sweetsmell
Well-Known Member
LOL well my schooling (to clear it up) was $100,000.00
Detroit Comes Begging ....
- Thread starter ViRedd
- Start date
tipsgnob
New Member
are you sure you would have a job if the big 3 closed and put 3 million people out of work?
Picasso345
Well-Known Member
Lol, well congrats. You must be very valued by your company.LOL well my schooling (to clear it up) was $100,000.00
Dfunk
Well-Known Member
In my opinion if they bailed out these stupid banks what's the big deal saving some jobs. I mean they're giving money to AIG left & right. This is a big deal. You want to see what a few million unemployed people can do to economy? I think enough people have lost their jobs this year. As a final note to those who say we can't afford it - nonsense - Yes We Can(lol). We Will Never Ever Ever Get Out Of Debt. The system operates off of perpetual debt so does it really matter.
tipsgnob
New Member
I am not missing the point. you see yourself as special. an elitist. if an auto worker can have what you have, then you would not be special any longer.
medicineman
New Member
Look Dave, just because you have a thing about your father, don't drag it in here railing against unions. Maybe your father was a lazy fuck.I worked union jobs most of my life, construction mostly, but teamsters in the end. We always made more that non-union in the same trade. In construction there was no such thing as slackers. If you were a slacker, you were gone the next day and someone from the hall replaced you, no excuse was needed to let you go. I ran crews for a few years and Yes, I sent more that one slacker back to the hall. The problem with the big three can be summed up in two words, poor management. They are overpaid, and under smart. They also have the burden of health care and pensions to contend with. If the government would institute universal health care, and the management would pull their collective heads out and make a desirable vehicle, most of their problems would go away. When a worker gets 25.00 an hr and a CEO gets 15 million, I believe the division is way too great. ( In 2007, Wagoner took home $14,415,914, a 41% raise over 2006.)
50K a year is about the minimum one can make and make it, 2 car payments, house payment, 2 kids, insurance, medical, emergency, (Stuff breaking, like refridgerator, air conditioning, washer dryer etc.) Plus, assembly-line work has to be boring as hell, but the wages are better than anything one could change to without a degree, and believe me, having done the night school thing for 6 fucking years while working two jobs, it definently takes it's toll. Unions are slipping away, and with them wages are going down. It was the unions that built the middle class in America. Have a little respect.
TheBrutalTruth
Well-Known Member
The real truth is no we can't, but I do see your point. If we can bail out a bunch of stupid greedy investment bankers there is no reason why we shouldn't bail out the Big 3.
My problem is that I do not see the government doing something to make sure that those jobs are still viable. It is inefficient to bail them out this year, if next year or the year after they are going to need a bail out, because the government can not raise tariffs to give them an advantage, because we are party to stupid useless treaties such as GATT, NAFTA, and WTO.
Does this mean I'm calling for isolationism, yes, at least as far as it takes to increase production of manufactured goods in America.
I personally would rather have more people being able to get jobs than cheap poorly made foreign goods that are likely to contain mercury or melamine.
Screw China, Taiwan, Japan and all those other SE Asian Countries. We need to put our people, and our industries first.
VTXDave
Well-Known Member
An Elitist, right.If your definition of an elitist is one that was raised in a working-class blue collar family whose only home they could afford was an 1100sq ft home in a Mexican barrio an elitist, then yes I am. If your definition of an elitist is one who went to school because they wanted more for themselves and their family, then yes I am an elitist. If your definition is one that has worked for 25+ years and striving for promotions and attaining them because of their increased skills/knowledge by working full-time and going to college at night to obtain a BSCS while simultaneously raising a family....then yes I am an elitist.
Everything I have I have earned. I've never once felt that I was "ENTITLED" to more simply because I was owed a decent living. If I wanted a nicer home, I went out to earn more money...It's that simple. As a bench tech newly married w/ a newborn we bought our first 900sq ft townhome. I wanted more for my family so I learned Computer Science and when a position opened up for a Software Engineer I applied and got the job. Why did I get the job? Because of my skills...plain and simple.
I now have a beautiful 2800 sq ft home on acreage in the rural mountains of the Sierra Nevada and a good job. I earned this. so if that's what you consider an elitist, then yes...I'm an elitist. I tend to see it otherwise.
An assembly line worker that simply put a nut on a bolt is entitled to a decent living I suppose, but not my lifestyle. If said assembly line worker wants what I have, then they should go out and earn it...not have it given to them. The only thing an unskilled laborer should get is enough pay to put a roof over their head, food on the table, utilities paid, transportation. If they want luxuries like what I've FUCKING EARNED THROUGH HARD WORK AND SACRIFICE, then they should go out and do something about their situation. Just because some monkey has 20 years on a line doing the same fucking job for 20 years does not entitle them to any more than what they're willing to strive for. If they're happy doing the same job on a line for 20 years, then their reward/paycheck should be commensurate with the effort they've put in to better themselves. Capiche?
VTXDave
Well-Known Member
I consider a Journeyman Carpenter a member of the skilled trades. It takes a helluva a lot more effort to be a good carpenter than it does for some monkey on an assembly line putting a bumper on an auto for 20 years. I have no beef with folks who have obtained a skilled trade. When my son told me, at 16, that he didn't want to go to college I told him that he should either seek out the military or gain a skilled trade, but I'll be damned if I was going to have a son with no skill and a dead-end job.
VTXDave
Well-Known Member
Yeah I know...I did it, but I eventually got my Computer Science degree.
VTXDave
Well-Known Member
I would not argue that other than it's not the only problem. During the oil embargo (you and I should remember the gas lines, yeah?) Japan made inroads into providing economical autos while Detroit turned a blind eye. That was the beginning of their demise since upper management/executive staff saw no need to change tactics.
JohnnyPotSeed1969
Well-Known Member
Detroit already received a $25 billion bailout. Now they are asking for more. The fact is, that unions have played a part in the downfall of the American auto industry. It should be the responsibility of the individual to ensure that he or she has sufficient funds with which to retire, not the company that he or she worked for. Pension is a joke, and should not be an entitlement.
The American auto industry simply is not competitive labor wise with the rest of the world. Additionally, it has become cheaper for the Big Three to import parts from other countries than to build those same components here. Detroit did not have the far-sightedness that could have prevented their current situation. The energy crisis of the late 70's and early 80's did wonders for increasing domestic and foreign fuel efficiency. Rather than continue to invest in technologies which would further that aim, Detroit lapsed into complacency with the dearth of cheap oil. With American's desire for "space" dictating the market, SUV's are still the cheapest autos to build as far as capital structure goes. It then becomes a cyclical beast, cheap oil spurs sales of gas hogs, gas hogs increase consumption which drives up demand and ultimately, oil prices.
That being said, let all three of them file bankruptcy. Look at the airline industry. The only major airline to not declare bankruptcy since 9/11 is Southwest, but that is as a result of their farsighted capital structure. The other major carriers continued business during chapter 11 protection. Chapter 11 bankruptcy for the Big Three would allow them to trim their operations of wasteful pork; lowering wages, trimming and/or eliminating pensions until they are transferred to a private pension fund in 2010, closing facilities which aren't performing, closing under-performing dealerships, and eliminating some jobs. So a few thousand people lose jobs. It won't be the first time. Maybe those people should take it as an opportunity to invest in themselves and learn a valuable skill by furthering their education. The United States' economy is no longer a manufacturing based economy, and for the foreseeable future, it won't be one. Those who would lose their jobs could assist with the diversification of the economy by learning a new skill.
This sense of entitlement is a major contributing factor to their current situation. A company owes its workers nothing. It does not matter if you've been there for 5 months or 25 years. It is your responsibility to make sure that you have your retirement sorted out, not your employers. Even if the Big Three get another bailout, not enough will change to make a difference. Detroit cannot close the labor gap, and they don't have enough money to sink into R&D to become competitive with Japanese automakers with respect to efficiency.
I leave you with this; I had a 92 Geo Prizm 5 speed, which is basically a Toyota Corolla distributed through GM. It got 40 mpg!!!!! The car didn't die until 06. So a car made 16 years ago gets better gas mileage than anything Detroit currently makes. During the time that I owned it, all I had to do was change the oil, plugs, wires and tires. At 250,000 miles I changed the timing belt. It had over 400,000 miles on it when it finally bit the dust. Detroit doesn't make them like that. Dinosaurs went extinct because they couldn't adapt. It's corporate Darwinism.
The American auto industry simply is not competitive labor wise with the rest of the world. Additionally, it has become cheaper for the Big Three to import parts from other countries than to build those same components here. Detroit did not have the far-sightedness that could have prevented their current situation. The energy crisis of the late 70's and early 80's did wonders for increasing domestic and foreign fuel efficiency. Rather than continue to invest in technologies which would further that aim, Detroit lapsed into complacency with the dearth of cheap oil. With American's desire for "space" dictating the market, SUV's are still the cheapest autos to build as far as capital structure goes. It then becomes a cyclical beast, cheap oil spurs sales of gas hogs, gas hogs increase consumption which drives up demand and ultimately, oil prices.
That being said, let all three of them file bankruptcy. Look at the airline industry. The only major airline to not declare bankruptcy since 9/11 is Southwest, but that is as a result of their farsighted capital structure. The other major carriers continued business during chapter 11 protection. Chapter 11 bankruptcy for the Big Three would allow them to trim their operations of wasteful pork; lowering wages, trimming and/or eliminating pensions until they are transferred to a private pension fund in 2010, closing facilities which aren't performing, closing under-performing dealerships, and eliminating some jobs. So a few thousand people lose jobs. It won't be the first time. Maybe those people should take it as an opportunity to invest in themselves and learn a valuable skill by furthering their education. The United States' economy is no longer a manufacturing based economy, and for the foreseeable future, it won't be one. Those who would lose their jobs could assist with the diversification of the economy by learning a new skill.
This sense of entitlement is a major contributing factor to their current situation. A company owes its workers nothing. It does not matter if you've been there for 5 months or 25 years. It is your responsibility to make sure that you have your retirement sorted out, not your employers. Even if the Big Three get another bailout, not enough will change to make a difference. Detroit cannot close the labor gap, and they don't have enough money to sink into R&D to become competitive with Japanese automakers with respect to efficiency.
I leave you with this; I had a 92 Geo Prizm 5 speed, which is basically a Toyota Corolla distributed through GM. It got 40 mpg!!!!! The car didn't die until 06. So a car made 16 years ago gets better gas mileage than anything Detroit currently makes. During the time that I owned it, all I had to do was change the oil, plugs, wires and tires. At 250,000 miles I changed the timing belt. It had over 400,000 miles on it when it finally bit the dust. Detroit doesn't make them like that. Dinosaurs went extinct because they couldn't adapt. It's corporate Darwinism.
ViRedd
New Member
Excellent post, johnny ...
I agree. The unions have driven the U.S. auto makers out of the competitive marketplace. I read that a basic Chevrolet sedan has $1,500 of union benefits built into the price. A Toyota has $100 of employee benefits built into it's price.
So, now that the unions have, in essence, driven the auto makers out of business, we the taxpayers are expected to pick up the tab. Go figure.
Vi
I agree. The unions have driven the U.S. auto makers out of the competitive marketplace. I read that a basic Chevrolet sedan has $1,500 of union benefits built into the price. A Toyota has $100 of employee benefits built into it's price.
So, now that the unions have, in essence, driven the auto makers out of business, we the taxpayers are expected to pick up the tab. Go figure.
Vi
bradlyallen2
Well-Known Member
I worked at Verizon for 4 years in a unionized environment. It sucked and was a bunch of worthless fat geezers making 60k/year who would sit at the watercooler all day touting their "seniority". I promptly started night/weekend school to get a degree. I hid my textbooks between my keyboard and monitor so it looked like I was working but I was really studying for about 6 hours a day. I would type a bunch of random keys periodically because they had software that counted keystrokes. Because I stayed quiet in my cube I was considered a model employee. Just prior to quitting I called out sick for 4 1/2 days a week for 3 weeks straight, the most you can get paid for without getting fired. I then sent an email to everyone in my global list about how I hadn't done shit in years, how they paid for me to go to college and I was leaving to get a higher paying job, how my manager who wanted to lay us off was an idiot, etc. I changed my voicemail greeting to "Verizon Sucks" and they didn't notice for about 4 months. They forgot to stop paying me for about 2 months after I quit 
Man that was a shitty place to work but I owned them in the end LOL. But yeah unions...bad for business.
Man that was a shitty place to work but I owned them in the end LOL. But yeah unions...bad for business.
ViRedd
New Member
^^^ Yeah, bradly ... I can relate. When I was first starting out, I worked for Southern California Gas Company. They had an open shop, so the union organizers and members were always trying to recruit the non-union employees. They talked me into going to a union meeting one night and that opened my eyes to their game. One of the benefits offered to employees was six weeks of paid sick leave. The entire meeting was taken up by those who I knew were the worst employees, all bitching because we didn't get enough paid sick leave. These were the guys who's only sick days were either Mondays, Fridays, or the days before and/or after a holiday.
Has anyone checked the price of their natural gas bill lately?
Vi
Has anyone checked the price of their natural gas bill lately?
Vi
panhead
Well-Known Member
A shitty place to work,you gotta be shitting me ?I worked at Verizon for 4 years in a unionized environment. It sucked and was a bunch of worthless fat geezers making 60k/year who would sit at the watercooler all day touting their "seniority". I promptly started night/weekend school to get a degree. I hid my textbooks between my keyboard and monitor so it looked like I was working but I was really studying for about 6 hours a day. I would type a bunch of random keys periodically because they had software that counted keystrokes. Because I stayed quiet in my cube I was considered a model employee. Just prior to quitting I called out sick for 4 1/2 days a week for 3 weeks straight, the most you can get paid for without getting fired. I then sent an email to everyone in my global list about how I hadn't done shit in years, how they paid for me to go to college and I was leaving to get a higher paying job, how my manager who wanted to lay us off was an idiot, etc. I changed my voicemail greeting to "Verizon Sucks" and they didn't notice for about 4 months. They forgot to stop paying me for about 2 months after I quit
You come off as if 60K a year is some kinda high falutin income,you must be very young because 60k a year wouldnt afford the average american the ability to own a decent home & car & still have the ability to have any kinda life .
So lets see,you ripped off the company for years by doing zero work,made a personal choice to do non job related school work instead of the job they paid you to do,used all the sick time you could possibly use for reasons that had nothing to do with being sick,recieved & accepted illegal paychecks after you quit,left slanderous messages on your company voice mail.
All of that was a unions fault how ?
You are surely very young,if you hate unions so bad then enjoy an entire lifetime of being replaced by lower paid & higher qualified personal who are just dieing to make you look bad at your job so they can look good,then when you've been replaced a half dozen times & try to retire you'll get the big suprise,that bullshit 401k plan you thought your non union employer was contributing heavily to wont pay your cost of living.
Loafers & milk duds are whats bad for business not unions,strange how you fell right inline with the worst that any union has to offer, then bitch about the lack of quality workmanship you were allowed to perform.
