extra space for buddies which i believe will come in all sorts of colors.
This one of the reasons i like to just set my booards onn alu sheet backing; extra realestate for monos and strips.
Edit: or the blue/near uv-buddies
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I've got two plants currently vegging under these boards right now and they seem to be doing well. I have a lot of other options I could have vegged under, but out of laziness and wanting to see first hand how these more so "flowering boards", I decided to keep these hung up in the tent full cycle this time. I don't have the experience nor the dialed in environment/setting to offer any sort of comparison to any other light-source though, I find myself still struggling to keep my plants watered properly so I am far from being able to offer an educated opinion on any type of growing techniques. I'll throw some pictures up when I transplant them in the next few days though if you all are curious to see.
Also on this grow, I am hoping to try out a couple strings of the new buddies product. I have 2x strands of each 4k and PC reds. I am thinking I will use the 4k strands for this run as some side lighting. I'm really not too sure about how I will integrate them into the tiny tent, but any suggestions or ideas on how to set them up would be greatly appreciated.
SSGrower
Well-Known Member
I think I remember the trials, the original was a 390nm pump? Based on what I have done with 365nm uv (time and watts run) I dont believe there is risk of detriment due to uv, perhaps something to the effect of flowering under mh vs flowering under hps?
My purpose and reason for asking is because I already run cobs (a lot of them) and I am not going to throw them out. I think this style board would be a good pairing for them and the 2 boards I already have. With summer approaching my room is running hotter and that seems to be increasing board temps, I want to still run the same watts but would like for the boards to operate cooler. Additionally as @Rocket Soul points out I think it would make a good veg light. Used in veg it would be like boot camp.
So it fills a market gap imo.
I am not effeciency nut, I am a stingey bastard and I will drop money on things I believe in 2x the cost might be justifiable if you think you will move at least half the number of normal boards. Out of curiosity are you selling lots of the pure 2700 (red boards)?
SSGrower
Well-Known Member
@Grow Lights Australia as always thanks for the detailed and no doubt time consuming response. If you don't ask you don't get, so I ask.
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
Well, this is where we have to disagree with the common perception that blue is better for veg. We think it's a myth, and this is based on the grows we've seen and the science we've read. In all the studies we've seen, higher amounts of red light compared to blue leads to higher wet and dry mass of nearly all species (from leafy greens to flowering species). The difference is even more pronounced as you add far red. Yes, the addition of far red does elongate internode length, but it also broadens leaves which increases photosynthetic efficiency (bigger leaves = more area to photosynthesise) and leads to faster growth. There is only one reason you would want to sacrifice faster growth for shorter internodes, and that is if you predominantly grow sativas that flower for a much longer time and do not need to be vegged as long. We've seen faster vegetative growth under High Light UV boards than we have under straight 5000K CRI80 strips. In fact, we have recommended 4000K strips over 5000K for dedicated veg fixtures precisely for this reason. Those who have switched have reported no issues with excessive stretch. Many indoor growers these days grow indica hybrids so a little bit of stretch is actually preferred when going into flower as it opens up the canopy a bit more.It would be cool to see some product sold with the high light that would make them more vegg friendly, like a strip that fits to the heatsink with some extra blue, wide sweep over blues and violets. Or some extra space for buddies which i believe will come in all sorts of colors.
This one of the reasons i like to just set my booards onn alu sheet backing; extra realestate for monos and strips.
Edit: or the blue/near uv-buddies
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
Yes. Asking is always the best policy
But for us it helps to know why you're asking so that we can try to address the perception before we offer an opinion. We think the perception that blue is better for vegging is one of those old wives tales that have persisted since the days of using HPS vs MH when there was a bigger difference in stretch due to the fact HPS had very little blue and almost no UV, as well as a lower red:far red ratio compared to MH. Heat was also a factor that induced stretch, so that did not help when growing under either MH or HPS.These days LEDs have less heat (infrared) and more blue than HPS, so even a 3000K LED (which is what the High Light UV board is) is going to stretch much less. Blue light is also higher in energy, so is more likely to increase leaf temps if it can't all be photosynthesised. That's why we prefer a more balanced spectrum. It's also worth noting that the McCree Curve is based on leaf absorption and is more heavily weighted towards the red spectrum. The McCree Curve doesn't care whether the plant is vegging or flowering it is based only on photosynthetic response.
The only other thing I can add is that most cannabis growers want flowers, so if you could only buy one board, would you rather one that performed better in veg or flower? It's a bit of a trick question, because we believe a better flowering board is also a better veg board for the reasons I've explained. We might make the distinction between the UV and High Red boards on our website, but that's more to do with the amount of near-UV and small amount of UVA which is proven to reduce internodal length (but also stunt growth in larger doses) and is mostly beneficial for terpene and cannibinoid production.
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
Probably too cool a white for you guys, but the optisolis 5000k looks to be using a 420nm base, that the warmer optisolis does not. Curious that.
Unrelated and unqualified aside, sometimes feel like many of the diodes available are handled like raw gemstones a few decades ago. Low grade material would traditionally be bought up to be processed by Indian cutters, whilst the rarer, quality stuff would go to Israeli processors. I wonder if the same is true for packaging of the raw led die. The pricier lines from a manufacturer have better lower thermal resistance, than economy leds from the same product/family, indicating a different bonding/packaging technology or factory. Yet the outward package appearance and footprint is shared.
I digress. Excuse me.
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have seen larger leaves in outdoor plants grown surreptitiously in shaded locations, compared to their full sun companions. Also noticed the change in growth and leaf expansion with indoor plants placed well away from the main light source. Made me question the wavelengths driving this, when noticing similar patterns in some examples posted here on rollitup. Especially with, but not limited to chinese red/blue lights.
In some parts of the world, I think some outdoor growers plant out late near the tail-end of the wet season. The days are slowly getting shorter, and the red/far red component is slightly increasing. Their food crops will be on autopilot and finishing, and they can dedicate time to the cash crop hidden elswhere.
I look with interest at some different cooler CCT 90/95 cri. Very interested in interaction of the blue/green with red/far red. No doubt, in my mind of the wonderful results I see from others using these lights that appear to be richer in deep and far red, than the bog standard 3K 80cri I have.
Just wonder what a more sunlike like led would do?
Humple
Well-Known Member
I find that 3000k 80 CRI works just fine for veg. No excessive stretch in my experience, as long as you give them enough light.
SSGrower
Well-Known Member
Precicely why I used the term one off. I recognize the minority I belong to which is going to made even more distinct by the following. I care less of yield than I do pheonotypic expression and the manipulation of of plant morphology.Yes. Asking is always the best policy
These days LEDs have less heat (infrared) and more blue than HPS, so even a 3000K LED (which is what the High Light UV board is) is going to stretch much less. Blue light is also higher in energy, so is more likely to increase leaf temps if it can't all be photosynthesised. That's why we prefer a more balanced spectrum. It's also worth noting that the McCree Curve is based on leaf absorption and is more heavily weighted towards the red spectrum. The McCree Curve doesn't care whether the plant is vegging or flowering it is based only on photosynthetic response.
The only other thing I can add is that most cannabis growers want flowers, so if you could only buy one board, would you rather one that performed better in veg or flower? It's a bit of a trick question, because we believe a better flowering board is also a better veg board for the reasons I've explained. We might make the distinction between the UV and High Red boards on our website, but that's more to do with the amount of near-UV and small amount of UVA which is proven to reduce internodal length (but also stunt growth in larger doses) and is mostly beneficial for terpene and cannibinoid production.
Keeping a compact mother plant is another reason imo for precicely the things you view as detractors. I have also been a believer that there are benifits not directly photsynthetic related to broadening the spectrum beyond the mcree curve both in wavelength and ratio.
Also, not set on those ratios just figgured there would be an off chance of a production error where the wrong spools was loaded you might have something lying around the office. Personally for my current need I would prefer more of a 50/50 split.
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
It's all about efficiency. The 5000K "purple pump" Optisolis delivers very high CRI for a high Kelvin chip but is not very efficient and is harder to match on a LED board because it has a lower maximum current rating of 140mA. You can get high CRI with decent efficiency in a warmer chip (<5000K) by using a blue pump and spreading the phosphor band wider into the red to get the R9 up. Seoul Semiconductor uses a 415nm pump. The original Sunlike used a 405nm die, but it was even less efficient, so they copied Nichia and boosted the pump to 415nm. But they used it throughout their Sunlike LED range and so their lower Kelvin LEDs are higher voltage and nowhere near as efficienct as Nichia's 2700-4000K Optisolis.
Grow Lights Australia
Well-Known Member
They are all good, valid points for wanting the board you do. I wish I could say we had a few fuck-up boards lying around, but for the price we pay for Seoul Semiconductor Sunlike LEDs we account for every one of them!
end_of_the_tunnel
Well-Known Member
I like the concept of compact mothers. And have been tempted to master unruly and rampant growth brought on by seasonal temperature increases by replacing 3K with 4K Q series strips. Mature mini mothers took well to the change, but there was one particular example that stacked nodes so tightly and made for zero chance of cuttings until it was back under 3K. Be interesting to repeat the effort with a 4K with richer deep red and far red than the samsung 80cri I used. I wonder what difference I would see?