The renewable energy changes and policy

[cannabineer]

Problem with that is the different time frames involved. The self or by law imposed emission reduction targets, the national targets, EU targets, and the required infrastructure for both mining and transportation as well as the conversion of the steel factories, no small feat either. France can make some good money with it but for policies and the need to address climate change asap it’s inconsequential. It’s a way for Macron to attract more investments, and make them (subsidies results in investments).

Same for bold titled youtube vids, that’s not what policies and the resulting billion of dollars costing strategies are based on. Strategies for the next several decades. The electrolysers being built for billions now aren’t going to be replaced in a few years, instead it will take years before they can produce significant amounts and Shell and others get to make their money back first, and then some.


Depends a lot on what you mean with few but the problem is that abundance is then global total. And that’s the crux of the situation. We’re not talking about a few wind parks or solar fields. but massive chunks of land and sea (ours is full), chunks of entire countries (like a quarter of Oman), a chunk of Africa. And parts of repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia, for which they’ll be well paid. It’s why NL jumped on the opportunity to make a deal with Australia (when they started building green hydrogen factory), literally the other side of the world but at least they're the good guys and somewhat stable.

Big oil is betting against that abundance (so they can provide gray or blue hydrogen for the infrastructure we’ll then depend on). It’s also extremely inefficient, at the end of the line only 40-60% of the renewable energy that went in remains for use. They win either way, who do you think builds those electrolysers and hydrogen factories across the globe. That abundance doesn't exist, won't in a few years either. Who owns the gray (and possibly blue) hydrogen factories to make up for the shortage... same companies that pushed it through the largest lobbying attempts Europe has ever seen. Same companies that want us to drive on hydrogen. Same companies already complaining 'make it more profitable'.

While not everything can be electrified, once this is all set up, and we neocolonized Africa (which will have an extra hard time reaching their own targets as a result), that seemingly green but very costly hydrogen isn't going to quench our thirst for more industry and more meat and more fabrication and more destruction of the planet.

All the hydrogen we could ever need is only 150m kilometers away. “Ya can’t miss it!”

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Problem with that is the different time frames involved. The self or by law imposed emission reduction targets, the national targets, EU targets, and the required infrastructure for both mining and transportation as well as the conversion of the steel factories, no small feat either. France can make some good money with it but for policies and the need to address climate change asap it’s inconsequential. It’s a way for Macron to attract more investments, and make them (subsidies results in investments).

Same for bold titled youtube vids, that’s not what policies and the resulting billion of dollars costing strategies are based on. Strategies for the next several decades. The electrolysers being built for billions now aren’t going to be replaced in a few years, instead it will take years before they can produce significant amounts and Shell and others get to make their money back first, and then some.


Depends a lot on what you mean with few but the problem is that abundance is then global total. And that’s the crux of the situation. We’re not talking about a few wind parks or solar fields. but massive chunks of land and sea (ours is full), chunks of entire countries (like a quarter of Oman), a chunk of Africa. And parts of repressive regimes like Saudi Arabia, for which they’ll be well paid. It’s why NL jumped on the opportunity to make a deal with Australia (when they started building green hydrogen factory), literally the other side of the world but at least they're the good guys and somewhat stable.

Big oil is betting against that abundance (so they can provide gray or blue hydrogen for the infrastructure we’ll then depend on). It’s also extremely inefficient, at the end of the line only 40-60% of the renewable energy that went in remains for use. They win either way, who do you think builds those electrolysers and hydrogen factories across the globe. That abundance doesn't exist, won't in a few years either. Who owns the gray (and possibly blue) hydrogen factories to make up for the shortage... same companies that pushed it through the largest lobbying attempts Europe has ever seen. Same companies that want us to drive on hydrogen. Same companies already complaining 'make it more profitable'.

While not everything can be electrified, once this is all set up, and we neocolonized Africa (which will have an extra hard time reaching their own targets as a result), that seemingly green but very costly hydrogen isn't going to quench our thirst for more industry and more meat and more fabrication and more destruction of the planet.

My own opinion is hydrogen should be restricted to industrial use and NG too for now, it is needed for fertilizer and green steel among other things, and it is best used where it is made sustainably. We will have an impact on the planet and environment, but if we can minimize our impact and go green (as now looks possible with renewables and storage) then global populations should decline as more women become educated and emancipated. Finding an alternative to the Haber Bosch process that can be powered by renewables and might work at smaller scales for farmers coops and such could change the dynamic. I think that home solar and storage for many homeowners (in North America at least) will allow less centralization, concentration of wealth and power and more energy independence for home and small business owners and farmers too eventually, no more protests over diesel subsidies or fuel prices with electric tractors and most farmers use a tractor as a general purpose machine.

 

[Sativied]

i always thought Hydrogen was corrosive.......i could be wrong with that thinking

Nothing big oil and gas can't fix after a few billion in subsidies. And problem primarily for many existing gas pipes. 'Solutions' involve injecting it into natural gas to transport but there's a limit.

Why the Netherlands’ planned hydrogen network will be difficult to replicate in other countries | Recharge

About 85% of the new H2 system would consist of repurposed natural gas pipes, while parallel lines provide ‘probably unique’ opportunity

www.rechargenews.com

"To start with, about 85% of the new hydrogen network will consist of repurposed natural-gas pipelines — which would be 65-94% cheaper than building new H2 pipes, according to the International Renewable Energy Agency’s recent Global Hydrogen Trade report."

“[This] situation in the Netherlands is probably unique in that we have the most advanced and sophisticated network in the world, given our history with the abundance of natural gas in Groningen and the many small gas fields both onshore and offshore in such a small country.”

Under Groningen is the largest gas field in Europe, recently closed. Contrary to Norway we didn't put the profits into a fund but spend it on welfare, socialism, and weed. And, a gas network that requires relatively little adjustments.

 

[BudmanTX]

Nothing a big oil and gas can't fix after a few billion in subsidies. And problem primarily for many existing gas pipes. 'Solutions' involve injecting it into natural gas to transport but there's a limit.

Why the Netherlands’ planned hydrogen network will be difficult to replicate in other countries | Recharge

About 85% of the new H2 system would consist of repurposed natural gas pipes, while parallel lines provide ‘probably unique’ opportunity

www.rechargenews.com

"To start with, about 85% of the new hydrogen network will consist of repurposed natural-gas pipelines — which would be 65-94% cheaper than building new H2 pipes, according to the International Renewable Energy Agency’s recent Global Hydrogen Trade report."

“[This] situation in the Netherlands is probably unique in that we have the most advanced and sophisticated network in the world, given our history with the abundance of natural gas in Groningen and the many small gas fields both onshore and offshore in such a small country.”

Under Groningen is the largest gas field in Europe, recently closed. Contrary to Norway we didn't put the profits into a fund but spend it on welfare, socialism, and weed. And, a gas network that requires relatively little adjustments.

that is cool, glad NL has the network going. I was reading earlier when you guys were talking about Hydrogen and it problable uses...so i decided to do a little research on the corrossivness of Hydrogen and i came across this:

Hydrogen embrittlement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sativied]

My own opinion is hydrogen should be restricted to industrial use and NG too for now,

Yeah but your or my opinion is of no relevance to big oil and gas companies and their shareholders who see a threat to their piggy bank.

In Germany they've been doing tests with mixing hydrogen into the existing natural gas supply, up to 30%, since 2022. For heating homes:

The Hydrogen Stream: German grid operator increases hydrogen blend in regional gas network

Netze BW has increased the amount of hydrogen it is injecting into the regional grid of Oehringen, in the southwest of Germany, from 20% to 30%. <b>pv magazine</b> spoke with the project leader, Heike Grüner, about the next phases of the project.

www.pv-magazine.com

It's also already done, but capped by law, in natural gas fueled power plants.

Drive a Toyota Mirai or Hyundai Nexo? Check h2.live for places to fill 'er up. Tough in France but np in NL and west Germany.

 

[cannabineer]

Yeah but your or my opinion is of no relevance to big oil and gas companies and their shareholders who see a threat to their piggy bank.

In Germany they've been doing tests with mixing hydrogen into the existing natural gas supply, up to 30%, since 2022. For heating homes:

The Hydrogen Stream: German grid operator increases hydrogen blend in regional gas network

Netze BW has increased the amount of hydrogen it is injecting into the regional grid of Oehringen, in the southwest of Germany, from 20% to 30%. <b>pv magazine</b> spoke with the project leader, Heike Grüner, about the next phases of the project.

www.pv-magazine.com

It's also already done, but capped by law, in natural gas fueled power plants.

Drive a Toyota Mirai or Hyundai Nexo? Check h2.live for places to fill 'er up. Tough in France but np in NL and west Germany.

View attachment 5359619

is there a key to the symbols?

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Yeah but your or my opinion is of no relevance to big oil and gas companies and their shareholders who see a threat to their piggy bank.

In Germany they've been doing tests with mixing hydrogen into the existing natural gas supply, up to 30%, since 2022. For heating homes:

The Hydrogen Stream: German grid operator increases hydrogen blend in regional gas network

Netze BW has increased the amount of hydrogen it is injecting into the regional grid of Oehringen, in the southwest of Germany, from 20% to 30%. <b>pv magazine</b> spoke with the project leader, Heike Grüner, about the next phases of the project.

www.pv-magazine.com

It's also already done, but capped by law, in natural gas fueled power plants.

Drive a Toyota Mirai or Hyundai Nexo? Check h2.live for places to fill 'er up. Tough in France but np in NL and west Germany.

View attachment 5359619

This is what I'm basing my opinion of hydrogen on for now, until more work is done, it might have some impact on policy moving forward.

With increasing global interest in molecular hydrogen to replace fossil fuels, more attention is being paid to potential leakages of hydrogen into the atmosphere and its environmental consequences. Hydrogen is not directly a greenhouse gas, but its chemical reactions change the abundances of the greenhouse gases methane, ozone, and stratospheric water vapor, as well as aerosols. Here, we use a model ensemble of five global atmospheric chemistry models to estimate the 100-year time-horizon Global Warming Potential (GWP100) of hydrogen. We estimate a hydrogen GWP100 of 11.6 ± 2.8 (one standard deviation). The uncertainty range covers soil uptake, photochemical production of hydrogen, the lifetimes of hydrogen and methane, and the hydroxyl radical feedback on methane and hydrogen. The hydrogen-induced changes are robust across the different models. It will be important to keep hydrogen leakages at a minimum to accomplish the benefits of switching to a hydrogen economy.

A multi-model assessment of the Global Warming Potential of hydrogen - Communications Earth & Environment

The 100-year Global Warming Potential of hydrogen falls in the range 11.6 ± 2.8, according to chemistry-model estimates, through its chemical impact on methane, ozone and stratospheric water vapor. It is therefore important to avoid leakages in a hydrogen economy, to help mitigate climate change.

www.nature.com

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Looks like solar, batteries and electrochemistry for what we can including ammonia production. Save hydrogen for green steel production and other processes where it is needed, if this research is confirmed or extended hydrogen could be a nonstarter for mass global use.

Hydrogen is a more potent greenhouse gas than previously reported, new study reveals | Hydrogen Insight

Indirect atmospheric warming effects of H2 shown with more certainty to be higher than ever, increasing climate risk of hydrogen leakage

www.hydrogeninsight.com

The paper, which used five different modelling techniques to arrive at its conclusions instead of the typical one, also calculated that the GWP over 20 years for hydrogen is a whopping 37.3 ± 15.1, while over 500 years it is minimal at 3.31 ± 0.98.

GWP is measured against the warming potential of a kilogram of carbon dioxide, meaning that in the study’s central range, a kilogram of hydrogen would have the same warming effect as 11.6 kilograms of CO2.

 

[Sativied]

is there a key to the symbols?

Green is now open, red is now closed, blue is being implemented and its outer circle shows its completion level. Never seen a hydrogen car, there's less than a thousand in NL. Many of the stations in NL are subsidized by the government and created for trucks. There are also 60 hydrogen buses in NL. Doesn't sound like lot but there's less than 10K buses in total, roughly 1500 electric:

Groeningen, Netherlands: Qbuzz unveils H2 filling station and 20 hydrogen buses - Sustainable Bus

Groeningen, Netherlands: a new hydrogen filling station in Qbuzz bus depot. 20 new fuel cell buses have been presented

www.sustainable-bus.com

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Green is now open, red is now closed, blue is being implemented and its outer circle shows its completion level. Never seen a hydrogen car, there's less than a thousand in NL. Many of the ones in NL are subsidized by the government and created for trucks. There are also 60 hydrogen buses in NL. Doesn't sound like lot but there's less than 10K buses in total, roughly 1500 electric:

Groeningen, Netherlands: Qbuzz unveils H2 filling station and 20 hydrogen buses - Sustainable Bus

Groeningen, Netherlands: a new hydrogen filling station in Qbuzz bus depot. 20 new fuel cell buses have been presented

www.sustainable-bus.com

The study I just posted could be the death knell for hydrogen as a mass market thing...

 

[cannabineer]

The study I just posted could be the death knell for hydrogen as a mass market thing...

I’m surprised by its indirect greenhouse load.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I’m surprised by its indirect greenhouse load.

I though most of it would escape to space and be carried away by the solar wind.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I’m surprised by its indirect greenhouse load.

Mass use like a hydrogen economy seem to be off the table, renewables, batteries and electrochemistry might do the trick to substitute for the Haber Bosch process I posted about in the climate thread (food production) now has a faradaic efficiency of over 90% and can be used with renewables at smaller scales, if it can be commercialized.

 

[Sativied]

GWP is measured against the warming potential of a kilogram of carbon dioxide, meaning that in the study’s central range, a kilogram of hydrogen would have the same warming effect as 11.6 kilograms of CO2.

Sounds dramatic but that bolded part says nothing significant in the given context. It's not about the warming effect of individual gases, but about the overall impact over time. Instead, compare the CO2 emission of a natural gas or worse coal powered plant to a hydrogen power plant, or car vs car. Not CO2 byproduct to hydrogen leaks. And not like natural gas leaks aren’t disastrous for the climate. That pipeline Ukraine blew up raised Sweden‘s greehouse gas emission by 7%… No, won’t affect any policy other than perhaps quality demands on the infrastructure, but then again, nothing will. The systems have already been designed and are already being built, it’s inevitable. We’ll all be sucking on the hydrogen tits of big oil and governments like a bunch of mother milk junkies in no time.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Sounds dramatic but that bolded part says nothing significant in the given context. It's not about the warming effect of individual gases, but about the overall impact over time. Instead, compare the CO2 emission of a natural gas or worse coal powered plant to a hydrogen power plant, or car vs car. Not CO2 byproduct to hydrogen leaks. And not like natural gas leaks aren’t disastrous for the climate. That pipeline Ukraine blew up raised Sweden‘s greehouse gas emission by 7%… No, won’t affect any policy other than perhaps quality demands on the infrastructure, but then again, nothing will. The systems have already been designed and are already being built, it’s inevitable. We’ll all be sucking on the hydrogen tits of big oil and governments like a bunch of mother milk junkies in no time.

I meant the mass adoption of a "hydrogen economy" with fuel cell powered cars etc. Batteries and solar seemed to have killed the idea and made it look like a vision of the future from the 70s. They like everybody else will have to compete with renewables battery storage and other evolving technologies, nothing lasts forever, not even them and change happens fast these days.

 

[cannabineer]

… the hydrogen tits of big oil and governments

Hindenboobs

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Hydrogen is best made where it is used, and it can be made by renewables, but it will need to compete with wind, solar and batteries for light transportation and many industrial uses. There could be environmental issues with a "hydrogen economy" but it makes green steel and fertilizer and is or could be used for other industrial processes.

Writing for C&N, reporter Alex Scott explained that conventional electrolyzers are only about 70% efficient in terms of converting electricity to chemical energy, while H2Pro’s E-TAC (short for electrochemical thermally activated chemical) system achieves 95% conversion efficiency.

Membrane-Free Green Hydrogen To Chase Fossil Fuel Blues Away

A new electrolysis system can pump green hydrogen from water without an expensive membrane, taking a giant step toward the $1-per-kg goal.

cleantechnica.com

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Brighter | Episode 12 - More on solving climate change

In this episode, Adam presents three 'inconvenient truths' and some other key points that are crucial for understanding how to to fully solve climate change

 

[Sativied]

Hydrogen is best made where it is used,

Yeah and bacon is best served crispy, but things irl don't always work out like it's sim city. Hydrogen is used in industrialized areas, in advanced economies. Where's there's simply not enough space (and sun hours) for renewables for direct use 'and' enough hydrogen production. There is, and much cheaper, in, for example, Africa and China. So hydrogen is compressed, or converted to ammonia, for transport, and then used in fuel cells or even combustion. Every step involves losses, the efficiency of the electrolyser is just the first.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Brighter | Episode 4 - What is disruption?

In Episode 4 of our ‘Brighter’ series, ‘What is disruption?’, RethinkX Director of Research Adam Dorr describes the implications of Wright’s Law, the key dynamic that makes a new technology predictably cheaper as it gets more popular, as well as the death spirals that doom incumbent industries.