High Voltage Aeroponics

[fmx1988]

Hi guys, for the last couple of years, I've been playing with high-voltage electric fields to make the droplets within an Aeroponic system negatively charged and attracted to the root's of plants. It's come on quite nicely and found I was able to affect the surface tension of the nutrient solution upon formation of the droplet so that I also have much more control of droplet size/dispersion with the root zone.

I was hoping to get some feedback in regards to the potential features and the market in general - I've always been attracted to Aeroponics for the fast growth rates it can offer for small to medium plants, but i know a lot of people are put off by the high risk nature of it. I've aimed to reduce the reliability issues by using a rotary atomizer custom built for high e.c. values and plant matter etc, and incorporated a battery back up power supply for power cuts and appropriate sensors in case of mechanical failures.

Essentially, i'm tempted to launch it into the hobbyist market and thought it would be a good idea to speak with you guys to find out if this is worth while, and if so, what kind of features you would like in such a product? e.g. cloud/mobile apps, sensors, alerts/notifications, top notch warranty, hardware as a service or financing options, plug and play or full kit etc etc?

Thanks in advance! Rich

 

[Larry3215]

I have no interest in any kind of high $$ turn key system. Im a DIY kind of guy. However, I am very interested in seeing the details of your system and especially root pics and plant pics.

I looked into this a while back and decided it was too difficult to implement - safely - with the equipment I happened to have on hand, and I wasnt willing to spend any extra $ on it. There were also a few studies on how very small voltage/current flows in the root zone can effect plant growth - both in good and bad ways. The acceptable "good" range was very small and very narrow as far as current flow. Outside that range damage occurred rapidly. I didnt have the ability to measure accurately at that low a current. We are talking micro amps.

Anyway, all that makes me a bit leery, so thats why plant and especially root pics would be necessary, as well as details on how you put the system together. Plus - results are what matter most

 

[fmx1988]

Yeah I completely understand what you mean about being a DIY kind of guy - it's essentially why I started getting into it in the first place. Never understood why anyone would buy a complete grow system when you can build them so easily for the fraction of the cost. With that said, custom built rotary atomizers with high voltage electric fields is probably out the reach of even the most passionate of DIY growers!

My thought process from the start has always been to focus on the core of the technology and wrap it up into an easy to use, plug and play system that is easily adapted to any custom built grow chamber - something that even a keen DIY grower might be interested in. Unfortunately i'm at my first crossroads in the world of business, where my investor is keen on selling strictly to large commercial growers by adapting the technology to their needs and focusing on the software side of things. This is definitely a good business strategy, but I personally would like to see my technology available for hobbyist growers too!

It's cool that you have toyed with the idea of doing it and you are right in thinking about the difficulty of doing it safely - some of the obvious ones was easily solved via electrical components and code within the firmware, but the possibility of electrical charge building up within the reservoir and acting like a capacitor (however unlikely) required more thought to make it completely fail safe.

In regards to finding the right voltage and current that the plants benefits from, I've built an app that allows growers to vary the high voltage within a safe range, but i'm cautious not to boast about the benefits of this directly on the plants just yet and instead focus on the benefits the high voltage has on the properties of the mist thanks to the lower surface tension and the electrostatic effect.

I'm in the process of setting up another grow over the next couple of weeks, so I might do a grow log for all to see but i think my main quest is not to show off what i'm doing, but to collect feedback - so I might even give out one or two devices and let someone else grow with it.

 

[Larry3215]

If your investor wants to sell commercially, then he is probably not willing to let you divulge any details on exactly how you are doing this?

If so, that pretty much kills my interest.

I dont know for sure, but I suspect you are going to have an up-hill battle trying to sell pre-built systems to hobby/home growers. Prototyping is expensive. Mainly because of all the time invested in each build. They will be essentially custom builds from scratch. So you are trying to sell an $$ item with no track record. Plus, your moving into a part of hydro growing that has very few people actually doing it at all, and even fewer who are successful.

I happen to be very interested in rotary atomization. I have almost everything I need to build a prototype, but I havent had the time or energy to get going on it.

Rotary atomization is almost unheard of at the hobby level. I only know of one personm who has done more than mentioned it. Atomizer has said that he tried it but there were too many issues. I forget why exactly but i think noise was one of them. Over on OG there was some discussion, but it hasnt gone anywhere that I know of - or was that you?

There was a "study" done a while back that was almost as much sales pitch as experimentation. I have a copy of it somewhere on my computer if you are interested.

Anyway, I would love to know how you are implementing the rotary atomization as well as the electrcal charging of the system. I suspect anyone who is interested in trying this will feel the same way. From what I know of this type of thing, details will be critical and I for one wont be willing to invest blindly. It seems to me you are trying to sell to a very small market of people who tend to be the experimental types. Smart techy people who have seen sales pitches before for new fangled gizmos that never lived up to the hype.

BUT - results are what matter. Good yields and pretty plants with fantastic roots will go a long ways to over come almost anything.

Do you have some completed grow cycles that you can share some pics from? Without pics, it didnt happen

 

[Larry3215]

Sorry for coming across so negatively. Hate to rain on anyones parade. I think rotary atomization has potential if you can truely solve the issues in implementation. You are going to have to prove it though.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck!

 

[fmx1988]

No need to apologize, I really appreciate any feedback - even if it hurts my ego! haha

Well I have already filed the patent application for the key aspects of the rotary atomizer and high voltage electric fields, but there are other aspects which we are in the process of filing for, so you are right in thinking I can't disclose everything at this stage. However it will only be a matter of weeks before I can start talking in-depth about everything, which is a fairly small amount of time in comparison to time it's taken to get this far.

I wish it was as easy as proving good yields and pretty plants, but I think success in the hobbyist market will be a lot more difficult than that - not just to sell a few, but to actually achieve a level of saturation within the market that makes it worthwhile. I really don't want to rely on marketing to sell products all the time, but to eventually become known as a real alternative to conventional Aeroponics which are unreliable and complicated.

To give you some insight into the technology so far, I could give you my company website details which covers a lot of the basics, but i don't know if that's allowed on this site? However, I'm happy to share some of the more tech stuff with you, that you won't find on my website (perhaps Atomizer may be interested in this too?).

So for instance, rotary atomizers are definitely noisy in general, unless of course you design it not to be so the key here was optimizing the rotary atomizer to use as little rpm as possible (velocity is the most in-efficient way of achieving our goal) and shaping the rotary atomizer to physically push the droplets in all the directions you want and using fan blades to compliment this action (not depend on it). Reducing turbulence within the airflow is by far the hardest part of this project btw!

I also needed to incorporate the rotary atomizer into the design of the custom built motor so that we could have a large enough hollow shaft that allowed for an inner and outer shaft composed of the right materials to allow for motor efficiency, electrostatic charging of the droplets and for the liquid to travel to the atomizer. I than built a FOC motor controller that is in tune with the motor and produces a sinusoidal wave to reduce motor noise/heat and increase efficiency.

I'm really happy with the end result, but the aim is provide a real alternative to Aeroponics which is easy to use, but also much more reliable. So for instance, to help improve the reliability of the system, we measure the back EMF, inertia and friction of the motor to help predict any issues, such as, if the motor has fluctuations in friction/speed in the start up phase, (which is invisible to the naked eye), the firmware will track this inconsistency over time and will notify the user. There's many other features to help reliability, but I've already wrote an essay so far haha

I would be interested in learning about the problems you and Atomizer had that's prevented you from experimenting with rotary atomizers - maybe I could help provide some insight?

 

[fmx1988]

@Atomizer I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on rotary atomizers and some of the problems you faced? Would be nice to learn from some of your experiences and get some feedback on what you think to the potential of such a thing within the hobbyist market?

 

[DaFreak]

I personally would give a great deal of effort and time to convince anybody of not spending any money on anything that stupid. But I am open to letting you convince me I am wrong. Show us a pic of your vastly superior plants that makes such nonsense worth it. What kind of yield are you getting? Heads up though, pretty easy to find a pic of a monster plant in a pot with dirt.

 

[fmx1988]

Yeah cheers buddy, i guess that's some kind of feedback that i wanted haha Although i don't see much useful feedback beyond you think it's stupid.

Either way it's definitely beyond any growth rate you can find in dirt... that's just obvious! I'm not trying to say it's 10x bigger yields than any other system, I'm trying to take all of the negatives of conventional Aeroponic systems and improve upon it so that it's easy to use and much more reliable. Also I want it so that people with basic DIY skills are able to incorporate advanced technology (that they can't build easily) and incorporate it with their own system (that they can build). Hopefully this will provide the best of both worlds in terms of better growing experience and value for money - whether there is desire for this in the hobbyist market, is a different matter entirely and exactly why i'm here.

I haven't got a license for growing Marijuana in the UK at the moment, but something I will be pursuing after we finish our latest trial (seed potatoes, chili and lettuce plants). I'd be happy to share pictures at that point though!

Also, it's probably worth pointing out you will never get monster plants in Aeroponics, it's just not suitable for the huge roots that come with such big plants. It's fairly easy to get 50oz a plant consistently in DWC systems, but would amazed to see it in Aeroponics, or even dirt pot plants for that matter!

Would be nice if you can expand on why you think it's so stupid though?

 

[DaFreak]

Spending money and time on something that doesn’t increase productivity is stupid.

 

[rkymtnman]

Do you have some completed grow cycles that you can share some pics from? Without pics, it didnt happen

This right here.

 

[fmx1988]

Ahh ok, I got you. So a side by side grow lapse would go along way to proving the technology in regards to growth rates - but obviously that could be rigged. Maybe giving out a couple of devices to some growers would be a good way to go about it? In the mean time, we are partnered up with an independent research body here in the UK that will be conducting trial grows on Chili plants from September onward doing the following...

• Recording of water consumption of each setup (Weekly)
• Recording of Ph and EC fluctuations (Tuesday and Friday)
• Overhead photographs of plants (weekly)
• Photosynthesis and stomatal conductance (every fortnight)
• SPAD (soil plant analysis development) measurements (weekly)
• Canopy diameter (Weekly)

And collecting the destructive data:

• Photographs of shoot and root
• Shoot fresh weight
• Root dry weight
• Root length
• foliar nutritional analysis, which assesses the concentrations of all macro and micro-nutrient elements (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S, Fe, Mn, Cu, B, Zn, Mo).
• Data analysis and reporting

I would be interested in learning what you guys think would be the best way of marketing the growth rates to the hobbyist market? Also is it really just about yield? I thought what with Aeroponics being such a small segment of the market, that perhaps reliability should be no.1 priority?

 

[rkymtnman]

Ahh ok, I got you. So a side by side grow lapse would go along way to proving the technology in regards to growth rates - but obviously that could be rigged. Maybe giving out a couple of devices to some growers would be a good way to go about it? In the mean time, we are partnered up with an independent research body here in the UK that will be conducting trial grows on Chili plants from September onward doing the following...

• Recording of water consumption of each setup (Weekly)
• Recording of Ph and EC fluctuations (Tuesday and Friday)
• Overhead photographs of plants (weekly)
• Photosynthesis and stomatal conductance (every fortnight)
• SPAD (soil plant analysis development) measurements (weekly)
• Canopy diameter (Weekly)

And collecting the destructive data:

• Photographs of shoot and root
• Shoot fresh weight
• Root dry weight
• Root length
• foliar nutritional analysis, which assesses the concentrations of all macro and micro-nutrient elements (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S, Fe, Mn, Cu, B, Zn, Mo).
• Data analysis and reporting

I would be interested in learning what you guys think would be the best way of marketing the growth rates to the hobbyist market? Also is it really just about yield? I thought what with Aeroponics being such a small segment of the market, that perhaps reliability should be no.1 priority?

it's not just about yield but that's top 3. i'd say growth rate is number 1 IMO. if i could save a week or two of veg, that means time and money saved. and if your main market is commercial, that's what they would look for. "how do i get my product in a jar to the buyer as fast as possible"

 

[Minirex]

Anything that takes that much thought and energy is impressive.Im a mechanic cars mostly but gas powered engines of all kinds.I like to read and watch alot of inventors and ideas and 1 thing that's for sure is many great innovations have come as mistakes while trying to create something new.many a wonderful idea was uncovered by minds just like yours .it's very interesting and look forward to seeing your results.And no matter if they are astounding or average I love the fact that you are committed.I hope you have success with this nonsense as the other member so nicely put it....lol goodluck

 

[DaFreak]

Ahh ok, I got you. So a side by side grow lapse would go along way to proving the technology in regards to growth rates - but obviously that could be rigged. Maybe giving out a couple of devices to some growers would be a good way to go about it? In the mean time, we are partnered up with an independent research body here in the UK that will be conducting trial grows on Chili plants from September onward doing the following...

• Recording of water consumption of each setup (Weekly)
• Recording of Ph and EC fluctuations (Tuesday and Friday)
• Overhead photographs of plants (weekly)
• Photosynthesis and stomatal conductance (every fortnight)
• SPAD (soil plant analysis development) measurements (weekly)
• Canopy diameter (Weekly)

And collecting the destructive data:

• Photographs of shoot and root
• Shoot fresh weight
• Root dry weight
• Root length
• foliar nutritional analysis, which assesses the concentrations of all macro and micro-nutrient elements (N, P, K, Ca, Mg, S, Fe, Mn, Cu, B, Zn, Mo).
• Data analysis and reporting

I would be interested in learning what you guys think would be the best way of marketing the growth rates to the hobbyist market? Also is it really just about yield? I thought what with Aeroponics being such a small segment of the market, that perhaps reliability should be no.1 priority?

Yes, it’s all about yield and nothing else. But as mentioned above, yield over time. Reliability is a pot filled with dirt. Till you can come back with pics and data that shows your system saves time and produces more yield over a year or two you are wasting your breath. And to be honest, I’ve seen this thread in one form or another for over 20 years. Somebody always trying to make a buck off of growers by convincing them they have the new secret sauce, they never do. 10s of thousands of growers who’s only goal is to produce better and more weed quicker, if there was anything that proved to be better, believe me they would flock to it.

 

[Minirex]

seems to me plenty of money is being made every which Way the actual weed seems to be an afterthought these days.

 

[DaFreak]

I don’t think so, everybody is a pot snob these days. You got to have the terps, bag appeal and high to please people these days. Fcking kids pulling out luppes to check their dime bag.

 

[fmx1988]

it's not just about yield but that's top 3. i'd say growth rate is number 1 IMO. if i could save a week or two of veg, that means time and money saved. and if your main market is commercial, that's what they would look for. "how do i get my product in a jar to the buyer as fast as possible"

Thanks for your feedback, it's really useful. I haven't got pictures which i'm willing to put out at this stage - the ones i have got are just random pictures i took whilst conducting my own internal experiments within the R&D phase. I'm really not here to show off anything at this stage, but gain a better perspective of the hobbyist market and get an understanding of the friction I will face - I learnt a lot about that already haha

To be honest, it will be probably be a while before I have a proper trial grow with Cannabis to show off, but I will have a scientific paper produced soon enough on the Chili plants which will at least be somewhat useful.

@Minirex Thanks for your kind words, I really appreciate it! Innovation is risky and you can never know exactly what the outcome will be, but it's something I enjoy doing and I personally see a lot of value in the benefits that it offers. So from experience, I would definitely prefer this over any other system, but I would be silly to automatically assume it's a business opportunity lol

@DaFreak Yield over time is a good way to think about it - I like that concept! And your right, I would be wasting my breath, if I was trying to sell anything haha I'm really not though! I'm finishing my R&D phase and focusing on the business side of things whilst I start the trials with some of the third parties we've teamed up with.
Personally I appreciate all the feedback i can get before assuming that I have a secret sauce that 10's of thousands of growers will to flock to just because it yields X amount more than the alternatives.

 

[DaFreak]

I started growing 20+ years ago with aero, low pressure and high. It worked but never better than anything else. The first few weeks are always impressive when you see the roots but after years the yields just did not beat easier cheaper ways of doing hydro. I spent a few thousand on my first system but that’s rare I think. You’re talking about a niche market within a niche market. Majority of growers are young people without money to spend, or older people who can grow enough weed with the cheapest equipment to last them decades. Commercial growers are the market I feel, but that’s a tough sell.

 

[Ryante55]

I don’t think so, everybody is a pot snob these days. You got to have the terps, bag appeal and high to please people these days. Fcking kids pulling out luppes to check their dime bag.

That would piss me off I would take the weed back an walk away