Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

[Kassiopeija]

One of our main issues with Germany right now, main consumer of Russian gas in Europe, is that they are adding gas connections, promoting it as a green alternative to oil boilers. Germany pays people to switch to natural gas, while people here just a mile across the border are forced to rebuild their homes to get rid of gas, replace it with heat pumps and solar boilers. The gas rates in NL are so high this year, the government is handing out money to pay them the taxes cause many families can't afford it.

NL however has a contract with Germany, and our government feels obliged to reopen the pumps to provide extra gas to Germany if needed. If the supply from Russia stop or is merely reduced. While we ourselves are drastically reducing consumption to avoid more earthquakes (and damaged homes and very angry population) and reach CO2 goals. If the natural gas from Russia is cut off, it's not a matter of if, but a matter of how many earthquakes it would cause in the Netherlands.

It's because here in Germany we have put "fracking" gas mining down by law (as it is potentially dangerous) and we also have several policies installed to get away from atomics & coal. But there are not many alternatives, windcraft is killing endangered species, and solar is somehow problematic because the sheer generation of the hardware has also not been much carbon-neutral - although this has become better now in recent times.

And the Russian gas is very economic to buy and much cleaner than the US gas, which even has to be shipped over a large distance. We even had to invest largely into a sub-sea pipeline to actually enable gas transfer because these Ukrainians were not keeping their end of the contract and downright stealing our gas en route so the Russian cut it short.

But trading with Russia will much better serve to ensure peace & keep them moderate because it benefits both parties and aggression may potentially endanger that. And Russia is big enough to be self-sustaining and then when half of the world dont even uphold these sanctions it's pointless to begin with it will only push them more eastern.

Many people here are critically questioning the seriosity of US global policies when they promote their interests so aggressively.

 

[Kindbud421]

So, isn’t this all about the fact that Ukraine land sits on some of the rarest elements used for high tech and groundbreaking electronics? Used in cell phones as well as the cutting edge weaponry? I’d say Ukraine should give Russia exclusive rights to mine in their country explicitly for those elements and Russia, in return would soften their position on Ukraine and leave their people alone. Maybe reduce prices on Russian made goods. Like a “ you scratch my back… I’ll scratch yours. Problem solved and no bloodshed and both factions would be content. Makes more sense than taking it by force and being the “bad country” once again… someone wanna copy this and send it to Putin? Could work. I’m sure the UN would sign off on a plan like that… unless the shadow government wants war, that is!

 

[Jimdamick]

Ummm ya that would be amazing if there was an actual libertarian island of wonderment. Why does “The lord of the flies” come to mind. I would assume Piggy would still be an outlier, you know, science, logical thinking .

 

[Rob Roy]

You really think a Society can flourish/succeed using that ideology, which is basically everyman for himself.

If that's the conclusion you drew from a cursory reading you drew the wrong conclusion.

Every person that's peaceful can and should be able to make their own choices. If a person wants to get with other willing and consenting people and cooperate, the Voluntaryist philosophy encourages that, because it's core principle is ; peaceful people making voluntary, not coerced choices.

In other words, it's not every man for himself. It's no person(s) violates another peaceful person's right to make their own choices. Emphasis on their own, not on others choices.

I hope you reconsider collectivist mindsets that remove choice from peaceful individuals. All politics does that.

Removal of individual choice, from the peaceful person, is the primary ingredient of slavery and violates human rights. It doesn't matter if the removal is by a single person or a group of people. I'm never going to be part of that.

 

[Rob Roy]

Yeah unfortunately Putin isn't going to be on the front lines though.

You really need to get a grip on your Russia Russia Russia phobia.

Were you forced to eat borscht as a kid or something ?

 

[Rob Roy]

And here's a representative of their philosophy, right?

Nope.

Rand Paul is NOT a Voluntaryist, he is a big L, Libertarian, with some Republican views, which means he's involved in coercion based politics.

I don't mean to be rude, but you've lumped a politician, Rand Paul. albeit a very small government politician, in with Voluntaryist people who don't want to prop up human systems which rely on coercion as their primary means.

Meaning, no, Rand Paul and a Voluntaryist are not alike. Voluntaryists eschew the political process, they aren't interested in polishing the turd, like small government types. A dog has 4 legs. A cat has 4 legs. A dog is not a cat.

You see, Jim, I don't believe you and I want different things, I think we both want a world with more peace.

I'm not willing to use coercion based systems to get there though. People who do are either ignorant (not an insult) or willfully deceptive. It's impossible to separate the means used from the desired end. I'm not willing to force my ideas on you if you remain peaceful and aren't forcing your ideas on me. I don't have the right to do that.

 

[K81.UK]

That line about how it's the US's fault.

Putin is demanding we end any alliance with Ukraine or he'll tear that country apart. Then clowns show up to tell us it will be our fault if he does. Russian/Putin are saying the same thing. It's like siding with a rapist or wife beater because "she fault. made him do it"

Fuck that shit. Any country under Putin's thumb gets a horrible and murderous dicktator installed and rapacious oligarchs fuck the population until they bleed. re: Kazakhstan, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan and all the other countries that Putin's Russia has hegemony over. Ukraine is a divided country and parts of eastern Ukraine think their lives will be better under Russian domination. The vast majority know better and want no part of it.

Democracy is a better system than autocracy. The vast majority of Ukraine want that too.

also, lol at your line, "Coupled with NATO missile systems on Russian borders I understand their concern."

The NATO Aegis Ashore site is in Deveselu, Romania, not "on Russian borders".

Then again, so what if it was? Ukraine is a soveriegn nation and entitled to make whatever alliances it wants. Russia's hard nosed tactics are the problem, not Ukraine's desire for defense from rape.

So, yeah,

ha ha

good one

I never said it was the US’s fault?

You are the exact reason why your county if fucked.

Full of opinion, hot air, shit and dumb as fuck.

Romania is extremely close to the Russian border for a missile system, like cuba is close to the us. You didn’t like Russian missiles in cuba.

Cuba can make whatever allegiance they want. Fuckin idiot.

The EU is becoming a unelected superstate like the ussr was. Hoovering up former ussr countries is a recipe for war.

Idiots like you scream about democracy when your last 2 presidents are the best advert against it.

You voted bush in twice too. The man is like a trained chimp.

Do you have any idea how many Ukrainians love Putin?

You are a typical arrogant, uniformed yank who probably doesn’t have a passport.

 

[zeddd]

Kazakhstan unrest: 'If you protest again, we'll kill you'

Activists in Kazakhstan say they are being arrested and beaten as police crack down after unrest.

www.bbc.com

This is why Ukraine will not accept Russian hegemony. They don't have to. Putin won't invade.

You think Putin is as rational as yourself? Psychopaths think differently

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

how many war mongers? I haven't seen a single post advocating for war or invasion. Plenty are over-reacting to the fear mongering going on in the media. But stoking fear was Putin's intent with all this. Biden is not exactly damping it down either.

What's your point again?

in fairness, i DO advocate for war, but with russia, and not over what they're doing in Ukraine...they are waging a cyber war against the U.S. and many other countries, and i'm all for bombing the building that houses their hacker headquarters into component molecules, and the more hacker who are inside it when it goes, the better...they're doing harm to our country, and to democracy all over the world, that makes them an enemy worth stopping as far as i'm concerned

 

[zeddd]

If I ever saw that fucker in person, I would edge up to him with a big smile, yell "I love you Tucker" & extend my hand & if he took it, I'd knee him in his balls so hard they would explode.
I really would.

Id give him the old one two, fucking pussyole

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

#1 If you were to tell me 10 yrs. ago that Russia and Ukraine were to engage in the level of bloodshed that is inherently possible now I'd have responded that it was a reach of epic proportions, These 2 peoples are closely interwined thru their Slavic heritage and history. #2 The West needs to sit down Putin and present him the offer of Western investment in his economy to diversify away from just weaponry and petroleum, end result improving the lives of everyday Russians and getting Russia in the West's corner away from China #3 I really hope he de-escalates,any full blown clash here will result in tremendous risks of accidental incidents between Russian air defense covering the ground forces and NATO air patrols bordering the conflict,any shootdowns will put extraordinary pressure to respond or save face for Putin or NATO

very good idea, except for one thing...they're all crooks. that's not my prejudice, thats the word from people with first hand experience, some of them right here in this thread...anything we try to build there will be stolen, re labeled, and sold by the oligarchs...they HAVE TO GO, before any meaningful change can occur, that isn't just lip service coverage for business as usual

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I recently heard Vlad stating Russia can't match NATO's conventional war making ability, he said "Everybody knows this", then he went on to say how modern his NUKES were and that he would make sure there will be no winners. Russian military doctrine actually includes 1st use of Nukes, it's called "ESCALATE to DE-ESCALATE", so kick over the table w/the chessboard on top of it.

thats ok, you can extract gas and oil from underneath radioactive glass

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

You are a typical arrogant, uniformed yank

i think you meant uninformed...
that was the only part of your post that deserved a reply...

 

[Jimdamick]

Rand Paul is NOT a Voluntaryist

I wasn't aware/thought they were all the same.
Sorry

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

Russian gas is very economic to buy and much cleaner than the US gas

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/558655-cleaner-us-gas-can-reduce-europes-reliance-on-russian-energy

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/germany-says-silence-not-an-option-amid-high-ukraine-russia-tensions.html

Germany’s navy chief Kay-Achim Schönbach, who has since resigned, earlier downplayed the crisis, saying that Russian President Vladimir Putin “deserved respect.” Forced to resign.....

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/1/31/ukraine-crisis-questions-germanys-stance-towards-russia

maybe look for some news sources from outside Germany? it seems your government practices some of vlads policies, vis-a-vis russia

And Russia is big enough to be self-sustaining ...

https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/06/30/grand-illusions-impact-of-misperceptions-about-russia-on-u.s.-policy-pub-84845

very long article, but good...this is the gist of it's talking points...

• First, in proceeding with NATO enlargement in the 1990s and early 2000s under U.S. leadership, the alliance ignored key lessons of the Cold War and the long-term drivers of Russian policy—namely, threat perceptions and the lengths to which its leaders were prepared to go to secure the homeland.
• Second, outside Europe, which is the principal theater of East-West confrontation, Russia’s gains have been considerably less significant than commonly portrayed.
• Third, while Russia’s global activism is a challenge to U.S. interests, the scale of that challenge is determined largely by how narrowly or expansively the United States defines its interests in those regions where Russia has expanded its footprint over the past decade.
• Fourth, for the foreseeable future Russia will remain a top tier challenge on the national security agenda of the United States and must be dealt with by the president and his most senior national security officials.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

I wasn't aware/thought they were all the same.
Sorry

they are all the same...a nut is a nut, no matter what shell it's in

 

[PopAndSonGrows]

Well if we're gona play World Police, we can't pick n choose who we play it for.

 

[CCGNZ]

It's because here in Germany we have put "fracking" gas mining down by law (as it is potentially dangerous) and we also have several policies installed to get away from atomics & coal. But there are not many alternatives, windcraft is killing endangered species, and solar is somehow problematic because the sheer generation of the hardware has also not been much carbon-neutral - although this has become better now in recent times.

And the Russian gas is very economic to buy and much cleaner than the US gas, which even has to be shipped over a large distance. We even had to invest largely into a sub-sea pipeline to actually enable gas transfer because these Ukrainians were not keeping their end of the contract and downright stealing our gas en route so the Russian cut it short.

But trading with Russia will much better serve to ensure peace & keep them moderate because it benefits both parties and aggression may potentially endanger that. And Russia is big enough to be self-sustaining and then when half of the world dont even uphold these sanctions it's pointless to begin with it will only push them more eastern.

Many people here are critically questioning the seriosity of US global policies when they promote their interests so aggressively.

I've got some German in my blood,but as a American I'm conflicted by Germany's refusal to spend the proper GDP towards defense in NATO,I don't say this w/hostility because I know the German psyche grapples w/the past,but as an American who sees how superior your social programs are vis a vis my country's and what we spend on defense I can't help but detect some selfishness in Germany regarding this issue. Almost 70 yrs. have passed, Japan is starting to come out of their shell and so should Germany. I do agree that trading w/Russia can tamp down tensions and I even advocate Western investment in Russia to sway them away from China. I just think it paints Germany in a bit of a bad light when they are one of if not THE wealthiest member (excluding the USA) in NATO and they are the stingiest in spending. Imagine if post war the US halved their Military spending for domestic programs, chances that Ivan w/more tanks than God w/millions of Kalishnikovs would have charged through the Fulda gap 50 yrs. ago. Thank Uncle Sam and America's Military commitment to Germany that that horrible scenario was deterred.

 

[CCGNZ]

thats ok, you can extract gas and oil from underneath radioactive glass

No shit, we'll be rubbing sticks together for fire and using clubs and spears and the like while walking around as radioactive,diseased mutants

 

[HGCC]

Not really, but I think it's a bunch of saber rattling anyway. We can send some dudes, Russia can send some dudes, ideally they just stare at each other. I think we have to react somewhat, but ideally it's fairly muted...or we go full tilt and fuck russias shit up.

I think putin sees value in having conflict, russia is kinda fucked up and always in danger of collapse. Better to have your people look outward than inward when things aren't great.