bobrown14
Well-Known Member
You missed my point. I spelled it out. Not sure why.
We on the same side.
Weed and the police were much much worse in the USA back then. 420% on that.
3 words: War On Drugs.
Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread
- Thread starter headtreep
- Start date
We on the same side.
Weed and the police were much much worse in the USA back then. 420% on that.
3 words: War On Drugs.
m4s73r
Well-Known Member
Quick questions. If you were going to fill a 4x8x1.5 bed for a indoor no till bed, would you fill the whole thing with soil? Or can i say use all the leaves in my leaf bin from this last fall and the second pile from fall 2019. I know that I am going to be needing 45 cuft of soil. based on the amount i have outside that would save me around 15 cuft of soil. Dont get me wrong My local Nursery guy has been dealing with me for over a decade so i can get what i need with out issue. Just wondering if that would make a good base layer. Should I mix it with some aeration material?
I read the last few pages and I would like to say I have been using 170 gallons of Clackmas Coots soil for about 6 or 7 years now. I used to run in 25 gallon fabric bots before I threw them all in a 4x4 grass roots bed. 3 years ago i bought a bucket of nutrients from BAS and re-amended. Otherwise I just waster, grow clover, and feed my soil. There was a guy talking about being worried about not having worms. That would be a foolish mistake to not include worms in a no till. I still see the guys that like to buy all the stuff. Not necessary. But worms are. You could use enzymes to break down root mass or you can use worms. You can add vermi-compost to top dress all the time or you can use worms. You can use cover crops after a couple of grows to break up the soil mass with deep running roots OR... I think we know where I'm going with this. Worms will tell you everything you need to know about your soil food web. I'm not saying you HAVE too. But a 2 lb box of European night crawlers for 60 bucks for all those benefits is certainly worth it. I could be wrong. I been away from the forums for awhile.
what you guys think? Leaves mixed with perlite for a 6 inch base layer? Yay or nay.
I read the last few pages and I would like to say I have been using 170 gallons of Clackmas Coots soil for about 6 or 7 years now. I used to run in 25 gallon fabric bots before I threw them all in a 4x4 grass roots bed. 3 years ago i bought a bucket of nutrients from BAS and re-amended. Otherwise I just waster, grow clover, and feed my soil. There was a guy talking about being worried about not having worms. That would be a foolish mistake to not include worms in a no till. I still see the guys that like to buy all the stuff. Not necessary. But worms are. You could use enzymes to break down root mass or you can use worms. You can add vermi-compost to top dress all the time or you can use worms. You can use cover crops after a couple of grows to break up the soil mass with deep running roots OR... I think we know where I'm going with this. Worms will tell you everything you need to know about your soil food web. I'm not saying you HAVE too. But a 2 lb box of European night crawlers for 60 bucks for all those benefits is certainly worth it. I could be wrong. I been away from the forums for awhile.
what you guys think? Leaves mixed with perlite for a 6 inch base layer? Yay or nay.
2cent
Well-Known Member
Leaf mould is boss bro...
1year set leaf all browned up and black ye?
The mould is amazing use it as main part of ya comPost replacement throw on some worms and u have gold there and areation ofc
Dear ol" Thankful Grower!
Well-Known Member
Hey all Rollie Pollies! new to the thread I currently have a rubbermaid tub with no drainage holes using a no till method I have had up to 4 harvest so far. I have been using biochar and fish composted in my soil. i also been using cover crop as a chop and drop. My beneficial predators are nematodes and lady bugs. Found some anthropods to aerate and break down organic material so plants can uptake them. I also have red wigglers living in my rubbermaid tub. My soil base is Roots Organics 707 and been using this method with no issues so far. Calcium I been using eggshells. I essentially just water just wanted to drop what im doing. If anyone has any organic composted or homemade ideas I can add to improve soil please let me know. I am not using bottled or amended nutrients and like to keep it that way. Glad to join the thread 
m4s73r
Well-Known Member
2019's is all black and brown ye. 2020s still just look like leaves. I was considering putting 2020s down first. then 2019s on top of that mixed with some perlite then coots mix on top of that. Finish off will some nice compost mulch and lay in some clover.
Im not sure what you mean. It'll go in the tent, get filled up, worms thrown in and that will be that. I wont ever till it up or move it. (unless i buy a new house). And the tents location allows me to get to the bed from 3 of 4 sides. one short side and 2 long sides.
2cent
Well-Known Member
U can sub it in the coots mix bro i was told i can use that 2019 at 1/3 and its amazing.
I see no harm adding layers of it. Will add to ya areation worms love it.
U seen the layered wormbins on youtube glass tanks?
They digest layers better thsn a bulk.
Bulk add 34days.
Layers between soil 14days.
Wil be daftly rich in crazy nutes im jealous as hell off collecting now for next year. Mixing with my chickens organic gmo free pooppings increase the heat and add to the sheet.
bobrown14
Well-Known Member
Just a suggestion on the 2x8 seen many folks running them indoors. I use raised beds outside and 4' wide is pretty wide and I can get to them from all sides. You wanna be able to reach to the center. Trying to help ya bro. I'm sure either way will work.
Leaves are a great mulch layer... mulch layer wood be the top layer. Water thru that and the nutrients in the leaf mulch get into the soil and keep the soil more moist so you dont have to water as frequently. win win.... Also your worms will thank you as red wigglers will live under the leaf mulch on top of the soil.
Dear ol" Thankful Grower!
Well-Known Member
What is the leaf mold rich in ?
Leaf mold doesn't contain much from an NPK perspective, especially the nitrogen because autumn tree leaves are made up mostly of cellulose and lignin, and bacteria have a hard time with them due to the lack of nitrogen it would take for them to digest it. So leaf mold is broken down mainly by fungi which is what you'll be introducing by using it, as well as some pretty stable organic matter that will aid in soil texture and tilth. If made outdoors, it can be a great inoculant for a no-till bed because of the fungi, and also you'll be introducing all sorts of detritus eaters like isopods, earthworms, soil mites, springtails... - plus the predators that eat them.
2cent
Well-Known Member
The process of making leafmould uses bacteria and fungi and is a ‘cool’ process as they release enzymes which break down compounds in leaves
Leaf mold is not the same as compost.
Compost is produced by bacterial decomposition. Leaf mold is produced by fungal decomposition. Compost is hot, aerobic, and quick. Leaf mold is cool, slow, and can be produced with little oxygen. This means you don’t have to turn it. Where compost needs a variety of ingredients to attain the right carbon to nitrogen ration to feed the bacteria, leaf mold needs only the one ingredient-leaves. Leaves have a Carbon/Nitrogen ratio ranging from 80:1 to 200:1. There is some nitrogen available, but not enough to allow the bacteria population to explode.
One way to seed the process up considerably is to mow your leaves up as this shredding exposed much greater surface area for the bacteria to work on.When doing this empty the mown leaves out and repeat the process a couple of time to get the best results alternatively pass the leaves through a shredder
Minerals
“leaves of most tress contain twice the mineral content of manure…And they provide the perfect nutrition for beneficial microbes,simply they make soil come alive”.
NPK values of leaf mold are not particully high 2.2 – .8 – 1.6, depending on the tree species but what they do contain are minerals and trace elements.
The roots of all trees accumulate nutrients from deep underground and transported to the leaves. While the nutrients are drawn back into the tree before the leaves fall, most of the minerals remain as they are part of the leaf structure,thereby becoming available in the subsequent leafmould
Uses of Leafmould
Soil Conditioner
Leaf mold serves as a soil conditioner rather than a natural fertilizer. It primarily changes the structure of the soil rather than increasing nutrient levels substantially . Its the fungus, varies type’s of Mycorrhizal fungus grabbing onto soil particles help to bind loose soil, while at the same time the hyphae helps to break up compact soil. The natural growth habit of the fungus will move from the leaf mold to the surrounding soil in all dimensions. Start with a small area of leaf mold, end up with a greater volume of better soil. Leaf mold will continue to break down until the only thing left is stable humus which will remain in the soil for decades to centuries, taking a fire to destroy it. Until then, the leaf mold is rich in organic components: humic acids, carbohydrates and lipids. It is complex and impossible to manufacture. As the foundation of the soil ecosystem, there is nothing better and its free.
Water retention
I’ve read research that leaf mold will hold several times it’s weight in water, upto 4.5 infact and this makes it a invaluable additive on fast draining soils but also for crops likely to ‘bolt’ if the ground drys out to quickly,crops like Lettuce,Rocket and various Herbs
Potting Composts
well-rotted leafmould makes a perfect component in home-made potting compost. It is gentle on seedlings, enabling them to develop a good root system, and is also perfect mixed with grit or sharp sand for bulbs like the lilies to grow in terracotta pots, I also mix it with sieved soil, well rotted and sieved garden compost and sharp sand for our normal potting compost.
For seeds sowing a ratio of 2:1 leafmould /compost
For transplanting seedlings I use 2:2:1:1 leafmould, compost, soil, vermiculite
Large pots for permanent planting 1:1:1:1 Leafmould,compost,soil,sharpsand
Fyi coot drools over it in a podcast.
And most living soil folk seem same on grasscity
Leaf mold is not the same as compost.
Compost is produced by bacterial decomposition. Leaf mold is produced by fungal decomposition. Compost is hot, aerobic, and quick. Leaf mold is cool, slow, and can be produced with little oxygen. This means you don’t have to turn it. Where compost needs a variety of ingredients to attain the right carbon to nitrogen ration to feed the bacteria, leaf mold needs only the one ingredient-leaves. Leaves have a Carbon/Nitrogen ratio ranging from 80:1 to 200:1. There is some nitrogen available, but not enough to allow the bacteria population to explode.
One way to seed the process up considerably is to mow your leaves up as this shredding exposed much greater surface area for the bacteria to work on.When doing this empty the mown leaves out and repeat the process a couple of time to get the best results alternatively pass the leaves through a shredder
Minerals
“leaves of most tress contain twice the mineral content of manure…And they provide the perfect nutrition for beneficial microbes,simply they make soil come alive”.
NPK values of leaf mold are not particully high 2.2 – .8 – 1.6, depending on the tree species but what they do contain are minerals and trace elements.
The roots of all trees accumulate nutrients from deep underground and transported to the leaves. While the nutrients are drawn back into the tree before the leaves fall, most of the minerals remain as they are part of the leaf structure,thereby becoming available in the subsequent leafmould
Uses of Leafmould
Soil Conditioner
Leaf mold serves as a soil conditioner rather than a natural fertilizer. It primarily changes the structure of the soil rather than increasing nutrient levels substantially . Its the fungus, varies type’s of Mycorrhizal fungus grabbing onto soil particles help to bind loose soil, while at the same time the hyphae helps to break up compact soil. The natural growth habit of the fungus will move from the leaf mold to the surrounding soil in all dimensions. Start with a small area of leaf mold, end up with a greater volume of better soil. Leaf mold will continue to break down until the only thing left is stable humus which will remain in the soil for decades to centuries, taking a fire to destroy it. Until then, the leaf mold is rich in organic components: humic acids, carbohydrates and lipids. It is complex and impossible to manufacture. As the foundation of the soil ecosystem, there is nothing better and its free.
Water retention
I’ve read research that leaf mold will hold several times it’s weight in water, upto 4.5 infact and this makes it a invaluable additive on fast draining soils but also for crops likely to ‘bolt’ if the ground drys out to quickly,crops like Lettuce,Rocket and various Herbs
Potting Composts
well-rotted leafmould makes a perfect component in home-made potting compost. It is gentle on seedlings, enabling them to develop a good root system, and is also perfect mixed with grit or sharp sand for bulbs like the lilies to grow in terracotta pots, I also mix it with sieved soil, well rotted and sieved garden compost and sharp sand for our normal potting compost.
For seeds sowing a ratio of 2:1 leafmould /compost
For transplanting seedlings I use 2:2:1:1 leafmould, compost, soil, vermiculite
Large pots for permanent planting 1:1:1:1 Leafmould,compost,soil,sharpsand
Fyi coot drools over it in a podcast.
And most living soil folk seem same on grasscity
m4s73r
Well-Known Member
Um they're brown leaves. Yeah im not going to layer them in the bottom. I may mix some in the sail but being a indoor bed i need to make sure my drainage is on point.
m4s73r
Well-Known Member
This, been using it for years. I have a soft maple and pin oak. its the perfect combo for leaf mould. Soft maple falls early and is pretty green so its got lots of nitrogen still in it. Ill fill 2 black bags with them and throw them in a corner with some sun. About 2 months later the oak leaves start to come down. those are good and brown. those will get thrown in the black garbage bags and completely saturated. tie it closed and poke some holes in the bag, the water will drain out and just be sure to leave em in the sun. come april, the full year and a half later, you got leaf mould.
While you can certainly do this to speed up make sure to have a pile un-shredded. Its different. Shredded leaf mould is finer and will break down completely faster. Un-shredded will get to that nice mould place and retain a larger structure in turn making it last longer. So when you start this do 2 piles. One shredded one not. or even one shredded one 50/50 and one not shredded. Looks at the difference. May even depend on the type of tree your getting leaves from.
Let me say that In my own opinion, and I stress opinion, if you do a no till garden indoors or out never buy peet again. Buy it once if you must to get you started. But after that stop. Id even prefer to do coir anymore. the harvesting of peet is hard on the environment. I do not buy potting soils nor do I ever burn my leaves. Gardening can be sustainable. I read post after post on here of people and their tees, and foiler sprays, Myco powered stuff, this that and the other. Mulch, leaf mould should be all you need to sustain a indoor no till bed for years as long as it was set up correctly. This is why I direct so many people to come to RUI and find this thread. I could go on and on about leaf mould.
Want to know the biggest issue with leaf mould? Not having enough...
Dear ol" Thankful Grower!
Well-Known Member
Nice! Thanks for the info that is exactly what i been missing im thinking since i chop and drop imma chop n drop add some rabbit droppings, leaf mold and add more worms to i also have more biochar i should check on and possibly add some more what are yall using for calcium might add some coffee grounds for a little calcium. Thanks for the knowledge fellas! I got plenty of green and that brown is what im missing
bobrown14
Well-Known Member
Can use both. Rabbit berries are fine either way same as Llama/Alpaca poop.
Leaf mold is the best. We have a partially wooded property and collect it some is years old.
Also make big piles every fall and also layer it into our vermi-compost bins.
Just be sure your trees dont have Antracnose (American sycamore) lernt that the hard way.
bbggkk1177
Well-Known Member
I tried to make my first collection of leaf mould the other day. Not sure if I was successful or not, so I'm just going to try and make JMS and see if it takes.
Dear ol" Thankful Grower!
Well-Known Member
Yes I top dress with fresh and compost the excess outdoors . It is how I charge my biochar grass clippings and rabbit droppings. like @bobbrown14 says you can use rabbit droppings fresh or composted. cool thing about the rabbit droppings is the paper biodegradable pellets that is used with the bedding and is also has straw the worms love it ! Im just getting into permaculture except I probably wont be using urine anytime soon but to each is own. How are you guys mainly building soil? Interested in everyones technique cool thing about this versatile plant are the several different ways each person grows uniquely . I been using leafs as well but never brought them indoors and mainly I covered since I need a cheap mulch to stop the snow from interfering with my worm bin. It is great I learn something new everyday thanks fellas!
bobrown14
Well-Known Member
Can check with your local County Extension Service for your local alpaca/rabbit breeders growers. The rabbit folks will gladly give you their rabbit pellets. Some folks actually use quality wood pellets for the litter so that mixed with poop into compost is killer. The extension service also has soil test kits (in most states).
We live out in the country (now finally) so everything from the kitchen goes into the compost bin we burn the bones and make pot-ash with hardwood add bones to the fire. After a few fires we scoop up the ashes and some into the compost bin the rest go into the garden beds. Top off kitchen scraps with a handful or 2 of leaf mold.... Vermi-bin strategically located next to leaf piles.
If yer in the city or sub-burbs can thro bones and fat around too many rats. Here the rats are fodder for the predators. So everything into compost. Dont have trash collection.
We live out in the country (now finally) so everything from the kitchen goes into the compost bin we burn the bones and make pot-ash with hardwood add bones to the fire. After a few fires we scoop up the ashes and some into the compost bin the rest go into the garden beds. Top off kitchen scraps with a handful or 2 of leaf mold.... Vermi-bin strategically located next to leaf piles.
If yer in the city or sub-burbs can thro bones and fat around too many rats. Here the rats are fodder for the predators. So everything into compost. Dont have trash collection.