Is the Keystone cancelation a good thing?

Cookie Rider

Well-Known Member
I am one to for us to move away from oil as fast as possible. But what is going to replace it? Renewables are well and fine but our societies are energy hogs. Most of the people that say we can ween ourselves off of it do not show how much infrastructure needs to be produced to do it. I would be surprised if we could do it by 2050.

On the pipeline. There is less oil spilled by pipelines than by rail. When I see the tanker cars I see exploding bombs rolling by. And it is worse on the US side as the oil being produced is mainly by fracking. Fracking produces a light oil with a lot of gas in it, not the in your vehicle tank gas but propane and the like. It is the more volatile and explosive stuff rolling by. As for the Canadian stuff, it is more thicker. In fact, to move it through the pipes it has to be diluted. But the weight of the Canadian oil is desired at the Gulf refineries. They were designed to operate with the type of oil being pumped out of the ground at the time. There is a lot of oil being produced in the US but it is too light a grade for the refineries to operate efficiently.

So the Canadian oil is mixed in to bring it into spec. It is then refined and used in the US or exported. So the statement that it just allows Canadian oil to get out into the world market is true. But in its raw state it would not command much of a price. And that is where the refineries come in. They take both oils and when done they add value to both. So the US's balance sheet is less red, your selling stuff to the Chinese rather than only buying. The refineries can do without Canadian oil but they need to buy heavy oil from other countries, Venezuela has the same grade of oil the refineries mix in. So they can buy from Canada or Venezuela.

So pick where you want to buy from, Canada that has a balanced trade with the US (part due to the fact we sell the oil to you, a billion dollars goes across the border in trade every day) or to Venezuela that is not one of the US's biggest customer. Canada and the US trade is greater than the US and China, although Canada buys as much from the US as it sells, China's balance sheet has them buying a fraction.

So what will happen if the pipeline does not happen? The oil will still move by rail, the Gulf refineries need it. Canada will then need to twin the pipeline we have going to British Columbia. The oil will not get refined there, the cost of building a new refinery will never be recouped. The Chinese can justify it because then they can buy oil from Canada or other countries and not be beholden to the Middle East or the Us for refined products. So this oil game will still go on for quite a while. China even bought a 15% stake in the production in Alberta. And it is mainly American money that owns the oil patch up there. We allowed them to come in as a part of NAFTA, we got access to the US market but American companies could come in and buy up our companies. I did lose my job due to NAFTA coming in and a lot of sister plants closing and being supplied from the US ones. I went back to school to start a new career. I know a little of the oil refining end, my trade was in process controls, oil refining as one facet of it. So I know that the oil will flow with the pipeline or not. It is just going to send more carbon up in the air moving it by rail rather than pumping it.
Truth ^
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I have no complaint with how Canada's economy is dependent on it's oil business. I just don't agree that US rivers, sensitive environmental areas and violating native American tribal sovereignty should have a lower status than that oil. Canada has a problem with getting its oil to market. We don't want that pipeline, so look for a different solution.

I don't buy the "but rail cars are more dangerous" argument either. It's all about getting oil to refineries for the lowest cost, more profit for the multinational corporation, yay. When the inevitable disaster occurs, they will leave the bill for generations to come to pay.

I can tell you all I do to cut my fossil fuel footprint but I won't. As you point out, what a person can cut through their own lifestyle choices is a drop in the bucket compared to the consumption of our industrial and consumer goods sectors.

Also, who thinks tomatoes shipped from Chile are worth the fuel cost? Those pallid and tasteless pink blobs should be named something else.
But if you get a large portion of the population to buy in you can make a big dent. It is easy to say my little part does not add up to much. The refineries are operating because someone is buying the oil and gas. The products we buy, what is it you really need in life? We are a consumer based society and until we change our values nothing will change. The reason for the pipelines is there is a demand. We are always going to have some level of oil consumption, as a fuel or to make products from, it is too handy to get rid of. And it will always be in someone's back yard.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Canada; build your own fucking refineries. Oil is a has-been, and this is just a grab for temporary profit. Electric cars will dominate before I die. Just wait for China and India to mass produce them, and they will.
I hope your right and I agree the goal should be to reduce/eliminate fossil fuels. I hope that happens as I watch the tankers roll by :(. As much as the tar sands are an evil dirty industry so are most other methods of extraction. I guess my point was more “is the cancelation going to lead to anything other than more tanker cars lol”?
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Burning wood for fuel is one of the dirtiest forms of energy. Of the carbon based fuels, natural gas is the cleanest.
Agree that there are worse forms of energy than natural gas. Is this then the debate? Build Keystone pipeline or go back to flint knives, stone axes and cooking over a fire?
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I hope your right and I agree the goal should be to reduce/eliminate fossil fuels. I hope that happens as I watch the tankers roll by :(. As much as the tar sands are an evil dirty industry so are most other methods of extraction. I guess my point was more “is the cancelation going to lead to anything other than more tanker cars lol”?
That, I would say, is up to Canada. How it is transported makes little difference to me other than I don't want that pipeline on US soil.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
That, I would say, is up to Canada. How it is transported makes little difference to me other than I don't want that pipeline on US soil.
Fair enough, I don’t want trains full of oil either. With the lack of effort to stop the reliance on oil we have both now.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
I have a woodstove for emergencies

The city has taken down several big trees in my neighborhood over the past few years- they cut 'em into ~16" chunks and leave them on the curb for whoever wants them, which is generally me
I’ve cut wood since I was a young kid as we heated 10 cottages and our houses with wood. I hate wood lol. Actually I like the heat but don’t like the work and dust. Pellets and heat pump now and seriously thinking propane for backup soon. Getting old :(.
 

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Do we need the oil so much? Look around you, everything has been transported in some way. Buildings that have been built, the roads are made of it, all built using oil to drive the machinery. Again, we need to ween ourselves from it but in the next 25 years it will still be a major source of power. All manufacturing leaves a dirty trail unless we go back to only using wood products and streams for power. The US can go back to importing its oil from the Saudis, you did in the past. And that is why the oilsands in Alberta were developed, because we wanted energy independence from the Middle East. Before fracking Canada was the US's way out from the Arabs holding an oil well to America's head.



Right now renewables are 11.5%. Got a long way to go. But you could help by not driving your car, skip all the unnecessary trips. I take my bine as much as I can. I have a car I bought in 2016, it has 22,000 km on the odometer. So 13,700 miles on it in four years. Heck, the car can last me the rest of my life. I am walking the walk, I made the conscious decision years ago that I will not be that big a part of the problem. I do heat the house with natural gas, we have mainly hydroelectric power in my province. And we are willing to sell it to you, but natural gas is cheap due to fracking so not much call for our power.

I doubt there are many people that would go to my lengths of taking a small slice out of this planet. Coming from the resource extraction and manufacturing industry I have an idea what the real costs are to our 'stuff'. Our economy would be smaller if we lived with less, that would upset the apple cart though. Our money system is built on growth. I myself want to leave a small footprint on the Earth. Not that many that think about it.
You burn gas when you could be using clean hydro power? Hmmm, I guess everyone has their price ;).
 

printer

Well-Known Member
That, I would say, is up to Canada. How it is transported makes little difference to me other than I don't want that pipeline on US soil.
But that is just it. The oil is coming by rail now. And it puts much more carbon in the air then pumping it through a pipe. I would rather they follow the existing pipeline although it is farther and would cost more as well as higher pumping costs.


Cushing is a major storage hub, the pipeline between it and Houston can be


The bottom red section began operation in 2014. Canada already sends 550,000 barrels of oil per day to the US via the existing Keystone pipeline.

Crude oil by rail.



Which Is Safer For Transporting Crude Oil: Rail, Truck, Pipeline Or Boat?
Canada’s energy regulator announced in June 2018 that 200,000 barrels per day is being exported by rail. So which mode is safer? For oil, the short answer is: truck worse than train worse than pipeline worse than boat (Oilprice.com). "

"Every crude oil has different properties, such as sulfur content (sweet to sour) or density (light to heavy), and requires a specific chemical processing facility to handle it. Different crudes produce different amounts and types of products, sometimes leading to a glut in one or more of them, like too much natural gas liquids that drops their price dramatically, or not enough heating oil that raises their price.

As an example, the second largest refinery in the United States, Marathon Oil’s GaryVille Louisiana facility, can handle over 520,000 barrels a day (bpd) of heavy sour crude from places like Mexico and Canada but can’t handle sweet domestic crude from New Mexico.

Thus the reason for the Keystone Pipeline or increased rail transport - to get heavy tar sand crude to refineries in the American Midwest and along the Gulf Coast than can handle it.

The last entirely new petroleum refinery in the United States opened in 1976. Since then, the number of refineries has steadily declined while refining capacity has concentrated in ever-larger facilities. 25% of U.S. capacity is found in only eleven refineries. Recently, Shell’s Baytown refinery in Texas, the largest in the nation, was expanded to 600,000 bpd. Most of the big refineries can handle heavy crude, but many smaller refineries can process only light to intermediate crude oil, most of which originates within the U.S.

A rail tank car carries about 30,000 gallons (÷ 42 gallons/barrel = about 700 barrels). A train of 100 cars carries about 3 million gallons (70,000 barrels) and takes over 3 days to travel from Alberta to the Gulf Coast, about a million gallons per day. The Keystone will carry about 35 million gallons per day (830,000 barrels). This puts pressure on rail transport to get bigger and bigger, and include more cars per train, the very reason that crude oil train wrecks have dramatically increased lately.
( https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/10/11/which-is-safer-for-transporting-crude-oil-rail-truck-pipeline-or-boat/?sh=4035d3847b23)
 

printer

Well-Known Member
And why the US imports oil and yet exports oil.

 

myke

Well-Known Member
Converted my gas hot water tank to electric today. I am thrilled to have hot water, was only cold water for the last week. My furnace still has a few years life yet.
I would be curious what the cost difference per month would be?
Ive changed everything to gas over the last 10 years,now if I could only run my lights with NG.
 
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