BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
historically, can u cite some instances, cause i'm a gnostic and i'm not an anti-semit...
Hamas offensive against Israel
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DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
Instances are easy to find on google.
The basic issue for the Roman Catholic Church was it was Roman, and crucifixion is a Roman form of capital punishment, and they ran the place when they strung Jesus up. So early on when the church became mainstream, it was say, convenient, to blame the Jews, later with the eastern church schism from the western church into the Orthodox churches they carried the rational with them. Martin Luther was a noted antisemite a founder of Protestantism, but he was a Catholic monk and doctor of the church before that.
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
Well, only the most despicable people on earth would believe that a child or baby getting murdered or killed is justifiable, like Hamas and certain people in control of government. I would suggest that an innocent and defenceless 30-something getting killed is despicable as well; but how many people directing all this senseless killing(so either side) have justified killing anyone that age because they are of fighting age, and therefore a potential threat? Too many. Now it is not possible for a young child or baby to be a threat, they aren't in control of policy and 'can't point a rocket at your kitchen', so they can't really be considered an actual threat.
Classic appeal to emotion? So like this?
DER SPIEGEL: The families of those who are missing and of the hostages are extremely worried. Some are calling for a ceasefire.
Livni: I cannot stop thinking about these families, about parents whose children have been abducted. They are holding a nine-month-old baby. That’s my grandson’s age. I cannot even comprehend how this must feel. I think it is in the interest of Hamas to release the babies, the children, the women. Because after all these atrocities, they claim that they represent something else – so they must show something.
I haven't seen anyone claim that Israel, or anyone else for that matter, shouldn't or can't protect their children when an enemy attacks. Only thing I have seen claimed by rational people is that there are limits to what is justifiable.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
The comparison of civilian casualties, with the suggestion those numbers mean anything in terms of fairness or justice was already the product of intellectual poverty, as the wiser world leaders agree. The more extreme version, comparing dead babies/children, is messed up on so many levels. Tell me, what do you guys think would be a fair exchange rate between dead Israeli babies and dead Palestinian babies? Is it 1:1? Should Israel stop defending itself and its children from the animals that killed and mutilated them on Oct 7 once the civilian casualties in the war they didn’t start is a number equal to the victims on that day? Since when did you guys start using this metric to judge? Exactly, since Jews are the ones defending themselves and social media and hamas propaganda wants to portray Israelis as people who target civilians and kill babies. Sensational crap that reeks and doesn’t equate to criticizing Israel. The statement one can criticize Israel with out being anti-semitic is true, just as the statement many if not most clearly lack the intellectual honesty to be able to do that. Especially those doubling down on nasty comments that expand the overton window.
The alternatives you’re suggesting, as I mentioned too months ago, always involve risking more Israeli lives. Cause somehow a soldier’s life is worth less than a civilian in your naive hollywood movie inspired perception. While in fact, many of the reserves who returned to the homeland are barely no longer kids, too. US nuked Japan to avoid many more deads on both sides if they were to go on with ground troops. As horrible as the results were for the victims, it passified the japanese nazis permanently. Israel is at war, and yes, in wars there are civilian casualties of all ages. If you want to argue humans should stop making war just because of that, I could agree, even if it happened to be this war that suddenly triggered such highschool level of utopian idealism.
The alternatives you’re suggesting, as I mentioned too months ago, always involve risking more Israeli lives. Cause somehow a soldier’s life is worth less than a civilian in your naive hollywood movie inspired perception. While in fact, many of the reserves who returned to the homeland are barely no longer kids, too. US nuked Japan to avoid many more deads on both sides if they were to go on with ground troops. As horrible as the results were for the victims, it passified the japanese nazis permanently. Israel is at war, and yes, in wars there are civilian casualties of all ages. If you want to argue humans should stop making war just because of that, I could agree, even if it happened to be this war that suddenly triggered such highschool level of utopian idealism.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
7 million dead jews during the holocaust is a lot different than 7, numbers count. What metric would you suggest we use other than the sheer number of dead and injured civilians? Israel must do what it must to secure itself, but how it does it is important, not just for the Palestinians but for the Israelis too. International law will grow in importance in the coming years and decades and the precedent being set with Russia is important IMO in the larger context of international relations. We can't however have a double standard if the court thinks Israel violated the law, so restraint is called for. We have a fish in a barrel situation in Gaza, and if it was Israels intention to commit atrocities it would be all over by now with Gaza flattened from one end to another by airpower. PR is important and it is causing big PR problems for Israel in America and in Europe, that was the point of the attack. To overreact would be to play into Hamas's hands, they want the highest body count of civilians in Gaza as possible, don't give it to them.
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
1: the Roman Catholic Church wasn't around during that time, and Roman by far were Pagan, the primary rulers of the city were Jewish and Gentile....
2: yes Roman capital punishment was crucifixion, that only happen after the Jewish high authority pressure Pontius to do it, in fact Pontius's wife had told Pontius to leave Jesus (the man) alone:
""When he was set down on the Judgement seat, his wife sent unto him,
saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered
many things this day in a dream because of him." - Matthew 27:19
(please keep in mind some say that Jesus the man didn't die on the cross at all"
3: when it comes to the schism's of the church that was way after in mid-evil times, the one side was actually founded by Peter, while the other was Constantine, and that was primarily over the divinity of Jesus, one saw him as a man while the other saw him as divine
4: when it comes to Martin Luther, he was just a big baby.....and i'll cite Canon sight for this one:
"Returning to Germany, we find Martin Luther in his early days naively imagining that the Jews, to whom he was attracted by his studies, would flock to the Church in his reformed version. When nothing of the sort happened, he denounced them in a set of pamphlets written in vituperative fury. He had produced the early, favorable "That Christ Was Born a Jew" in 1523, but after he turned on this so-called "damned, rejected race," he wrote Against the Sabbatarians (153
and On the Jews and Their Lies (1543). "
BudmanTX
Well-Known Member
thanks for the read, very informative
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
The Roman Catholic church arose in fits and starts from about 300 AD during the reign of Constantine. Jesus was long dead, and the Church was becoming the state religion. At the time it was very much Roman, and it was before the empire split into east and west, they couldn't be responsible for crucifying Jesus! Now Christianity waxed and waned in the empire for a while depending on the emperor, which is where all those lions and Christians in the arena come into play. That is where the slander began it was the original sin of the Catholic Church, doctrine evolved over hundreds of years as Christianity spread through the middle east. The schism with the eastern church began in 1054, long after Catholic Christianity was the established religion in Europe and the middle east. The doctrine of blaming the Jews was well established as were the pogroms every easter when they hunted the Christ killers. Remember who wrote, copied, edited and excluded books from the bible, the Catholic Church and in the dark ages and medieval times they were as corrupt as the Devil himself. Things were excluded and things were inserted to suit the beliefs and prejudices of those doing the copying and editing.1: the Roman Catholic Church wasn't around during that time, and Roman by far were Pagan, the primary rulers of the city were Jewish and Gentile....
2: yes Roman capital punishment was crucifixion, that only happen after the Jewish high authority pressure Pontius to do it, in fact Pontius's wife had told Pontius to leave Jesus (the man) alone:
""When he was set down on the Judgement seat, his wife sent unto him,
saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered
many things this day in a dream because of him." - Matthew 27:19
(please keep in mind some say that Jesus the man didn't die on the cross at all"
3: when it comes to the schism's of the church that was way after in mid-evil times, the one side was actually founded by Peter, while the other was Constantine, and that was primarily over the divinity of Jesus, one saw him as a man while the other saw him as divine
4: when it comes to Martin Luther, he was just a big baby.....and i'll cite Canon sight for this one:
"Returning to Germany, we find Martin Luther in his early days naively imagining that the Jews, to whom he was attracted by his studies, would flock to the Church in his reformed version. When nothing of the sort happened, he denounced them in a set of pamphlets written in vituperative fury. He had produced the early, favorable "That Christ Was Born a Jew" in 1523, but after he turned on this so-called "damned, rejected race," he wrote Against the Sabbatarians (153
The KJV bible was written by a committee in 1604 and about 80% of it is from an earlier translation called the Tyndal bible and even for its time the language was archaic, but it gave it gravitas.
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
Rather than discuss what was said in the past, since I got warned about that already, keeping it on the present:
Ossoff took to the Senate floor to excoriate Israel’s conduct. He did not call for a ceasefire — he said Israel must pursue Hamas. But he was unstinting in his criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war and its resistance to Biden Administration pleas to allow in humanitarian assistance.
“The extent of civilian death and suffering in Gaza is unnecessary,” he said. “It is a moral failure and it should be unacceptable to the United States.”
Ossoff was especially galled that Israel seemed to be rebuffing Biden administration appeals to allow in relief and to curb violence by a group of Israeli West Bank settlers who have seized the moment to attack Palestinian communities.
“Requests by the United States that the Israeli leadership conduct a more targeted campaign, that they permit and provide a safe passage for aid essential to the sustenance of innocent life, that they clearly define objectives, that they prevent extrajudicial killings by extremists in the West Bank, that they present a credible plan for Gaza’s future governance have mostly been ignored,” Ossoff said.
He raised the specter of conditioning U.S. defense assistance to Israel on its compliance. “I do not accept that the total deprivation of millions of innocent civilians is necessary for Israel to secure its objectives or in the national interest of the United States, and where the United States is committing arms funds and support to those efforts, we must guard our principles and our interests,” he said.
On Friday, Phillips, who is mounting a long-shot primary challenge to Biden and is known for his moderate positions, released a statement outlining his vision for a way out of the war that did not spare Israel or its leadership. He too called on Israel to dismantle Hamas’ fighting capacity.
“Israel has every right and expectation to target Hamas terrorists and dismantle their capability of destroying the state of Israel,” he said. “But that response has taken an unacceptable toll on Palestinians, many of whom are subject to Hamas terror — not supporters of it.”
He took aim in particular at Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who he said had “exacerbated” policies of “repression and illegal settlement on Palestinian lands.” He said Israelis should hold elections soon. Netanyahu also has low approval ratings within Israel.
Phillips presented a five-point plan to create a “future of peace.” The document was notable considering Phillips has been a leader in Congress in terms of calling out fellow Democrats for Israel criticism that he believed was antisemitic.
www.jta.org
There was a reason the JDL was labelled a terrorist organization in the US, hence it doesn't exist there anymore. Responsible leaders around the world did not shy away from calling out a dog whistle and loaded rhetoric. When looking at the overall picture it is understandable when the United Nations Secretary General said "it did not happen in a vacuum". This is not showing support for Hamas, or attacking Israel; this is pointing out how dangerous it is when extremists gain control.
The idea's of an extremist, that former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described as more imminent danger to Israel than a nuclear-armed Iran:
He has thus dubbed his campaign tour “the quest to save the state of Israel.” For soldiers and police, he demands full legal immunity from indictment for misconduct. He decries the army’s existing rules of engagement, which he claims are “killing” soldiers in the field. He insists the army be given a “free hand to crush the terrorists.”
jewishcurrents.org
Ossoff took to the Senate floor to excoriate Israel’s conduct. He did not call for a ceasefire — he said Israel must pursue Hamas. But he was unstinting in his criticism of Israel’s conduct of the war and its resistance to Biden Administration pleas to allow in humanitarian assistance.
“The extent of civilian death and suffering in Gaza is unnecessary,” he said. “It is a moral failure and it should be unacceptable to the United States.”
Ossoff was especially galled that Israel seemed to be rebuffing Biden administration appeals to allow in relief and to curb violence by a group of Israeli West Bank settlers who have seized the moment to attack Palestinian communities.
“Requests by the United States that the Israeli leadership conduct a more targeted campaign, that they permit and provide a safe passage for aid essential to the sustenance of innocent life, that they clearly define objectives, that they prevent extrajudicial killings by extremists in the West Bank, that they present a credible plan for Gaza’s future governance have mostly been ignored,” Ossoff said.
He raised the specter of conditioning U.S. defense assistance to Israel on its compliance. “I do not accept that the total deprivation of millions of innocent civilians is necessary for Israel to secure its objectives or in the national interest of the United States, and where the United States is committing arms funds and support to those efforts, we must guard our principles and our interests,” he said.
On Friday, Phillips, who is mounting a long-shot primary challenge to Biden and is known for his moderate positions, released a statement outlining his vision for a way out of the war that did not spare Israel or its leadership. He too called on Israel to dismantle Hamas’ fighting capacity.
“Israel has every right and expectation to target Hamas terrorists and dismantle their capability of destroying the state of Israel,” he said. “But that response has taken an unacceptable toll on Palestinians, many of whom are subject to Hamas terror — not supporters of it.”
He took aim in particular at Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who he said had “exacerbated” policies of “repression and illegal settlement on Palestinian lands.” He said Israelis should hold elections soon. Netanyahu also has low approval ratings within Israel.
Phillips presented a five-point plan to create a “future of peace.” The document was notable considering Phillips has been a leader in Congress in terms of calling out fellow Democrats for Israel criticism that he believed was antisemitic.
'Unacceptable' and a 'moral failure': In a shift, Jewish lawmakers Ossoff, Balint and Phillips ramp up criticism on Israel's conduct - Jewish Telegraphic Agency
A wall of support for Israel might be crumbling among Jewish Democrats in Congress.
www.jta.org
There was a reason the JDL was labelled a terrorist organization in the US, hence it doesn't exist there anymore. Responsible leaders around the world did not shy away from calling out a dog whistle and loaded rhetoric. When looking at the overall picture it is understandable when the United Nations Secretary General said "it did not happen in a vacuum". This is not showing support for Hamas, or attacking Israel; this is pointing out how dangerous it is when extremists gain control.
The idea's of an extremist, that former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described as more imminent danger to Israel than a nuclear-armed Iran:
He has thus dubbed his campaign tour “the quest to save the state of Israel.” For soldiers and police, he demands full legal immunity from indictment for misconduct. He decries the army’s existing rules of engagement, which he claims are “killing” soldiers in the field. He insists the army be given a “free hand to crush the terrorists.”
Kahanism’s Raucous Return
Knesset member Itamar Ben-Gvir, a follower of far-right ideologue Meir Kahane, is surging in popularity on the promise of realizing ideas like the forced…
jewishcurrents.org
CANON_Grow
Well-Known Member
A relatively long but worthwhile read:
In the spring of 2021, a month after Ben-Gvir joined parliament, his allegiances as a politician were tested for the first time. In the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem, Palestinian residents were engaged in a five-decade legal battle to keep their homes, which sit on land that has been claimed by settlers. That May, Israel’s Supreme Court was expected to issue a decisive ruling. Fearing expulsion, the residents erupted in nightly protests. After a week of unrest, Ben-Gvir showed up. He set up a desk for himself, planted the Israeli flag, and hung a massive sign that declared the spot “The Bureau of Knesset Member Ben-Gvir.” The goal, he said, was to provide security for the handful of Jewish families living there. Instead, his presence provoked more violence. Palestinian residents threw chairs and rocks; Jewish residents responded in kind. That night, Ben-Gvir reportedly received a call from Netanyahu’s office, warning, “If you don’t leave, it could end with Hamas firing rockets on Israel.”
Netanyahu was right. The clashes spilled into other parts of the Old City, including the grounds of the al-Aqsa mosque, which the Israeli police then raided. That night, Hamas launched rockets at Jerusalem. Israel sent devastating air strikes into Gaza. For Ben-Gvir’s supporters, though, that was just the beginning. In messages on WhatsApp and Telegram, they promoted violent demonstrations in Israel’s mixed towns. Ben-Gvir’s ally Gopstein wrote, “Good Jews, we’re arranging a protest in Bat Yam on the promenade at 5 P.M.” That protest ended in the attempted lynching of an Arab man. The following day, Israel’s police chief made a stunningly direct statement in a closed briefing: “The person responsible for this intifada is Itamar Ben-Gvir. . . . The police don’t have the tools to deal with him.”
www.newyorker.com
In the spring of 2021, a month after Ben-Gvir joined parliament, his allegiances as a politician were tested for the first time. In the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem, Palestinian residents were engaged in a five-decade legal battle to keep their homes, which sit on land that has been claimed by settlers. That May, Israel’s Supreme Court was expected to issue a decisive ruling. Fearing expulsion, the residents erupted in nightly protests. After a week of unrest, Ben-Gvir showed up. He set up a desk for himself, planted the Israeli flag, and hung a massive sign that declared the spot “The Bureau of Knesset Member Ben-Gvir.” The goal, he said, was to provide security for the handful of Jewish families living there. Instead, his presence provoked more violence. Palestinian residents threw chairs and rocks; Jewish residents responded in kind. That night, Ben-Gvir reportedly received a call from Netanyahu’s office, warning, “If you don’t leave, it could end with Hamas firing rockets on Israel.”
Netanyahu was right. The clashes spilled into other parts of the Old City, including the grounds of the al-Aqsa mosque, which the Israeli police then raided. That night, Hamas launched rockets at Jerusalem. Israel sent devastating air strikes into Gaza. For Ben-Gvir’s supporters, though, that was just the beginning. In messages on WhatsApp and Telegram, they promoted violent demonstrations in Israel’s mixed towns. Ben-Gvir’s ally Gopstein wrote, “Good Jews, we’re arranging a protest in Bat Yam on the promenade at 5 P.M.” That protest ended in the attempted lynching of an Arab man. The following day, Israel’s police chief made a stunningly direct statement in a closed briefing: “The person responsible for this intifada is Itamar Ben-Gvir. . . . The police don’t have the tools to deal with him.”
Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos
As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.
I'm certainly not anti-Israel,but the optics of all these airstrikes is a bad look for Israel(Gaza City looks like a flattened Ukranian village). Hamas has under 50K fighters hiding amongst 2 million civilians,Israel used a 15lb sledgehammer to kill a mosquito w/the bombing campaign.Biden was truthful in stating our mistakes post 9/11 to try to blunt Israel's response to the Hamas attack,we are already at a 10/1 casualty ratio here and I fear Israel has stoked more hatred among all the Palestinian youth in Gaza which is forboding for the future. I've always admired Israel for their togetherness as a people to survive as a tiny country and defy incredible odds against 3 sided attacks by much larger Arab countries.The 1948 creation of a Jewish state was a noble reaction by the West which didn't conduct ONE mission against death camps during the Holocaust. It did, however, screw Palestinians and create a homeless pop. of refugees at the outset and 70+ yrs. later we have hard right Israeli's still building settlements on Palestinian land. A just peace has to be forged and the actions of both sides make it less attainable in my view. A 2 state solution has to be instated,sacrifices need to be made,settlements outside of Israel proper need to be bulldozed,Israel's existence as a sovereign Jewish state needs to be accepted,US and Egypt and Jordan with the rich Arab gulf states can exert the necessary pressure to make this happen and end it once and for all,it won't be easy but the time has come,otherwise armegeddon is coming to this region,time and technology are making a tiny country like Israel more vulnerable as we speak,a massive suicide drone attack on Dimona (where Israel's nuke reactor is located) could make Israel uninhabitable. I'm certainly not Henry Kissinger on geo-politics but a supreme effort to resolve this has to happen,maybe the loss and despair on both sides and the inevitable collapse of Netanyahu's ultra right govt. will pave the way.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
This is a situation where everybody has an opinion, and nobody has solutions, including myself, perhaps there are no solutions to be had. Perhaps the fighting will continue for what, another century, a 100 year war, or perhaps 200?
Perhaps that is why it interests me so little, there are no solutions, no justice, no peace I suppose. It must be dealt with though, and I would not want to be the one to do it! Joe has his work cut out to keep it from escalating and Bebe has yet to face his reckoning in Israel for allowing this shit to happen on his watch. Bebe's problem is like Trump's, once out of power he risks prison for his past crimes, that fight isn't over either.
Perhaps that is why it interests me so little, there are no solutions, no justice, no peace I suppose. It must be dealt with though, and I would not want to be the one to do it! Joe has his work cut out to keep it from escalating and Bebe has yet to face his reckoning in Israel for allowing this shit to happen on his watch. Bebe's problem is like Trump's, once out of power he risks prison for his past crimes, that fight isn't over either.
Sickofitall420247
Well-Known Member
Reinstate the kingdom of Jerusalem. We've given the jews and Muslims a fair shot. Let's retake the holy land for Christians.
DIY-HP-LED
Well-Known Member
I dunno if the Pope would sanction another crusade...
Netanyahu's gambit in forming Israel's present govt. was disgraceful in that he formed ties w/ultra right lunatics to gain the majority,in previous govts. that he led he'd never have given these people the time of day. The defense head,Gallant,has given 10k AR-15's to hard right settlers on the West Bank,only carnage will result from the present Israeli govt which is why Israel was caught off guard protesting the the proposed weakening of their Supreme Court by this current ultra right govt. Netanyahu got in bed with to avoid criminal prosecution,sounds familiar an ocean away doesn't it?
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
the irony of Israel having a Reichstag fire analog is profound and distressing.
Fangthane
Well-Known Member
For the horror movie fans:
www.etonline.com
Not sure I saw anything even vaguely anti-Semitic in her comments. IF the movie even gets made at all now, I have a feeling it's going to take a huge Box Office hit after losing 2 of it's main stars. Not to mention the people who might boycott it just on general principle. May be a huge fuckup for Spyglass.
Melissa Barrera Addresses 'Scream 7' Firing Over Israel-Hamas Comments
On Tuesday, it was announced that Barrera was quietly dropped from the upcoming 'Scream' film over comments she made online.
www.etonline.com
Not sure I saw anything even vaguely anti-Semitic in her comments. IF the movie even gets made at all now, I have a feeling it's going to take a huge Box Office hit after losing 2 of it's main stars. Not to mention the people who might boycott it just on general principle. May be a huge fuckup for Spyglass.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Fogdog
Well-Known Member
For the horror movie fans:
Melissa Barrera Addresses 'Scream 7' Firing Over Israel-Hamas Comments
On Tuesday, it was announced that Barrera was quietly dropped from the upcoming 'Scream' film over comments she made online.
Not sure I saw anything even vaguely anti-Semitic in her comments. IF the movie even gets made at all now, I have a feeling it's going to take a huge Box Office hit after losing 2 of it's main stars. Not to mention the people who might boycott it just on general principle. May be a huge fuckup for Spyglass.
Not sure I saw anything even vaguely anti-Semitic in her comments. IF the movie even gets made at all now, I have a feeling it's going to take a huge Box Office hit after losing 2 of it's main stars. Not to mention the people who might boycott it just on general principle. May be a huge fuckup for Spyglass.
[/QUOTE]
Other articles say there was more than just that one Instagram post and that one post discussed in the article talked as if somebody could be a member of Hamas and NOT be a raving anti-Semitic lunatic. Kind of like saying not all members of the KKK are racist.