New Organic Grower - RO vs 2 stage filtration

timmah1979

Active Member
Good Day everyone!

I am trying a new method switching from Fox Farm to coco and mixing in 25% vermipost and trying out the Gaia Green additives. I already f'ed up and learned my first lesson, I pre-mixed about 15 gallons of the above in advance, covering it, only to find some mold growing. Doh! Out into my flower garden.

Anyway, my city has cloramine, funny enough my last run I was bubbling the water not knowing any better and it was a pretty decent run. But now going full organic and wanting to incorporate compost teas, I need to get rid of those chloramines.

My options are full blown RO, stripping out that precious calmag and/or whatever else maybe beneficial. Or, there are 2 stage systems that have special carbon filters that can remove the chloramines, but preserving those precious minerals (or at least they say).

The waste of the RO is a factor, and am leaning toward the 2 stage, but wanted to get the collective wisdom here. I did a search and didn't find too many recommendations.

Thanks!

Timmy
 

youraveragehorticulturist

Well-Known Member
Tim-tim,

Don't fear chloromine, your microbes are tough, and even if the chloromine effects them, they bounce back quickly. And you can always rebuilt your microbe herd with more vermicompost.

If you're concerned about brewing tea in the chloromine, add your molasses/kelp/fish to the water 24 hours before you add the compost. Let the chloromine dissipate itself making the sugars/proteins more available for the bacteria you're going to brew up.

If your water is really, really high in dissolved solids, think about skipping the filters and using Less calcium inputs in your soil mix.

That "mold" on your soil mix was probably just "good" fungus on your soil. That's a good sign in organic soil growing, You should have kept it!

I know Mr Canuck's Coco grow style is So Hot right now, but coco can cause issues for new guys. Consider going forward with Fox Farm + Vermicompost + Dry Nutrients. Or maybe Fox Farm + Vermicompost + Dry Nutes + some coco to keep your mix fluffy.
 

timmah1979

Active Member
Thank you for the quick insightful response!

I got some absorbic acid (vitamin c power) that I have read can neutralize the chloramine, but it was dropping PH pretty drastically, and I got confused of what order to add that, then possibly silica, calmag, etc.

The only thing I don't like about FF is having to wait that 3-4 weeks before I can work in those amendments. Candidly, I jumped onto that bandwagon of Gaia Green before I knew what I was doing, and I have a good amount of it now that I want to use.

Oddly, I top-dressed some FF happy frog that had burned through the nutrients and its doing quite well. And maybe that mix of coco with the FF would give me better drainage as well.

What are those coco issues? I have read be alert for the calmag issues (that's what started this thread), and need to possibly water more frequently.

Part of the reason I wanted to try this is that I feel like I am playing too much the role of scientist. Just want to amend/top dress, Ph and water, and spend time gardening rather than mixing shit all the time.

Thanks again for your help!
 

youraveragehorticulturist

Well-Known Member
No problem man.

Regarding coco, I'm not super experienced with it, I've just seen pictures of Gia/Coco grows with burned up leaves. But if dudes growing in that style for awhile have narrowed potential problems down to watering and calcium/magnesium, their info is probably better than mine. And if you're already on top of it, I'm sure you'll do fine.

Top dressing some all in one dry stuff then watering really is a great way to go. Really easy and not a lot of measuring and adjusting or mad-scientist stuff.

I use silica every watering, but luckily I don't need to mess with filtering or pH-ing my tap water. If you did pretty well during your first grow without stressing that stuff, I would definitely try straight tap water for your organic grow. If you develop issues, you can address them then.

Hopefully some other dudes will chime in with some insights and give you a broader perspective.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the quick insightful response!

I got some absorbic acid (vitamin c power) that I have read can neutralize the chloramine, but it was dropping PH pretty drastically, and I got confused of what order to add that, then possibly silica, calmag, etc.

The only thing I don't like about FF is having to wait that 3-4 weeks before I can work in those amendments. Candidly, I jumped onto that bandwagon of Gaia Green before I knew what I was doing, and I have a good amount of it now that I want to use.

Oddly, I top-dressed some FF happy frog that had burned through the nutrients and its doing quite well. And maybe that mix of coco with the FF would give me better drainage as well.

What are those coco issues? I have read be alert for the calmag issues (that's what started this thread), and need to possibly water more frequently.

Part of the reason I wanted to try this is that I feel like I am playing too much the role of scientist. Just want to amend/top dress, Ph and water, and spend time gardening rather than mixing shit all the time.

Thanks again for your help!
CalMag issues with Coco are typically because of people using RO water, which is devoid of any minerals (including Calcium and Magnesium). Most municipal (and even private well) water supplies will typically have Calcium and/or Magnesium in it.

Typically, for those of us that use tap water, the only reason CalMag supplements should be used is if we can confirm that both our water and organic inputs are devoid of Calcium and/or Magnesium. Seeing as most soil recipes call for (or already include) Gypsum, Lime, or Oyster Shell Flour, and most municipal water sources provide Ca or Mg, any problems are more likely than not due to a pH lockout and NOT a deficiency. That pH lockout is either caused by overwatering, or excessive feeding.

Most common scenario is people overwatering their plants and seeing CaMg "deficiencies", then trying to remedy the situation by dumping CalMag to their roots; when in reality the plants were likely just overwatered and the pH got out of whack as a result.

Pet stores sell a chloramine removal product in the fish section of their stores that are designed for aquariums. It works great for smaller scale grows, anything past that will need an RO system to remove the Chloramine, or a well that doesn't have it in the first place.

While it is possible to have a living soil with Chloramine treated water, it will be handicapped for sure. Sad reality is that Chloramine is designed to kill microbes, and it doesn't discriminate against good or bad ones. You shouldn't worry too much about stripping your water of CalMag because your soil is likely already limed so it should have sufficient CalMag already.

If for some reason the Lime isn't enough CalMag for you (very rare, usually lockout and not deficiency in my experience) you can use Gypsum or Crab Meal for Calcium, and Langbeinite for Magnesium (potent stuff, little goes a LONG way, be careful with it). However, CalMag issues are almost always the result of a lockout.

Your mix sounds just fine, Gaia Green makes a great product that is nice and light. Won't burn your plants, but also provides them with everything they need. Appears to be a very well balanced product. As someone else pointed out, the white mold was in fact a good thing. Your vermicompost must have been of very high quality if it resulted in such quick mycelium development.


I agree on the "playing the role of the scientist" expression, this is why Coots/Cornell U's recipe is so great. The sad reality of growing with a living soil is that your first crop will typically be mediocre. The flavor you get from your harvest will motivate you to keep on trucking, but your yields will likely be mediocre.

This has nothing to do with how "good" or "bad" anyone is, everyone has not only a different growing environment, but also different access to materials, different water supply, etc.

Point is, its very rare to come across two identical grows because of all the variables involved, many of which are outside of our control. So, with that in mind, the whole purpose is to start with a basic template (the Coots/Cornell recipe) and simply observe how it reacts in our respective environments/situations. Afterward, we make the necessary adjustments until, ideally, we're able to take the laissez-faire approach and simply let it be.

Rather than try to "fight" against things, we use them to our advantage. My particular example would be the removal of Dolomite Lime, Oyster Shell Flour, Gypsum, and Crab Meals due to the Calcium content in my well water supply. Rather than attempt to neutralize the Calcium in my water, I used what is natural to my advantage. I simply removed the Calcium/buffer inputs from the template soil recipe, and problem solved. No need to spend tons of money on a RO setup I don't need, instead I can save money by not having to purchase the 3-4 aforementioned ingredients.

There is no "one size fits all" here, unfortunately. However, many of us have more at our disposal than we realize. Some of us don't need as much perlite/aeration due to having sand/clay in our backyards (such as myself). Others might not need as much compost because their top soil is already thriving with life.

Suppose the point I'm trying to make here is don't go for 100% perfection on your first try.

A bit more about Coco. Coco is a great introductory medium, however it doesn't facilitate the same CEC as Peat does. The reason Coco is great is because its forgiving. You can forget to water Coco and you won't really see any consequences. If you aren't on top of watering with peat moss though, you'll have all sorts of dry spots. Peat is amazing, but a mediocre coco based mix will beat a mediocre peat based mix every time due to the lack of dry spots/better water retention.

tl;dr: just use what you have, see what happens, and make the necessary adjustments. This will be different for everyone. Hope the info was useful.
 

timmah1979

Active Member
@kratos015 wow thank you for this, I will definitely have to read this a couple times to take it all in.

When you said 'treated water' did you mean the pet store solution, for something like absorbic acid/vitamin c powder (which I have)? Or is that a catch all for even the filters and RO approach as well?

As you noted there are so many variables that one decision could lead to another set of variables and on and on. KISS approach again. I almost question if I shouldn't just do what was successful before and use the FF approach. But its quite enjoyable to experiment and besides, I have all this Gaia Green haha :)

And to your point, I am not expecting to pump out med grade high yield the first run(s). But I am confident that I won't kill anything and will get something decent out of it, but learn from it in the process.

For example, what also led to the coco was a bad experience I had using some FF along with some smaller 2 gal platstics (I used 5 gal fabric prior). No good drainage, I probably overwatered and cause some type of lockout, then had some root aphids on and on. So wiped the slate clean, picked up some good gear and have them going in coco. 11/12 germ rate and holding out hope for the last :)

As I said I really appreciate the write up that took time and effort and its noted!

Have a great weekend
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Happy to help.

The aquarium stuff works great for small scale tent grows. Anything larger than that, it'll be more trouble than its worth.

What I mean by "treated water" is your actual water source itself. Most people are on municipal water, which will always not only be treated with Chloramine but also have other minerals in it as well. However, here's why I mentioned "water" as an independent variable and also pointed out my Calcified water issue in my earlier post.

Depending on what is in your water in terms of minerals, it could either result in salt buildups and/or pH swings in your grow after consistent enough use. Consider that salts aren't just table salts we normally think of. If a mineral is not water soluble, said mineral won't be able to come out of your soil in the form of runoff. Instead, whatever parts of these minerals cannot be absorbed by either the plant or bonded to the substrate via CEC, they will remain in your soil medium in the form of salts. These salts buildups take a while to manifest, usually after weeks of consistent watering. Depending on what the salt buildup is, you'll experience issues.

Intimate knowledge of one's own water supply is one of the first things every grower should know. Upon examination of one's water report, we all have one of two choices we can make that will be entirely dependent on the contents of the water. Some water is very alkaline, others heavily calcified, some copper, and of course the Chloramine.

1) Go RO
2) Work with your water.

Thankfully, tap water will usually work fine for most of us. Though sometimes it does come with a bit of adjusting.

The most common pitfalls to look for in your water report would be the Calcium content, and "hardness" which typically is found as "Hardness as Calcium Carbonate" or something similar.

Calcium in water will only be a problem if your soil already has tons of Ca inputs in it, and some of these recipes do have a lot of Ca. Excess Ca = Mg+K lockout, and likely alkaline pH (7.5+).

Hardness should also be considered, as water that has "hardness as Calcium Carbonate" will also cause high pH (8.0+).

A very simple pH test can tell you about your water, if your tap water's pH is anything above a 7.0 pH your water is likely hard. With hard water, you'll either need to go RO, or you'll need to take it easy on the Calcium and Lime inputs.

The people that say "You don't need to worry about pH in organics" are almost always using RO water. If your water is hard, or has excessive enough minerals in it, you can and will have issues.


Experimenting is good, teaches you a lot about not just growing, but growing in your specific environment and conditions.

I haven't used FF soil in nearly a decade now, but when I did I always mixed it with perlite because FF soils never have enough drainage. There's nothing really wrong with using Fox Farm soils, so long as you're mindful of their mediocre drainage inputs. I'm just not a fan of spending that much money on soil.

With poor drainage, your issue likely wasn't overwatering. Even if you don't overwater, without proper drainage that water will remain stagnant in the bottom of your pots instead of flowing out of the pots. The result of this is anaerobic conditions, which makes your soil very acidic. Acidic and anaerobic soil conditions also happen to be great breeding grounds for pests, aphids and gnats specifically.

Just like with anything else in life, just stick with what you're doing, keep improving upon things as needed, absorb as much information as you can, and don't be afraid to ask questions if you have them. Plenty of knowledgeable folks out there happy to lend a hand.

All the best.
 

timmah1979

Active Member
This is so knowledgeable and helpful. Thank you again.

My tap ph'ed around 9.1. So quite hard. It seems to me that I need to go the RO route. You mentioned folks saying you don't need to worry about the PH in RO, is only when not adding anything correct? As in, if I have to add in some cal-mag, once I put that into the RO it then will/could carry enough PPM to pickup a proper PH, at which point I want to get down around 5.8-6.0 I believe.

Oh, and that last bean germed. I can manage using RO from my store now but in a few weeks when these ladies are bigger it won't sustain, and I need to get this filter or RO system in place within a couple weeks.

If you are in the states, have a happy 4th.
 

timmah1979

Active Member
Happy to help.

The aquarium stuff works great for small scale tent grows. Anything larger than that, it'll be more trouble than its worth.

What I mean by "treated water" is your actual water source itself. Most people are on municipal water, which will always not only be treated with Chloramine but also have other minerals in it as well. However, here's why I mentioned "water" as an independent variable and also pointed out my Calcified water issue in my earlier post.

Depending on what is in your water in terms of minerals, it could either result in salt buildups and/or pH swings in your grow after consistent enough use. Consider that salts aren't just table salts we normally think of. If a mineral is not water soluble, said mineral won't be able to come out of your soil in the form of runoff. Instead, whatever parts of these minerals cannot be absorbed by either the plant or bonded to the substrate via CEC, they will remain in your soil medium in the form of salts. These salts buildups take a while to manifest, usually after weeks of consistent watering. Depending on what the salt buildup is, you'll experience issues.

Intimate knowledge of one's own water supply is one of the first things every grower should know. Upon examination of one's water report, we all have one of two choices we can make that will be entirely dependent on the contents of the water. Some water is very alkaline, others heavily calcified, some copper, and of course the Chloramine.

1) Go RO
2) Work with your water.

Thankfully, tap water will usually work fine for most of us. Though sometimes it does come with a bit of adjusting.

The most common pitfalls to look for in your water report would be the Calcium content, and "hardness" which typically is found as "Hardness as Calcium Carbonate" or something similar.

Calcium in water will only be a problem if your soil already has tons of Ca inputs in it, and some of these recipes do have a lot of Ca. Excess Ca = Mg+K lockout, and likely alkaline pH (7.5+).

Hardness should also be considered, as water that has "hardness as Calcium Carbonate" will also cause high pH (8.0+).

A very simple pH test can tell you about your water, if your tap water's pH is anything above a 7.0 pH your water is likely hard. With hard water, you'll either need to go RO, or you'll need to take it easy on the Calcium and Lime inputs.

The people that say "You don't need to worry about pH in organics" are almost always using RO water. If your water is hard, or has excessive enough minerals in it, you can and will have issues.


Experimenting is good, teaches you a lot about not just growing, but growing in your specific environment and conditions.

I haven't used FF soil in nearly a decade now, but when I did I always mixed it with perlite because FF soils never have enough drainage. There's nothing really wrong with using Fox Farm soils, so long as you're mindful of their mediocre drainage inputs. I'm just not a fan of spending that much money on soil.

With poor drainage, your issue likely wasn't overwatering. Even if you don't overwater, without proper drainage that water will remain stagnant in the bottom of your pots instead of flowing out of the pots. The result of this is anaerobic conditions, which makes your soil very acidic. Acidic and anaerobic soil conditions also happen to be great breeding grounds for pests, aphids and gnats specifically.

Just like with anything else in life, just stick with what you're doing, keep improving upon things as needed, absorb as much information as you can, and don't be afraid to ask questions if you have them. Plenty of knowledgeable folks out there happy to lend a hand.

All the best.
Hi @kratos015 hope you are well. I still haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I am getting to the point its no longer convenient to run and get RO every other day. These ladies are growing and getting thirsty! So back to the RO vs working with my water. Id like to just go the filter route, but when you mentioned these other things that could affect my decision, I thought I would ask your opinion. I pulled these online for my water, in the second chart I am on the right. Based on this, could I go with a small boy filter with the chloramine carbon filter, leaving in the goodies the RO route would remove? Thanks in advance, have a great day!
 

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kratos015

Well-Known Member
Hi @kratos015 hope you are well. I still haven't pulled the trigger yet, but I am getting to the point its no longer convenient to run and get RO every other day. These ladies are growing and getting thirsty! So back to the RO vs working with my water. Id like to just go the filter route, but when you mentioned these other things that could affect my decision, I thought I would ask your opinion. I pulled these online for my water, in the second chart I am on the right. Based on this, could I go with a small boy filter with the chloramine carbon filter, leaving in the goodies the RO route would remove? Thanks in advance, have a great day!
Damn, 9-10.4 pH though. Pity too, because that water looks great otherwise. Amazing drinking water I'm sure, but with such a high pH that's iffy.

My well water has 9-9.5 pH, you could do an experiment similar to what I did with my water.

Take your water and put pH drops in it, since it's 9-10 pH it'll turn blue/turquoise or whatever the corresponding color is. Now put a tiny bit of plain peat moss in the colored water, let sit for 24-48 hours, and observe the color of the solution over that time.

pH is highly acidic, 3-3.5 pH, you can confirm this by testing with distilled water + peat moss if you'd like. My hopes is that your water will act as a "buffer" similar to how mine does. I personally do not "lime/buffer" my peat moss, as my water does it for me. It is possible your water will react similarly, but ultimately only this test will let you know for sure.

If your water buffers similar to mine, he acidity of the peat moss should hopefully bring the pH of your water down to a perfect 6-7 pH range.

Your other option is to lime your soil as normal, and buy the filter that strips everything from your water in hopes of dropping the pH of the water itself.

As you can probably already tell though, it will be much easier to work with your water as opposed to working against it. See how plain peat moss interacts with your water. If the peat drops the pH of your water, you can just build your own peat moss based soil without having to use a liming agent because your water is doing the buffering for you.

My concern is that the overall ppm's over the water isn't super high (my well water is 400-450ppm, yours looks half that), so there's a possibility that your water may not be powerful enough to act as a buffer. Doing the test above will be the only way to know.

I'm aware of how much of a pain in the ass this all is, but trust me. It is so much more of a pain in the ass finding out all of this the hard way. I used to buffer my soil and use my water when I moved out to Arizona. Worked just fine in California, but out here my soil's pH would always get out of whack after the first month of growth. Fabric pots getting Calcium scaling on the bottom is the only thing that clued me in, I went 2 grows until I figured that out. Had to build a new soil and start from scratch, omitting any buffering agents and Ca inputs from my new soil. Instantly solved my problem.

HTH
 

timmah1979

Active Member
Damn, 9-10.4 pH though. Pity too, because that water looks great otherwise. Amazing drinking water I'm sure, but with such a high pH that's iffy.

My well water has 9-9.5 pH, you could do an experiment similar to what I did with my water.

Take your water and put pH drops in it, since it's 9-10 pH it'll turn blue/turquoise or whatever the corresponding color is. Now put a tiny bit of plain peat moss in the colored water, let sit for 24-48 hours, and observe the color of the solution over that time.

pH is highly acidic, 3-3.5 pH, you can confirm this by testing with distilled water + peat moss if you'd like. My hopes is that your water will act as a "buffer" similar to how mine does. I personally do not "lime/buffer" my peat moss, as my water does it for me. It is possible your water will react similarly, but ultimately only this test will let you know for sure.

If your water buffers similar to mine, he acidity of the peat moss should hopefully bring the pH of your water down to a perfect 6-7 pH range.

Your other option is to lime your soil as normal, and buy the filter that strips everything from your water in hopes of dropping the pH of the water itself.

As you can probably already tell though, it will be much easier to work with your water as opposed to working against it. See how plain peat moss interacts with your water. If the peat drops the pH of your water, you can just build your own peat moss based soil without having to use a liming agent because your water is doing the buffering for you.

My concern is that the overall ppm's over the water isn't super high (my well water is 400-450ppm, yours looks half that), so there's a possibility that your water may not be powerful enough to act as a buffer. Doing the test above will be the only way to know.

I'm aware of how much of a pain in the ass this all is, but trust me. It is so much more of a pain in the ass finding out all of this the hard way. I used to buffer my soil and use my water when I moved out to Arizona. Worked just fine in California, but out here my soil's pH would always get out of whack after the first month of growth. Fabric pots getting Calcium scaling on the bottom is the only thing that clued me in, I went 2 grows until I figured that out. Had to build a new soil and start from scratch, omitting any buffering agents and Ca inputs from my new soil. Instantly solved my problem.

HTH
Always appreciate the intel you drop! I don't remember if I stated this, or how this affects the above, but I am moving to coco. Currently the new gear is day 21, looking awesome and just have been feeding RO ph'ed to 6. I presume that changes everything?

And yes, my PPM was 195 out the tap.

As you stated, I don't want to get to week 4-5 of flowering only to have learned a hard lesson with diminished yield/quality. The other side of me thinks heck, I did this last time with just tap and bubbling (didn't know about chloramines at the time), but I got good yield with OK quality (that's prob on the genetics). So back to the KISS.

I can't help complicate things though haha I am my own worst enemy.

Much appreciate your input!
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Always appreciate the intel you drop! I don't remember if I stated this, or how this affects the above, but I am moving to coco. Currently the new gear is day 21, looking awesome and just have been feeding RO ph'ed to 6. I presume that changes everything?

And yes, my PPM was 195 out the tap.

As you stated, I don't want to get to week 4-5 of flowering only to have learned a hard lesson with diminished yield/quality. The other side of me thinks heck, I did this last time with just tap and bubbling (didn't know about chloramines at the time), but I got good yield with OK quality (that's prob on the genetics). So back to the KISS.

I can't help complicate things though haha I am my own worst enemy.

Much appreciate your input!
It does. Coco doesn't have the acidity that peat moss does, so your water's pH will eventually become your entire medium's pH. Just keep feeding with the same RO water and you'll be fine.

When you used the bubbled tap water, did you notice any signs of deficiency/toxicity that you just couldn't fix no matter what? Easy to tell if you have pH issues. A plant that used to look textbook healthy suddenly starts showing multiple deficiencies and toxicities (typically around pre-flower in my experience).

Wishing you the best.
 

timmah1979

Active Member
It does. Coco doesn't have the acidity that peat moss does, so your water's pH will eventually become your entire medium's pH. Just keep feeding with the same RO water and you'll be fine.

When you used the bubbled tap water, did you notice any signs of deficiency/toxicity that you just couldn't fix no matter what? Easy to tell if you have pH issues. A plant that used to look textbook healthy suddenly starts showing multiple deficiencies and toxicities (typically around pre-flower in my experience).

Wishing you the best.
My last run was my first run in two decades so I can’t really compare. They made it to finish line and did look beaten up but I figure that was just end of life look. I do believe they showed a little ca def I was giving them fox farm at the time. This was full soil run too.

I think the wife wants a water system for the whole house anyway so I guess I’ll do the RO route. I’ll be sure to circle back and keep ya posted. Thanksso much.

take care, tim
 

timmah1979

Active Member
After debating and researching I may try to do a chloramine removal filter rather than RO. My water seems to be pretty decent, I’m gonna have to adjust ph either way, and I won’t waste any water.
Hydrologic sells a smallboy filter and a replacement filter called chlorashield designed to get those chloramines for me.

back to your question on deficiency, again I didn’t notice anything my yield was 4.5 oz dry per five gal pot which I thought was decent.
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
After debating and researching I may try to do a chloramine removal filter rather than RO. My water seems to be pretty decent, I’m gonna have to adjust ph either way, and I won’t waste any water.
Hydrologic sells a smallboy filter and a replacement filter called chlorashield designed to get those chloramines for me.

back to your question on deficiency, again I didn’t notice anything my yield was 4.5 oz dry per five gal pot which I thought was decent.
1oz per gallon of medium is a very good indicator that you're doing something right. Heavier yielding strains can give close to 1/2lb per 5g, sounds like you're on the right track.
 
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