cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
With respect, that is not my take. My single criterion here is the genetic uniquenes she invokes. What is lacking is the logical discourse between that and the condition of being someone.
Is a reversal of Roe v Wade decision next?
- Thread starter CunningCanuk
- Start date
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I can see how that rambling statement of hers is prone to different interpretations. Still, though it seems we are both seeing the same logical fallacy. It's a common one. Petitio principii is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Is that the same as “begging the question”?
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
That's what the link I provided in my post called it. Wikipedia goes on to say that a better translation is "assuming the conclusion". Or modern term is jumping to a conclusion. Basically, @Kassiopeija posted bafflegab regarding genetic uniqueness or something like that and jumped to/assumed the conclusion that a woman does not have the right to choose.
That she also does it in the growing forum, I find amusing.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I’m a bit biased because she and I both speak German. Some of her statements sort of rock me back, and I’m looking for data to discriminate between culture/individual inputs.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Being someone is the question and an ancient one and the crux of the matter, at what point does a thing become someone? That is the moral question and the correct one to ask, logic and science can inform it, but it is the same one as the difference between sapience and sentience, one we eat and also love (as in pets), the other has legal and social statues, along with rights. It is not strictly a legal or logical question either, but the feelings and emotions that drive us and human beings are involved too. Altruism is hardwired into humans and to deny it is to deny our humanity.
A women's right and ability to choose her fate diminishes with the progress of the pregnancy in almost all cases, even in places with liberal abortion laws.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
She might be German but aren't religious zealots a common affliction across many different societies? The common denominator is radical authoritarianism. It's not really religious belief but some kind of defect in humanity.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I think mob psychology covers it. Some of her language has mapped onto fundamentalist religious precepts. I was hoping for data on that front, since i have lived both sides of the evangelical experience.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Isn't telling a woman she must carry a fetus to term against her will an authoritarian act? It is true that the arguments against abortion are usually couched in religious terms but there are plenty of people who are religious yet support women's rights.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I have not met any such. Every time for me has led to religion, usually Catholic or militant evangelical.
But to your question, yes. I consider reproductive and gender rights to be a cornerstone kind of thing.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
I grew up a church that called itself a mouthful -- 1st Congregational United Church of Christ. They were very much not authoritarian and did support a woman's right to choose. My mom was religious but adamant that women should have that right also supported civil rights regardless of race or gender. Dad was not. We had to go to church while growing up but all of their kids (four boys) could choose whether or not to continue after the age of 16. It was a large church when I was a kid but has since dwindled.
Unfortunately, that kind of church is on the decline in the US but there are still plenty of people who are religious but don't go to those wacko Evangelist churches.
America’s Abortion Quandary
A majority of Americans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, but many are open to restrictions; many opponents of legal abortion say it should be legal in some circumstances.
www.pewresearch.org
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
It's not mentioned in the Bible at all, so prohibiting abortion has no religious bases either. Through out much of history it was medically too dangerous to practice abortion and infanticide was the chosen option.I grew up a church that called itself a mouthful -- 1st Congregational United Church of Christ. They were very much not authoritarian and did support a woman's right to choose. My mom was religious but adamant that women should have that right also supported civil rights regardless of race or gender. Dad was not. We had to go to church while growing up but all of their kids (four boys) could choose whether or not to continue after the age of 16. It was a large church when I was a kid but has since dwindled.
Unfortunately, that kind of church is on the decline in the US but there are still plenty of people who are religious but don't go to those wacko Evangelist churches.
America’s Abortion Quandary
A majority of Americans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, but many are open to restrictions; many opponents of legal abortion say it should be legal in some circumstances.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I spent time in the sort of infallible-book church from which all current poison spreads. Thus my occasional fiery speech against dominionists.I grew up a church that called itself a mouthful -- 1st Congregational United Church of Christ. They were very much not authoritarian and did support a woman's right to choose. My mom was religious but adamant that women should have that right also supported civil rights regardless of race or gender. Dad was not. We had to go to church while growing up but all of their kids (four boys) could choose whether or not to continue after the age of 16. It was a large church when I was a kid but has since dwindled.
Unfortunately, that kind of church is on the decline in the US but there are still plenty of people who are religious but don't go to those wacko Evangelist churches.
America’s Abortion Quandary
A majority of Americans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, but many are open to restrictions; many opponents of legal abortion say it should be legal in some circumstances.
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
Yep, religion is used to justify all sorts of things that has nothing to do with the religion.
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
how can you call a bunch of contradictory crap the truth? all kinds of science exists, and i honestly don't have an emotional stake in this matter...i don't give a shit one way or the other if a woman carries a child to term. i think if they don't want to, then they shouldn't be made to, because it's just going to be a kid thats treated like shit their whole lives, and will 9 times out of ten turn into a shitty adult, and we have enough republicans already...How can you be in such blatant denial of the truth? Science does not exist so you can just pick what you emotionally favour... The political arbitrarist is the crutch of the world
and my politics are far from arbitrary. i've come to my political views due to considering a lot of different view points and opinions
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
This is the hinge of the personhood argument. A baby is someone. A zygote is not. Where to draw the line, and by what rule?
CunningCanuk
Well-Known Member
Evangelicals are Christlike, if Christ was an asshole.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
what they are is priestlike.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
The use of truth (Wahrheit) is a tell.