Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

[ANC]

It is such a big fuck up.
I got quite a little bit in love with this neck of the world. Following Baldr as he trecked through easter Europe, visiting places like Belarus, Armenia, Ukraine, Estonia etc... Most of these Ex-Soviet places is a nightmare compared to what we have. People live in abject poverty and a share in a stock market means almost nothing to them.

 

[hanimmal]

And same timeline as referendum in NL about a EU association agreement with Ukraine, where Russia faked a video with fake Ukrainian nazis threatening with terrorist attacks in NL if we were to vote against (which the population did anyway for entirely different reasons, which our goverment mostly ignored, a clause was added and they voted yes instead of veto).

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the reason this particular propaganda is effective is because there is some truth in it. They do have nazi militias, of which some expressed the desire for the type of country the US would want to attack, they did attack lgbt protests, crazy ukrainians attacking gay bars is a thing (majority considers homosexuality as not acceptable), they are quite racist and xenophobic. Making monkey sounds in stadiums towards black players, beating up tourist poc. In 2012 in Lviv 10% of the votes went to an ultraright fascist party (Svoboda). Authorities are known to look away. So why do I not question this is just Russian propaganda? For similar reason we don’t question Mexico has a problem with drug cartels. Way too many people, including Ukrainians who moved west, media and politicians would have to be lying. As Fogdog said a few days ago, it’s not Denmark. It sure ain’t.

Basically despite their good looks they are a little backward in east europe. Not as in retarded, but travelling east means in some ways travelling back in time. That applies to anything from haircuts to views on jews, lgbt, colored people. The more rural areas are worst, as is the case in western countries.

I do not know how the country changed since they voted for Zelensky. Ukraine wasn’t a concern of mine for 6 years and I would have liked to keep it that way. But if most of them were nazis, they wouldn’t have voted for a jewish guy. The conclusion of this article sums it up nicely: “The far right is a problem in Ukraine, but the country is far from a Nazi state.”

Can Ukraine have a 'Nazi problem' with a Jewish president?

Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine is now months long and Russian President Vladimir Putin and his government continue to invoke a "fight against Nazis" as

jewishunpacked.com

It’s actually worse in some neighboring countries east and west from Ukraine…

Obviously in no way a valid excuse for Putin to invade Ukraine and kill innocent people and children. He may just succeed with some denazification though, because however this war ends, the “normal” majority of Ukrainians and authorities will likely be less tolerant towards what Putin labelled them during the war. War changes people. Any Ukrainian nazis left after the war may have to flee to Argentina.

Here in the states we have our own 'nazi's', or at least people who claim that hateful title, we have all sorts of hate groups too like the Proud Boys, different racist biker gangs, militias, etc. There are many reasons that people adopt these hateful, generally from my experience it comes down to who that person's family or friends were during their younger teen years.

So sure I am not saying that the majority of people who fall into these groups are being produced by Russian propaganda.

That doesn't mean though that the Russian military has not been using every example of the hateful shit that they do to give their hate far larger reach than it ever would have gotten on it's own.

Nor that they have amplified the worse so often that it builds a kind of callous so that people have gotten used to seeing it and start to become desensitized to what racism looks like and are more likely to wind up at hate rallies and not associate what it is with reality.

For example, Oregon has nazi's sure, and the Proud Boys out there are a hate group that is highly visible. And you get people who make racist remarks, and teachers coming to school in blackface, examples of gay people being beaten, super racist history, attacks on anti-fascist and social justice groups, some hate mongers even getting elected into office, etc (all very similar to what you are saying was going on in Ukraine), all examples of hateful shit that the Russian military can use to attack our society to paint it as being a nazi state, just like the Russians are doing to the Ukrainian people. But I would not call it a racist state today, even though it could easily be manufactured to look like one.

And moreover, by using the data analysis that they have from the social media platforms, they are able to actually amplify the hate's visibility by connecting like minded racists/xenophobic/chauvanistic/(insert hateful mindset) people so that they feel more emboldened to take their bullshit public. Also using trolls to amplify and isolate actually dangerous people from the ones that would normally be in their lives to help them de-radicalize.

So I think you may have misread what I said with 'just another Russian long term troll' as it meaning that it is ONLY Russian trolling. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that the timeline that is being shown lines up with the attack on our society by the Russian military to drive people further apart and to provide cover for their attack on our democracy. And not that the examples of these people are being used to paint a far worse picture than what it would otherwise have been.

 

[Sativied]

Ha, perhaps russia should denazi russia. first.

fify. And deputinize, and defascistize, yes of course. Perhaps the world should derussianize entire Russia.

 

[Sativied]

So I think you may have misread what I said with 'just another Russian long term troll' as it meaning that it is ONLY Russian trolling.

Yes, I did read it like that but then I know not to take things written here as absolutes. The reason I typed that out, while really not wanting to fuel it at a time like this, is one of the main tactics in Russian propaganda is spreading multiple false versions of reality with some truth in it so people no longer know which version is the truth and give up. Knowing to what extend far right/nazis/etc is actually a problem helps undermine Putin's nonsense claims.

 

[hanimmal]

Yes, I did read it like that but then I know not to take things written here as absolutes. The reason I typed that out, while really not wanting to fuel it at a time like this, is one of the main tactics in Russian propaganda is spreading multiple false versions of reality with some truth in it so people no longer know which version is the truth and give up. Knowing to what extend far right/nazis/etc is actually a problem helps undermine Putin's nonsense claims.

One of the things I found with trolls (even the ones in political office) is that understanding the hyper specific context of what is being said becomes really key in understanding the bullshit, so I appreciate your response and it allowing me to clarify what I actually meant by 'just'.

 

[Budzbuddha]

* Sad Trombone Sound

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499185800172474371

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

* Sad Trombone Sound

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1499185800172474371

lets hope they took just as good care of all their weapons systems, as well

 

[Bagginski]

I gotta say, the Art of War remains fresh because it does not address the technology of warfare (rapidly moving target) but the psychology, which still seems to be on point.

Sun Tsu and Von Clausewitz are both well worth reading, but you have to see through the time it was written to catch the essentials.

 

[Bagginski]

I would equally be attacking angry delusional Russians defending their govt on a forum, but here I am surrounded by Yankees

At least you’re in your comfort zone…but calling anyone a yankee is serious business around here.

 

[Bagginski]

I've already explained the geopolitical background of this conflict and why the US is happy with it. All else is me reacting to mostly "fuck this fuck that" comments lacking any analytical approach and self criticism

I wouldn’t call them “explanations”, but you sure have repeated yourself a fair amount.

Here’s a tip: when you show up somewhere and launch into ‘explanations’ that say plenty but don’t explain anything (except how *you* see it) while waving a very one-sided view, it won’t go smoothly for you. Not here, not anywhere. If you come in like a troll, ignore like a troll, insist you’re right about everything and tangle with EVERY SINGLE COMMENT MADE IN RESPONSE, like a troll…while never betraying your intention to damage your targets(s) x everyone will think you’re a troll.

Continuing with your ‘explanations won’t happen as long as you’re not listening…and you’re not. You’ve already decided that YOU understand, that WE do not, and that it’s your job (apparently) to make sure we give in to you anyway.

You picked the wrong bar to walk into, that’s all.
Take a hint: pay your tab, go home, try to do something more constructive tomorrow.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

 

[auswolf]

The most beautiful, adorable, hospitable people on Earth.

Is this the people your talking about....

 

[Budzbuddha]

PROUD BOYS - STANDING BY

 

[Sativied]

Zelensky says NATO is a weak ass pussy with no balls and it should shed for Europe or feel responsible for every Ukranian who dies after today.

Furious Zelensky tears into "weak" NATO for ruling out "no-fly" zone over Ukraine

"All the people who will die starting from this day will also die because of you."

www.axios.com

Any naysayers feel like changing their answer to the poll of this thread?

Despite the seemingly clumsy Russian army and the brave resistance, it’s not looking good.

Also:

Yup yup, people are racist and ignorant af. The ignorance already starts with lumping 44 countries together because they are on the same geographical area, a continent. Many as different from each other as Mexico and Canada are, or Pakistan and Japan, or Morroco and Malawi. “They look like any European family” yeah right and all Asians look like Chinese… jfc. “Relatively European”. That’s like going to Indonesia and say they are relatively Asian. Baffling display of ignorance.

Difference Between Western and Eastern Europe | Definition, Facts, Countries and Differences

What is the difference between Western and Eastern Europe?

pediaa.com

Russians are attacking Europeans is about as accurate as Earthlings are attacking Earthlings. The most populated part of Russia is Europe too. There is a war in Eastern Europe between Ukraine and Russia+Belarus. To see how silly it is, in media/news replace Europeans with Asians or Africans or Americans… wait…damn, Canadians have a good thing going on.

 

[Fogdog]

0

Zelensky says NATO is a weak ass pussy with no balls and it should shed for Europe or feel responsible for every Ukranian who dies after today.

Furious Zelensky tears into "weak" NATO for ruling out "no-fly" zone over Ukraine

"All the people who will die starting from this day will also die because of you."

www.axios.com

Any naysayers feel like changing their answer to the poll of this thread?

Despite the seemingly clumsy Russian army and the brave resistance, it’s not looking good.

Also:

Yup yup, people are racist and ignorant af. The ignorance already starts with lumping 44 countries together because they are on the same geographical area, a continent. Many as different from each other as Mexico and Canada are, or Pakistan and Japan, or Morroco and Malawi. “They look like any European family” yeah right and all Asians look like Chinese… jfc. “Relatively European”. That’s like going to Indonesia and say they are relatively Asian. Baffling display of ignorance.

Difference Between Western and Eastern Europe | Definition, Facts, Countries and Differences

What is the difference between Western and Eastern Europe?

pediaa.com

Russians are attacking Europeans is about as accurate as Earthlings are attacking Earthlings. The most populated part of Russia is Europe too. There is a war in Eastern Europe between Ukraine and Russia+Belarus. To see how silly it is, in media/news replace Europeans with Asians or Africans or Americans… wait…damn, Canadians have a good thing going on.

Well, you know, Biden did say US troops will not fight on Ukrainian soil and I'm still in his camp in that regard. He didn't say anything about drones, missiles or the seas. That bit about the fire in a nuclear power plant after Russia recklessly attacked it might help give Biden the political backing to escalate. Perhaps give Ukraine a footprint on NATO air bases with access to NATO support too? Where there is a will, there is a way.

 

[ANC]

Yup yup, people are racist and ignorant af. The ignorance already starts with lumping 44 countries together because they are on the same geographical area, a continent.

You are not entirely wrong again. was watching some travel videos from March last year, yesterday. They were interviewing this old babushka in Donbas. She was complaining that their village became a black hole when Donetsk was cut off from it. And they have always been totally dependent on them.

As much as we try to abstract concepts into simple poles, then draw lines on a map. There are all these amazing harmless people who have basically suffered under everybody who has ever ruled them, being fucked over, once again. for their own good apparently.

PS I added the video and timestamp to the beginning of the conversation.

 

[Budley Doright]

Zelensky says NATO is a weak ass pussy with no balls and it should shed for Europe or feel responsible for every Ukranian who dies after today.

Furious Zelensky tears into "weak" NATO for ruling out "no-fly" zone over Ukraine

"All the people who will die starting from this day will also die because of you."

www.axios.com

Any naysayers feel like changing their answer to the poll of this thread?

Despite the seemingly clumsy Russian army and the brave resistance, it’s not looking good.

Also:

Yup yup, people are racist and ignorant af. The ignorance already starts with lumping 44 countries together because they are on the same geographical area, a continent. Many as different from each other as Mexico and Canada are, or Pakistan and Japan, or Morroco and Malawi. “They look like any European family” yeah right and all Asians look like Chinese… jfc. “Relatively European”. That’s like going to Indonesia and say they are relatively Asian. Baffling display of ignorance.

Difference Between Western and Eastern Europe | Definition, Facts, Countries and Differences

What is the difference between Western and Eastern Europe?

pediaa.com

Russians are attacking Europeans is about as accurate as Earthlings are attacking Earthlings. The most populated part of Russia is Europe too. There is a war in Eastern Europe between Ukraine and Russia+Belarus. To see how silly it is, in media/news replace Europeans with Asians or Africans or Americans… wait…damn, Canadians have a good thing going on.

Perhaps the perception is wrong (I believe your correct btw) but my emotional response is still this is Russia attacking basically the world and other then driving them into the financial Stone Age and provide arms length military aide there is not much else to do. It’s basically on Russia as to how far/long they want to take this. I also, given the control the goverment (regime is a better word) has over its citizens minds, think the Russian people’s also feel somewhat just in this attack. As for why this is happening I’ll leave that to people with a higher pay grade but attacking another country is never just or right. What a fucking nightmare this whole fucking planet has become . I’ve mentioned before but I’ll say it again……I tolerate but hate most people .

 

[Polly Wog]

Cultural identity will kill us. As we fly through space on a rock.

 

[CCGNZ]

And same timeline as referendum in NL about a EU association agreement with Ukraine, where Russia faked a video with fake Ukrainian nazis threatening with terrorist attacks in NL if we were to vote against (which the population did anyway for entirely different reasons, which our goverment mostly ignored, a clause was added and they voted yes instead of veto).

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the reason this particular propaganda is effective is because there is some truth in it. They do have nazi militias, of which some expressed the desire for the type of country the US would want to attack, they did attack lgbt protests, crazy ukrainians attacking gay bars is a thing (majority considers homosexuality as not acceptable), they are quite racist and xenophobic. Making monkey sounds in stadiums towards black players, beating up tourist poc. In 2012 in Lviv 10% of the votes went to an ultraright fascist party (Svoboda). Authorities are known to look away. So why do I not question this is just Russian propaganda? For similar reason we don’t question Mexico has a problem with drug cartels. Way too many people, including Ukrainians who moved west, media and politicians would have to be lying. As Fogdog said a few days ago, it’s not Denmark. It sure ain’t.

Basically despite their good looks they are a little backward in east europe. Not as in retarded, but travelling east means in some ways travelling back in time. That applies to anything from haircuts to views on jews, lgbt, colored people. The more rural areas are worst, as is the case in western countries.

I do not know how the country changed since they voted for Zelensky. Ukraine wasn’t a concern of mine for 6 years and I would have liked to keep it that way. But if most of them were nazis, they wouldn’t have voted for a jewish guy. The conclusion of this article sums it up nicely: “The far right is a problem in Ukraine, but the country is far from a Nazi state.”

Can Ukraine have a 'Nazi problem' with a Jewish president?

Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine is now months long and Russian President Vladimir Putin and his government continue to invoke a "fight against Nazis" as

jewishunpacked.com

It’s actually worse in some neighboring countries east and west from Ukraine…

Obviously in no way a valid excuse for Putin to invade Ukraine and kill innocent people and children. He may just succeed with some denazification though, because however this war ends, the “normal” majority of Ukrainians and authorities will likely be less tolerant towards what Putin labelled them during the war. War changes people. Any Ukrainian nazis left after the war may have to flee to Argentina.

Well put,is Argentina still the go to for das reich believers?,there is some pretty shocking poverty in eastern Europe,no more shocking than wondering if I can safely ditch my mask after 2 yrs. and while pondering that,I'm flashed back 80 yrs. to IVAN w/his kalishnikov's and tanks laying seige to major cities WTF,I need to pinch myself w/a pair of vice-grips.

 

[CCGNZ]

Perhaps the perception is wrong (I believe your correct btw) but my emotional response is still this is Russia attacking basically the world and other then driving them into the financial Stone Age and provide arms length military aide there is not much else to do. It’s basically on Russia as to how far/long they want to take this. I also, given the control the goverment (regime is a better word) has over its citizens minds, think the Russian people’s also feel somewhat just in this attack. As for why this is happening I’ll leave that to people with a higher pay grade but attacking another country is never just or right. What a fucking nightmare this whole fucking planet has become . I’ve mentioned before but I’ll say it again……I tolerate but hate most people .

It's very agonizing to watch,on one hand I have the vision of Ukranian's pumping fists and giving V signs to NATO pilots barrel rolling through the skies of Ukraine triumphantly on the other hand I see mushroom clouds north and southeast of my location and that scary civil defense/fema broadcast.