CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
Maybe tomorrow someone will explain to all how Auschwitz wasn't really that bad of a place.....
Keep your head in the sand, cleaner air down there anyway.
Keep your head in the sand, cleaner air down there anyway.
Canadian Stuff
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Ozumoz66
Well-Known Member
Cannasaurus Rex
Well-Known Member
Comparing our system of residential schools to Auschwitz is much worse than keeping MY head in YOUR proverbial sand. You're inferring I'm a Nazi sympathizer? Pretty low...
Cannasaurus Rex
Well-Known Member
That's a quote full of rascist frustration. Why I don't trust any politician. Seeing as I have faith in a free(ish) Constitutional Monarchy, I do excercise my right to vote. We have a few choices federally, but it boils down to 2 parties, with one third party (Thankfully) as those who will take 'power'. Identity politics (started as political satire when drawing was invented) and knee-jerk 'NOWism' have created a 'caste filter' directly associating support of a particular leader with the approval of their lowest personal achievements and deeply polarized a wide spectrum of beliefs into an extremist label.Found your leader...
Our countries (and any other) diversity of people and ideologies shared freely for our common experience is what makes me feel proud to be Canadian. Stifling, silencing, and stereotyping of these opinions is exactly the same game that dictators play.
Happy Monday
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
I'm not inferring you are a Nazi sympathizer. Maybe you should go read up on the residential schools and see why I would reference Auschwitz. Read up on what Dr. Bryce documented, to the standards of 100 years ago. The parallels to the gas chambers via tuberculosis.....
Researchers say that TB at residential schools was no accident
Two experts in tuberculosis say the mass death from TB at residential schools was no accident, but the result of deliberate neglect that was part of Canada's broader genocidal project.
Maybe read up on it a bit and you'll understand why it's so offensive to believe it wasn't that bad.
CunningCanuk
Well-Known Member
How so?
printer
Well-Known Member
I agree about hindsight and comparing past events with today's standards. How many families scraped on by while saving enough to send their eldest to go to school and benefit the family? The powers that be were not inventing the wheel, a lot of well off families sent their kids away to school way back when and I am pretty sure some kids felt bad, that some of the older kids bullied others. Heck, when I was debating going to university I said there is no way I will let other student haze me. Stuff that went on that forty years later we frown on.
But even with the different social norms compared to now the government was responsible for the kids while under government's care. Two sayings that apply, "You break it you bought it. You pay me now or you pay me later." You do not like paying for the past sins of the government and feel since you did not live at the time then your hands are clean, that is not how things work. Some government builds a bridge and borrows the money, they have to pay it back (some projects take 50 years to pay back). The governments are the will of the people and the people own what the government does, even 100 years on.
The governments of the day did not do their job of risk management, they decided to cheap out on the care and schooling of the kids. After all, the worth of a native kid is worth less than white kids. Mind you, this is also the opinion that was had toward the Irish, stinking people coming off the boat. Then there is the stinking Polish, Ukrainian, German... ... all the peoples that came from other countries were looked down on by the English rulers. In a couple of generations these people were accepted, in part because different nationalities came knocking at the door wanting to come here for a better future and they were looked down upon. But these peoples worked hard to get their place in society, many suffered to give their children a better future. Rather than have these immigrants come to town filling jobs, what if Natives left their reserves looking for a better future?
We had big fights when I was growing up. My dad complaining of the dirty Indians, my brother and I defending them, saying my dad did not really know what they were like. I did agree with them coming down and blend into society, I thought of other people as being equal to each other, that we should all be Canadians rather than a XXXXX Canadian. But something my mother said changed that a little. She said that if the Natives do not have a home of their own and blend into society their culture may have no anchoring point (she never used these words but the best I can explain briefly). This did give me a shift in thinking, sure the Germans, the poles, the peoples that come here, at least their culture has a place it came from and the immigrants could look at for an identity. If the Natives all left the reserves could their culture last? My parents wanted me to retain their culture and have feelings for a country I have never been to when all I thought of myself was a Canadian. But that was how the world worked back then, you take care of your clan as no one else will. Peoples also changed countries and retained their ethnicity even after generations (so you are Jewish, are you?). Could it have worked for the Natives if given a chance? Sounds like the politicians of the day just wanted them to fold into society and wanted them to disappear into the Canadian fabric.
So they grabbed the kids and gave them an education. Was it money well spent offloading it onto the churches? Were the churches on the same page or were they more concerned with saving the kids souls and learning useful skills were second place? Did they want to try but were underfunded for the task and the kids paid for it? Remember you pay me now or pay me later? Every politician that wants to survive will push the costs down the line in order to not look bad. And we are reaping what was sown. I do not agree with the settlement, I am not sure it will do anything for the damage done to the kids, to the societies that they returned to. But to do some real good would cost the government more, a one time payment washes their hands. But the problems have not gone away.
For example, the missing and murdered women. They were preyed upon by Native and non-natives alike. They were usually picked off because they were seen as being invisible. A lot comes out due to poverty, the reports have said that if the reserves were a thriving entity that there would be less women in dire straights and they would end up having a normal life (distilling down 10,000 pages). But for the reserves to have the same opportunities of the rest of Canada would take a lot of money. The remoteness of some kills any economic activity that would help sustain the communities. We had a big debate about a power line from a northern dam going down along the east or west side of Lake Winnipeg. One of the concerns was that the east side is pristine land and putting a power line through it may end up damaging it. Some bands wanted it to go down the east side, some did not. If the line went down the east, a road to connect these bands to the rest of society would come next. That worried some and not all signed up to have it cross their territories. Because of it the line was run down the west side and cost an extra billion. And the reserves still have only airplane and winter roads to get back and forth. This helps keep them in poverty, the price of foods and goods being higher than down south. The road might be built in the next hundred years, it may not be. The problem was what was good for one band was not good for the next and it scuttled an opportunity. Some think it was a win and the area will be on the World Heritage Site list with future tourists paddling canoes through the untouched wilderness. Good luck with that as a moneymaker for the bands in the area.
A lot of rambling to say it is not a one size fits all solution to the problems Natives faced. What might have looked good on paper with the schools did not work out as planned in practice. If they spent the money and did things right back then we might not have the problems we have. The money may have helped some that received it, not sure if it will fix any of the structural problems we have. But it is the cheap way to brush the school problem under the carpet.
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Cannasaurus Rex
Well-Known Member
I absolutely agree with you on this (except the cheap part lol). Just to keep this serious matter, (which potheads like me thrive on) a bit light hearted, the quote "you can pay me now or pay me later" was coined (or popularized) by a Fram Oil filter commercial in the late 70's... mechanics are the best LOL. Well put 'rambling' sir...kudos.
Cannasaurus Rex
Well-Known Member
I disagree the intent of residential schools was ONLY to collect and exterminate Indigenous people. Or to benefit Canada, solely by running biological experiments on all of these people. Thats why I reject the comparison.
Cannasaurus Rex
Well-Known Member
I never said it was 'good', I said the intention was good and it still stands as valid and is applied today. Its easy to condemn outcomes that aren't perfect by your or our standards today, without any relevant comparison to alternatives that came out any better. We all had/have a public education system thrust upon us as ignorance and want are the persvasive devils that drive most society ills. Before public schools, and municipal government formation ,the church (in various forms) were responsible for education, healthcare, and most other social programs, that our (and European) forming country and civilization reaped the benefit of. I'm sure a lot of 'victims' of the Foster care programs feel the same way of the present system, and most of them are NOT getting any compensation. Harsh reality of life isn't fair. Money does not make things 'right'.
As per"so offensive to believe" yeah, more totalitarian jargon...to put it mildly... no offense,
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youshould probably brush up on some history ....yikes
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
Regarding a report in 1907, yes, 1907:I never said it was 'good', I said the intention was good and it still stands as valid and is applied today. Its easy to condemn outcomes that aren't perfect by your or our standards today, without any relevant comparison to alternatives that came out any better. We all had/have a public education system thrust upon us as ignorance and want are the persvasive devils that drive most society ills. Before public schools, and municipal government formation ,the church (in various forms) were responsible for education, healthcare, and most other social programs, that our (and European) forming country and civilization reaped the benefit of. I'm sure a lot of 'victims' of the Foster care programs feel the same way of the present system, and most of them are NOT getting any compensation. Harsh reality of life isn't fair. Money does not make things 'right'.
As per"so offensive to believe" yeah, more totalitarian jargon...to put it mildly... no offense,
For example, Dr. Peter Henderson Bryce called repeatedly upon Duncan Campbell Scott, federal Deputy Superintendent of the Department of
Indian Affairs, to improve conditions in the schools to prevent unnecessary illness and death amongst the children who attended them. Duncan Campbell Scott made it clear that he understood the extent of the death rates in residential schools, and once estimated that “fifty percent of the children who passed through these schools did not live to benefit from the education which they had received therein” (Milloy,1999, p. 51). Duncan Campbell Scott and other bureaucrats working for the Department of Indian Affairs made deliberate decisions to disregard Dr. Bryce’s findings and recommendations and to continue with the assimilation policy of residential schools. Duncan Campbell Scott wrote: It is readily acknowledged that Indian children lose their natural resistance to illness by habituating so closely in the residential schools and that they die at a much higher rate than in their villages. But this does not justify a change in the policy of this Department which is geared towards a final solution of our Indian Problem (BC Teachers’ Federation, 2015, p..
Not that it's going to change your mind. Not sure why there is such an issue calling a disgusting act, a disgusting act? I didn't claim you were responsible for it. Calling it out doesn't downplay any hardships that any other individuals have dealt with; doesn't even approach how we as a country should move forward in the future. Our government knew it was wrong a hundred years ago, yet you still believe it was with good intentions.
CunningCanuk
Well-Known Member
We have disagreement from the uninformed. How much weight do you suppose that carries?
CunningCanuk
Well-Known Member
You think the intention was good when the government forcibly removed children from their families and told them everything they’ve been taught so far, including language, was garbage?I never said it was 'good', I said the intention was good and it still stands as valid and is applied today. Its easy to condemn outcomes that aren't perfect by your or our standards today, without any relevant comparison to alternatives that came out any better. We all had/have a public education system thrust upon us as ignorance and want are the persvasive devils that drive most society ills. Before public schools, and municipal government formation ,the church (in various forms) were responsible for education, healthcare, and most other social programs, that our (and European) forming country and civilization reaped the benefit of. I'm sure a lot of 'victims' of the Foster care programs feel the same way of the present system, and most of them are NOT getting any compensation. Harsh reality of life isn't fair. Money does not make things 'right'.
As per"so offensive to believe" yeah, more totalitarian jargon...to put it mildly... no offense,
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/how-myth-liberal-north-erases-long-history-white-violence-180975661/
https://www.ranker.com/list/racism-post-civil-war/setareh-janda
https://historycollection.com/myths-of-the-american-civil-war-its-time-to-put-to-bed/4/
What's my point? That once this kind of shit gets embedded into a culture, you will NEVER convince those that WANT to believe it that it isn't true...All you can do is try to minimize the damage they can do till they die, and hope they didn't spread their mental disease to a new generation on their way out.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber
Well-Known Member
fox news needs to be shut the fuck down permanently in the US...if the rest of the world wants to watch lies and hate, they should just watch the republican channels on cspan
Cannasaurus Rex
Well-Known Member
What Childrens aid, and foster care do today is forcibly remove children from their homes and settle them somewhere else or bounce them around non-committal custodians. The intent is to give a child deemed (by the government) at a disadvantage, under his/her current living situation, and attempt to improve their chances at life in society. This is the principle of foreign aid, universal education and many other situations worldwide. Is it right to withhold education to impoverished African girls or young people from 3rd world nations? Again ladies, I'm not approving of the results of residential schools, but you offer no historical reference of any other alternatives, anywhere, just stick to character attack (which is fine by me) and offer nothing.
Cannasaurus Rex
Well-Known Member
Why oh why do some seem to be obsessed with silencing news, opinion, and free speech? I don't think people realize (or care) how pre-WW2 their methodry is??