Please Explain?

[IndooorGardnerOhio]

I keep seeing things like "find multiple phenos" or "Pheno Hunting" and the like, and I will admit I am so new that this confuses me. Can someone explain what exactly this means and explain it like your talking to a 10 year old that doesnt even know what Cannabis is? As I have said before, back when I was smoking all you said was Low,Mid or high and the weight, we didnt know anything about the weed or even what strain it was or what a Pheno was.

 

[Tolerance Break]

You have an ab strain and a AB strain, they have 4 babies, aA, aB, Ba, and bB.

Each of them have their own unique personalities and differences. One may be stronger, one may be tall, one may be fast, and one might have all of those traits.

You're hunting for the latter of the 4, but the act of hunting is where all the fun is.

 

[MtRainDog]

Pheno hunting is planting seeds of the same cultivar in larger numbers and finding outstanding specimens.

A small hunt might be just a single pack of seeds, and selecting the best one for your keeper.

A large hunt might involve hundreds or even thousands of plants.

 

[Boatguy]

I keep seeing things like "find multiple phenos" or "Pheno Hunting" and the like, and I will admit I am so new that this confuses me. Can someone explain what exactly this means and explain it like your talking to a 10 year old that doesnt even know what Cannabis is? As I have said before, back when I was smoking all you said was Low,Mid or high and the weight, we didnt know anything about the weed or even what strain it was or what a Pheno was.

Pheno hunting is a bit of a project and why many dont bother if limited on space. You have to grow out all the plants till harvest, dry and see what the effects, final quantity, etc is and make your choice.
Meanwhile you are vegging clones that you took from each of the plants in a separate grow space, or are attempting to reveg your test plants, till you select which one is the "keeper" based on what your preference is. ... Then you keep that as a mother and grow out the clones.

If you are a small home grower you can save yourself alot of time and effort by buying a clone of a strain you like and use that a mother. Basically let someone else do the work.

 

[Blue_Focus]

You have an ab strain and a AB strain, they have 4 babies, aA, aB, Ba, and bB.

Each of them have their own unique personalities and differences. One may be stronger, one may be tall, one may be fast, and one might have all of those traits.

You're hunting for the latter of the 4, but the act of hunting is where all the fun is.

I watched a video on this on YouTube. I don't remember who put it out. I've watched so many.

 

[Tolerance Break]

I watched a video on this on YouTube. I don't remember who put it out. I've watched so many.

I think I learned about it in highchsool science, but I was high then, and I have had to learn it all again through canabis lol

 

[ec121]

Post #2 is obviously the correct explanation.

A more simple explanation is when you see two brothers and one of them is a foot taller, excels at sports, and sucks at school, and the other brother is unathletic, short, and school is easy for him.

Those are two different phenotypes from the same parents.

 

[Sativied]

explain it like your talking to a 10 year old that doesnt even know what Cannabis is?

Imagine mommy and daddy really want one nice smart handsome kid. First kid they produce is you but they don’t like how you turned out so they create a bunch of kids, two younger brothers and two sisters. One of your new little brothers is dumb af and looks funny, the other is a strong handsome tall guy and great a math. One of your new little sisters smells like poo, the other like jasmin. Mommy and daddy kill you, your ahole brother, and your stinky sister. They then tell your smart bro and fragrant sis to make their own babies. Some of those babies are dumb, ugly, or just not special in any way. Some are smart AND smell like jasmin. Some even smell like roses and are great at catching footballs too, you won’t know - well you’re dead so duh… - nobody can know in advance if any babies are good or special, but we‘ll tell them to keep making babies till that special baby is born. Phenohunting is making babies till one of you little shits turns out special. And when that happens, we clone the special baby to make copies. Or we tell that baby to make many babies with herself, or maybe ask grandpa or your smarter brother to make many babies with your special niece so we can share and sell those babies to others who also want special kids. We may even rent out your special niece to the neighbors, so they to can try to hunt for a special baby instead of that little retard they got.

IHTH

 

[Sativied]

Ok let’s try 16 y/o:

As with many terms related to botany and genetics, they’re slightly misused in the cannabis scene. A better word would be genotype hunting. This matters only because to understand what a phenotype is you first need to understand what a genotype is.

Even if you don’t know what cannabis is yet, surely you know what a goat is. As you probably noticed, not all goats look exactly the same. Some have longer tails, some have bigger ears, some look far cuter than others, some are huge, some remain small, some have blue eyes, others brown or amber. They are not all identical because they all have a slighlty different set of genes, which is like a recipe, a blueprint, of which half comes from the mother goat and half comes from the father goat. If mom and dad goat make multiple baby goats, those babies will get a slighlty different half of the each parent’s genes. One baby goat might look like its father when you look at size and horns, but that same goat might have its mother’s eyes.

Unless you clone goats, and unless you have an identical twin for example, all goats have a slighlty different set of genes. That is, they have a different “genotype“. How different varies a lot. Sometimes the children of two goats all look similar and are clearly children of those particular parents. Other times some of the children may look like they’ve been adopted. Sometimes the parents are second cousins and all their kids look very similar - you know the type. Sometimes one parent is white, the other parent a beautiful black Nubian goat and their baby goats look like a mix.

So, different goats, different genotypes. However, even when they are of the same genotype, they can look different. If an identical twin gets separated at birth and one baby goat grows up in the desert and the other in snowy mountains, and meet each other years later, they may not recognize each other because they grew up in different environments. This is because:

Phenotype = Genotype + Environment

So even when they have the same genes from the same parents, thus the same genotype, those genes might express themselves differently. Genotype is the blueprint, phenotype is the actual result.


In terms of cannabis, when you have an ibl (inbreed line), most plants in that family will be very similar. Which is a good thing if it produces high yield or other traits you prefer. It means you can grow seeds from the same parents and can reasonably expect all plants to produce similar bud, good when you want to sell the whole batch for example. But it also limits variation. So what we do is cross two different genotypes, like our skinny Nubian princess goat with a white goat, or for cannabis, an indica with a sativa. This results in a variety of plants, some more indica, some more sativa, some clearly a mix. If we cross some of these ‘children’ (into F2) we get a wide variety of grandkids, where the genotype is a different combination of the grandparents’ traits. We can (outcross) one of these grandkids with a completely different variety of cannabis again, adding even more variation to the gene soup. It’s in all that variation that we hunt for new phenotypes genotypes. Grandma may smell like oranges, grandpa like birdshit. Their kids may smell like either, or a mix. Their grandkids have more chances of smelling completely different than both grandparents.

An oversimplified example of what would better fit the misnomer pheno hunting would be purposefully lowering temps to see if some plants turn purple or can still thrive in colder wet environments. On the otherhand, what we see IS only the phenotype. To see the genotype you’d need to extract and read the DNA (or gauge by testing how traits inherit but that’s out of scope here).

 

[Sativied]

Post #2 actually says nothing about phenotype or phenotype hunting. That’s a good example of genotypes. When you aim for a specific genotype, you’re breeding, not hunting. When you’re looking to create something new/special, you make gene soup by combining the genotypes from different varieties and from that soup hope to run into something new.

The difference matters cause phenotype hunting is a common pitfall in breeding projects. You aim to create something (breed to stablize or combine certain traits) but during that process run into new phenotypes, which might even be better than what you initially set out to create. Which you then select based on its phenotype (what you see) while for breeding in and stablizing (so its offspring gets the same traits) you want to select a specific genotype, which you can find out based on determing whether genes are dominant or recessive by testing its offspring.

 

[Sativied]

While I‘m at it…

Post from 9 years ago:

Self-proclaimed breeders occasionally bring up Mendel and Punnet, but what they should really be looking into is
Wilhelm Johannsen's work, the Genotype-Phenotype Distinction, his work on pure-line breeding and the discovery of hybrid vigor...

In reality it’s more complicated because traits are often the results of a combination of many genes, but, for example:

Parent 1 genotype for fat buds AA. Phenotype is fat buds too.
Parent 2 genotype for mediocre buds is aa. Phenotype is mediocre buds too.

Their (F1) offspring will all have genotype Aa. Now when A is dominant, the effect of the A gene from parent 1 has a stronger expression than ’a’ (sometimes complete overwhelming the effect of ‘a’). In that case ‘a’ is recessive. The genotype Aa will then still produce the fat buds phenotype.

Now if you cross two of those Aa genotypes into an F2, the genotype falls apart in its possible Mendelian combinations (predictable percentages that don’t apply unless you have many many plants). The genotypes and phenotypes of the F2 will be:
- Genotype 1 (homozygous) AA - Phenotype fat buds
- Genotype 2 (heterozygou) Aa - Phenotype fat buds
- Genotype 3 (homozygous) aa - Phenotype mediocre buds

To produce (F3) seeds from those plants and end up with seeds that all produce fat bud plants, you need to select two plants (or self 1) that do not only have the fat buds phenotype (what you see) but have genotype 1 AA.

If you were to select based purely on phenotype, you might pick two plants with genotype Aa again and again end up with the 3 genotypes above. Or you’d pick a fat bud pheno with genotype AA and one with Aa and end up, which would results in AA and Aa genotypes and thus all fat bud phenotypes, but then you might pick two Aa again in a next generation.

Additionally, preferably you end up with something homozygous so when you outcross it to a different something you can better predict the outcome and/or create proper hybrids.

The fact one of the parents is normally a male obviously complicates matters but it’s just an example.

That all said. Unless you can run a couple of thousand plants or can read the dna or focus on just one or two traits, it’s often not very fruitful to chase specific genotypes. Most of the good stuff is the result of crossing different varieties into a genepool and in that hunt for phenos. Clone or self the best. Or backcross to a parent/grandparent which you think is homozygous. Or do open pollination with muliple males and only use the seeds from the females with the desired traits. Read the book, then throw it out.

 

[medidedicated]

While I‘m at it…

Post from 9 years ago:


In reality it’s more complicated because traits are often the results of a combination of many genes, but, for example:

Parent 1 genotype for fat buds AA. Phenotype is fat buds too.
Parent 2 genotype for mediocre buds is aa. Phenotype is mediocre buds too.

Their (F1) offspring will all have genotype Aa. Now when A is dominant, the effect of the A gene from parent 1 has a stronger expression than ’a’ (sometimes complete overwhelming the effect of ‘a’). In that case ‘a’ is recessive. The genotype Aa will then still produce the fat buds phenotype.

Now if you cross two of those Aa genotypes into an F2, the genotype falls apart in its possible Mendelian combinations (predictable percentages that don’t apply unless you have many many plants). The genotypes and phenotypes of the F2 will be:
- Genotype 1 (homozygous) AA - Phenotype fat buds
- Genotype 2 (heterozygou) Aa - Phenotype fat buds
- Genotype 3 (homozygous) aa - Phenotype mediocre buds

To produce (F3) seeds from those plants and end up with seeds that all produce fat bud plants, you need to select two plants (or self 1) that do not only have the fat buds phenotype (what you see) but have genotype 1 AA.

If you were to select based purely on phenotype, you might pick two plants with genotype Aa again and again end up with the 3 genotypes above. Or you’d pick a fat bud pheno with genotype AA and one with Aa and end up, which would results in AA and Aa genotypes and thus all fat bud phenotypes, but then you might pick two Aa again in a next generation.

Additionally, preferably you end up with something homozygous so when you outcross it to a different something you can better predict the outcome and/or create proper hybrids.

The fact one of the parents is normally a male obviously complicates matters but it’s just an example.

That all said. Unless you can run a couple of thousand plants or can read the dna or focus on just one or two traits, it’s often not very fruitful to chase specific genotypes. Most of the good stuff is the result of crossing different varieties into a genepool and in that hunt for phenos. Clone or self the best. Or backcross to a parent/grandparent which you think is homozygous. Or do open pollination with muliple males and only use the seeds from the females with the desired traits. Read the book, then throw it out.

How likely are clones to create exact replicas of the mother? What could affect them to be slightly different? I guess you answered that, enviorment right? Or could I see variances in the same enviorment? Are absence of sacs/nanners something that likely will stay absent through the clones?

Things I was hoping to replicate are knowing apprx how tall it will stretch and how it mostly flowers so I can fill in canopy best I can and get better each time. No sacs/nanners. That they yield rosin. Easier time lining up vegged clones to harvest times, knowing when it finishes just about. Any advice?

Trying to perpetuate two small tents so I dont have the space to do an actual hunt, just hoping to get lucky doing a less comprehensive hunt. Just finding something to get started with small space 12 plants.

 

[LeastExpectedGrower]

How likely are clones to create exact replicas of the mother? What could affect them to be slightly different? I guess you answered that, enviorment right? Or could I see variances in the same enviorment? Are absence of sacs/nanners something that likely will stay absent through the clones?

Things I was hoping to replicate are knowing apprx how tall it will stretch and how it mostly flowers so I can fill in canopy best I can and get better each time. No sacs/nanners. That they yield rosin. Easier time lining up vegged clones to harvest times, knowing when it finishes just about. Any advice?

Trying to perpetuate two small tents so I dont have the space to do an actual hunt, just hoping to get lucky doing a less comprehensive hunt. Just finding something to get started with small space 12 plants.

Clones ARE exact replicas of the mother. Unless characteristics are driven by the grow environment they're genetically identical to the parent plant.

 

[Sativied]

Are absence of sacs/nanners something that likely will stay absent through the clones?

That's one of the main reason we (in NL) had once a very thriving half-legal clone trade, before seeds got so popular. To share sensimilla (seedless cannabis), so we didn't have to pluck out seeds out of bud before rolling it in a joint.

But yes, it's all about uniformity. Given the same/similar circumstances, clones will produce the same plants.

And yes, that is a good example of genotype and phenotype difference. Some hermies (females with male flowers) are genetically so messed up they almost always create hermies. But plants that normally don't create seeds can still be stressed in various ways and produce male flowers. Mess with light, keep 'm too dry, or let them flower beyond the season they expect (how some used to create feminized seeds).

Environment is a very broad term here. If you see a difference in the same environment, the environment isn't as similar as it may seem. Simple example again is temp. Just a few degrees lower night temp can have a drastic effect on for example color. Slightly less veg time translates to a different environment, like a shorter spring, less roots, etc, etc.

If the mother plant is not kept healthy its clones may not produce as well, and then clones from those clones possibly even worse. But generally speaking, yes, clones are replicas. Hence the term clone-only strain. Once you create seeds with it, genes mix and recombine always resulting in variation you don't have with clones.

 

[IndooorGardnerOhio]

Imagine mommy and daddy really want one nice smart handsome kid. First kid they produce is you but they don’t like how you turned out so they create a bunch of kids, two younger brothers and two sisters. One of your new little brothers is dumb af and looks funny, the other is a strong handsome tall guy and great a math. One of your new little sisters smells like poo, the other like jasmin. Mommy and daddy kill you, your ahole brother, and your stinky sister. They then tell your smart bro and fragrant sis to make their own babies. Some of those babies are dumb, ugly, or just not special in any way. Some are smart AND smell like jasmin. Some even smell like roses and are great at catching footballs too, you won’t know - well you’re dead so duh… - nobody can know in advance if any babies are good or special, but we‘ll tell them to keep making babies till that special baby is born. Phenohunting is making babies till one of you little shits turns out special. And when that happens, we clone the special baby to make copies. Or we tell that baby to make many babies with herself, or maybe ask grandpa or your smarter brother to make many babies with your special niece so we can share and sell those babies to others who also want special kids. We may even rent out your special niece to the neighbors, so they to can try to hunt for a special baby instead of that little retard they got.

IHTH

Thank you so much dude, your three post explained exactly what I was trying to learn and were funny as hell in the process.

 

[IndooorGardnerOhio]

Post #2 is obviously the correct explanation.

A more simple explanation is when you see two brothers and one of them is a foot taller, excels at sports, and sucks at school, and the other brother is unathletic, short, and school is easy for him.

Those are two different phenotypes from the same parents.

I literally see phenotypes in my own kids and never really realized it lmao.