The second impeachment of Donald trump*

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
This will be hilarious.


It would be a shit show and his followers would love it.

I'm guessing the lawyers couldn't or wouldn't ruin their careers following Trump's choice for his defense, "the election was stolen because I said so". "Lie before Congress, I'll pardon you after the Supreme Court hands the presidency back to me." It's all about Trump and he's willing to crush other people's careers in order to feed his ego. Trump has a lock on being acquitted. Whether he represents himself, finds a lawyer who doesn't care (Giuliani) or he finds a janitor to speak for him, what he wants to do is double down on the lie that he won the election. He will claim he was vindicated after Republicans in the Senate refuse to honor the oath they took. His followers will take his testimony as gospel. We've seen what he can get them to do.

More than likely, Trump sees this trial have the opportunity to agitate for another round of violence. It's my guess that Roberts had a pretty good idea that the person presiding this trial will be in a losing position. Either he shuts down the defense for lying before Congress or he lets them spew Trump's vitriol in Congress and whip his supporters into a frenzy.

We have two years before the chance to get those red traitors out of Congress. I might even start donating to Republican challengers.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
You can bet on it. He’s been missing all the attention.
Contempt of congress can get him 10 years with a trial by the house alone, then there's lying to congress under oath... Donald should just plead insanity and stupidity, at least it would be the truth! I can just imagine him on the senate floor defending himself, no way. Cruz and Hawley, two highly trained lawyers should recuse themselves from the trial and act as his defense, they have no problem with the big lie. That way the senate will need fewer votes to convict Donald if just 98 of them are sitting in judgement.

I think the republicans in the senate will convict Donald, they just want the cover of a trial and witnesses to "change their minds". If they refuse to convict Donald for inciting an insurrection, the DOJ can charge and convict him of the crime a few weeks or months later. There is no double jeopardy with impeachment, the democrats could impeach him again on the same articles after he is criminally convicted. Those republican senators really do want Donald gone for good and impeachment will do it, it will also cut off Donald from fund raising off it. I think Mitch will find those 17 votes to convict Donald, they just don't want to take any heat and death threats for it until they do the deed, hence the fence sitting
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Contempt of congress can get him 10 years with a trial by the house alone, then there's lying to congress under oath... Donald should just plead insanity and stupidity, at least it would be the truth! I can just imagine him on the senate floor defending himself, no way. Cruz and Hawley, two highly trained lawyers should recuse themselves from the trial and act as his defense, they have no problem with the big lie. That way the senate will need fewer votes to convict Donald if just 98 of them are sitting in judgement.

I think the republicans in the senate will convict Donald, they just want the cover of a trial and witnesses to "change their minds". If they refuse to convict Donald for inciting an insurrection, the DOJ can charge and convict him of the crime a few weeks or months later. There is no double jeopardy with impeachment, the democrats could impeach him again on the same articles after he is criminally convicted. Those republican senators really do want Donald gone for good and impeachment will do it, it will also cut off Donald from fund raising off it. I think Mitch will find those 17 votes to convict Donald, they just don't want to take any heat and death threats for it until they do the deed, hence the fence sitting
nope. Republicans aren't going to change their stance. Trump will not be convicted. Authoritarians do not care about anything other than the status of their leader (and themselves).

Trump's GOP Senators will claim the impeachment is unconstitutional and vote against conviction. Trump's defense team will carry the Big Lie but the senators will all be on record of voting against impeachment because it should never have happened in the first place. "Impeachment is for sitting presidents". Doesn't matter if that claim is false, it only matters that they vote against conviction with a cover story that they can repeat with a straight face.
 
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CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
Contempt of congress can get him 10 years with a trial by the house alone, then there's lying to congress under oath... Donald should just plead insanity and stupidity, at least it would be the truth! I can just imagine him on the senate floor defending himself, no way. Cruz and Hawley, two highly trained lawyers should recuse themselves from the trial and act as his defense, they have no problem with the big lie. That way the senate will need fewer votes to convict Donald if just 98 of them are sitting in judgement.

I think the republicans in the senate will convict Donald, they just want the cover of a trial and witnesses to "change their minds". If they refuse to convict Donald for inciting an insurrection, the DOJ can charge and convict him of the crime a few weeks or months later. There is no double jeopardy with impeachment, the democrats could impeach him again on the same articles after he is criminally convicted. Those republican senators really do want Donald gone for good and impeachment will do it, it will also cut off Donald from fund raising off it. I think Mitch will find those 17 votes to convict Donald, they just don't want to take any heat and death threats for it until they do the deed, hence the fence sitting
I’ll bet trump defends himself. He loves attention and there’s no chance the Senate will convict him.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
It would be a shit show and his followers would love it.

I'm guessing the lawyers couldn't or wouldn't ruin their careers following Trump's choice for his defense, "the election was stolen because I said so". "Lie before Congress, I'll pardon you after the Supreme Court hands the presidency back to me." It's all about Trump and he's willing to crush other people's careers in order to feed his ego. Trump has a lock on being acquitted. Whether he represents himself, finds a lawyer who doesn't care (Giuliani) or he finds a janitor to speak for him, what he wants to do is double down on the lie that he won the election. He will claim he was vindicated after Republicans in the Senate refuse to honor the oath they took. His followers will take his testimony as gospel. We've seen what he can get them to do.

More than likely, Trump sees this trial have the opportunity to agitate for another round of violence. It's my guess that Roberts had a pretty good idea that the person presiding this trial will be in a losing position. Either he shuts down the defense for lying before Congress or he lets them spew Trump's vitriol in Congress and whip his supporters into a frenzy.

We have two years before the chance to get those red traitors out of Congress. I might even start donating to Republican challengers.
https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2017/03/what-are-the-penalties-for-lying-to-congress.htmlScreen Shot 2021-01-31 at 1.32.17 PM.png
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
nope. Republicans aren't going to change their stance. Trump will not be convicted. Authoritarians do not care about anything other than the status of their leader (and themselves).

Senators will claim the impeachment is unconstitutional and vote against conviction. Trump's defense team will carry the Big Lie but the senators will all be on record of voting against impeachment because it should never have happened in the first place. "Impeachment is for sitting presidents". Doesn't matter if that claim is false, it only matters that they vote against conviction with a cover story that they can repeat with a straight face.
You could be right, the "can't convict because he's no longer president" lie is emerging and it was the defense his legal team was angling for. It looks like they want to give him a pass and this is the way they want to do it, if Donald is smart enough and I don't think he is. It would provide the best cover for them with the base and public, even though it is not a valid argument.

However even if convicted and imprisoned, Donald still remains a threat to the establishment republicans, he could run for the nomination from his prison cell and would. The next republican presidential nominee would have to promise a pardon for Trump and perhaps make him their running mate! An impeachment conviction is useful to Mitch and others, but it might not be worth the political cost with the base. No one rides Donald's wild elephant until Donald is gone and silenced. Another factor is he might be criminally charged and convicted of the same crime in a matter of weeks or months after his senate acquittal.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Trump will get off because of free speech, he did not tell them they should break in and riot but rather they should protest as is their right. He honestly believes that the election was stolen as he fires any that do not amplify his miss belief. So he is a poor judge of reality defense will get him off with the senators.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Trump will get off because of free speech, he did not tell them they should break in and riot but rather they should protest as is their right. He honestly believes that the election was stolen as he fires any that do not amplify his miss belief. So he is a poor judge of reality defense will get him off with the senators.
He is going to get off having his impeachment voted for by the senate because the Republicans are not going to grow a spine and do the right thing in large enough numbers to matter.

It has nothing to do with free speech, you can't plan and execute a 'storming of the capital' and pretend that 'what you see and hear, is not what is happening'.


Im so glad this idiot conman is gone.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Trump will get off because of free speech, he did not tell them they should break in and riot but rather they should protest as is their right. He honestly believes that the election was stolen as he fires any that do not amplify his miss belief. So he is a poor judge of reality defense will get him off with the senators.
We will soon see, if he goes with the I won the election defense or with the too late to impeach him defense. It kinda looks like that is the path they will give him and it offers them the most cover with the base and public. I dunno if Donald is smart enough to get it though, it's come down to the "big lie" now and Donald wants the senate to stand with him in it. We will see how big a show the trial is, the congress was both witness and victim here too. He is having trouble finding lawyers who want to argue the big lie they lost before the SCOTUS again before the senate. Also inciting insurrection is a crime too and if the senate acquits him a jury won't a few months later.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
You could be right, the "can't convict because he's no longer president" lie is emerging and it was the defense his legal team was angling for. It looks like they want to give him a pass and this is the way they want to do it, if Donald is smart enough and I don't think he is. It would provide the best cover for them with the base and public, even though it is not a valid argument.

However even if convicted and imprisoned, Donald still remains a threat to the establishment republicans, he could run for the nomination from his prison cell and would. The next republican presidential nominee would have to promise a pardon for Trump and perhaps make him their running mate! An impeachment conviction is useful to Mitch and others, but it might not be worth the political cost with the base. No one rides Donald's wild elephant until Donald is gone and silenced. Another factor is he might be criminally charged and convicted of the same crime in a matter of weeks or months after his senate acquittal.
We call his lies for what we can see they are: lies. More than 30,000 of them. The press calls most of his lies "misleading or false statements" because they don't want to get caught up in a libel lawsuit.

The bar for perjury is proving he knowingly or willingly made a statement that he knew was false. Clinton was caught in making a lie to congress because it was impossible for him to not know he had sex with "that woman" when he said otherwise to congress. Bagojevich was caught because there was a recording of him demanding money in exchange for a Senate seat (or something like that) and then he said otherwise under oath. Has Trump ever contradicted himself over the election results? Can one prove he knowingly lied if he says the election was fraudulent? It IS a lie, we know that. The standard for proving perjury in court is higher than that. I hope there is tangible proof that he lied but I haven't seen any.

In any case, this will be a political show and his followers will be even more prone to violence regardless of the outcome. He will lose some, who simply can't suspend their disbelief any longer. The majority that stick with him will be enraged. They will become even more enraged after 2022, when the Republican party shrinks its representation in Congress due to the 10% or so who simply can't support them any longer.
 
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printer

Well-Known Member
He is going to get off having his impeachment voted for by the senate because the Republicans are not going to grow a spine and do the right thing in large enough numbers to matter.

It has nothing to do with free speech, you can't plan and execute a 'storming of the capital' and pretend that 'what you see and hear, is not what is happening'.


Im so glad this idiot conman is gone.
That will be their excuse, the real reason is as you say. They have no spine and others who feel they can still gain politically from supporting him in front of his minions.

I think he should defend himself. He could spout off as he does, round in circles. In the end the Republican senators would vote to acquit him and it be shown as a sham trial. Not that he or the senators would care. Or his followers. Show the Republicans for what they are, for history sake. Trump would feel smarter than everyone else because he got off without dumb lawyers.
 
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hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I think to the quack doctor (Simone Gold) saying that her speech (that was supposed to be after Trump) and about a dozen other speeches were canceled as something that they could nail Trump to the wall with.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/january-6th-2021.1041453/post-16068391

Since his first impulse will be to lie, it will be hard for him to not slip up on shit like that.

And would be something that the congress/FBI could easily do a follow up investigation, and none will be there to pardon Trump or save him if he is representing himself and lies in something easily proven.

idk, I am not a lawyer so can be wrong. But I think to how stupid he is and can't see him not getting caught lying.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
That will be their excuse, the real reason is as you say. They have no spine and others who feel they can still gain politically from supporting him in front of his minions.

I think he should defend himself. He could spout off as he does, round in circles. In the end the Republican senators would vote to acquit him and it be shown as a sham trial. Not that he or the senators would care. Or his followers. Show the Republicans for what they are, for history sake. Trump would feel smarter than everyone else because he got off without dumb lawyers.
We really don't have a choice, do we? Trump had to be impeached because he rallied a mob to attack Congress. Democrats have to stage a trial because he rallied a mob to attack Congress. This is what the rule of law means. We had to charge and prosecute him because it is the right thing to do. It's up to Republicans now and they are saying they intend to do the wrong thing.

Not surprised.
 

zeddd

Well-Known Member
We really don't have a choice, do we? Trump had to be impeached because he rallied a mob to attack Congress. Democrats have to stage a trial because he rallied a mob to attack Congress. This is what the rule of law means. We had to charge and prosecute him because it is the right thing to do. It's up to Republicans now and they are saying they intend to do the wrong thing.

Not surprised.
No harm in sending it to the legal system to evaluate it’s seriousness/criminality, surely law and order republicans trust the law?
 

Mr_X

Well-Known Member
charge: inciting a riot
intent: inciting a riot at the capitol
cause: incited a mob through public speech and tweets
effect: multiple arrests, injuries, deaths, and other criminal activities
evidence: lots of clear and convincing evidence
witnesses: lots liable witnesses
documentation: lots of those as well
the court has a reason to believe that trump is guilty of inciting a mob at capitol hill with clear and convincing evidence. burden of proof is there.
 

CunningCanuk

Well-Known Member
As @Fogdog said earlier, most Republican Senators will take the approach below and trump will be acquitted no matter what he says or does.

One day he may have to deal with the consequences for his lies, but it won’t be in the Senate.


GOP senator: Trump's inexcusable behavior may not be subject to conviction

 

Sofa King Smoooth

Well-Known Member

Here's what happens to a Repulican that shows a little balls. He is accused of being possed by the devil.

No shit.

This is real life. Not some parody movie. Although shit is starting to resemble children of the corn
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
https://apnews.com/article/house-dems-trump-testify-impeachment-8fd6b9f5724f48cc0f4e045ec8c37000
Screen Shot 2021-02-04 at 8.37.25 PM.png
WASHINGTON (AP) — House Democrats on Thursday asked Donald Trump to testify under oath for his Senate impeachment trial, challenging him to respond to their charge that he incited a violent mob to storm the Capitol. A Trump adviser said the former president won’t testify.

Although Democrats might not have the power to force Trump’s testimony, the request from House impeachment managers is part of their overall effort to put the violent events of Jan. 6 on the record for history and hold him accountable for his words. Democrats will be able to use his refusal to testify against him as they argue that the ex-president has avoided responsibility for his actions.

Hours after the Democrats’ request was revealed, Trump adviser Jason Miller dismissed the trial as “an unconstitutional proceeding” and said the former president would not testify. Separately, Trump’s lawyers denounced the request as a “public relations stunt.”

The impeachment trial starts Feb. 9. Trump, the first president to be impeached twice, is charged with inciting an insurrection on Jan. 6, when a mob of his supporters broke into the Capitol to interrupt the electoral vote count. Five people died. Before the riot, Trump had told his supporters to “fight like hell” to overturn his election defeat.

Democrats have said a trial is necessary to provide a final measure of accountability for the attack. If Trump is convicted, the Senate could hold a second vote to disqualify him from seeking office again.

In the letter to the former president and his attorneys, Democratic Rep. Jamie Raskin, one of the impeachment managers, asked that Trump explain why he and his team have disputed key factual allegations at the center of their charge. He asked that Trump provide testimony about his conduct “either before or during the Senate impeachment trial,” and under cross-examination, as early as Monday, Feb. 8, and not later than Thursday, Feb. 11.

The request from Raskin cites the words of Trump’s own attorneys, who in a legal brief earlier this week not only denied that Trump had incited the riot, but also asserted that he had “performed admirably in his role as president, at all times doing what he thought was in the best interests of the American people.”

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With that argument, Raskin said, Trump had questioned critical facts in the case “notwithstanding the clear and overwhelming evidence of your constitutional offense.” He said Trump should be able to testify now that he is no longer president.

Trump's attorneys Bruce Castor and David Schoen responded hours later that the letter proves that Democrats “cannot prove your allegations” and that an impeachment trial is too serious “to try to play these games.”

The lawyers, and many Senate Republicans, have argued that the trial is unconstitutional because Trump is no longer in office, even though he was impeached while he was still president. In a test vote in the Senate last week, 45 Republicans voted for an effort to dismiss the trial on those grounds.

Democrats say the Republicans are arguing process because they can’t defend the former president’s actions, and they point to the many legal scholars who have said the trial is on firm constitutional ground.

Raskin said in the letter that if Trump refuses to appear, the managers will use his refusal against him in the trial — a similar argument put forth by House Democrats in last year’s impeachment trial, when many Trump officials ignored subpoenas. Trump was eventually acquitted of two charges that he abused his presidential powers by pressuring the Ukrainian government to investigate now-President Joe Biden.

The impeachment managers do not have the authority to subpoena witnesses now since the House has already voted to impeach him. The Senate could vote to subpoena Trump, or any other witnesses, on a simple majority vote during the trial.

On Thursday, senators in both parties made it clear they would be reluctant to do so.

Shortly after Raskin’s letter was made public, Sen. Chris Coons, D-Del., said it would be a “terrible idea” for Trump to testify. Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn., said Trump’s statements before and after the attack on the Capitol “are the most powerful evidence. His own words incriminate him. They show his guilty intent.”

South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham, one of Trump’s closest GOP allies, said he thought the letter was a “political ploy” and noted that Democrats didn’t invite or subpoena Trump to testify before the House voted to impeach him on Jan. 13.

Asked if he thinks Trump will testify, Graham said it would be a “bad idea.”

“I don’t think that would be in anybody’s interest,” he said.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Well Mitch would not let the trial proceed when Trump was president. Does that mean that as long as the Senate is in the hands of the party that likes (are afraid of) the president that he can do impeachable things and get away with it as long as the Senate majority leader can hold it off until the president is out of office?
 
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