The Long March to 11/24

[Fogdog]

Republicans are missing the boat if they choose Trump, because Nikki Haley is a tremendously good politician and is running rings around him when it comes to making a case for why she should be their choice.

MAGA is the GOP base and their leaders control the Republican Party. Trump isn't interested in running this country as a Constitutional Democracy but that is the role of the President of the US under our Constitution. That is what Haley says she would do and she makes clear that that differentiate her from Donald Trump.

For the sake of our democracy, Trump should not be given the chance to win the office in November. From what she says, she'd not the same threat that Trump is. I hope she manages to beat him in the primary or replace him if the SCOTUS disqualifies him. I'd never vote for her over Biden, but over Trump? She's leagues better as a candidate for the office of POTUS than Trump is.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Republicans are missing the boat if they choose Trump, because Nikki Haley is a tremendously good politician and is running rings around him when it comes to making a case for why she should be their choice.

I realize that MAGA isn't interested in running this country as a Constitutional Democracy but they ought to be and that's the case Haley is making.

Its why Trump will destroy her fast, with what he has coming at him, he wants to be the only one standing, even if disqualified and/or criminally convicted by convention day! After he is convicted it will be the White house or the big house and everybody will know it. After Trump lost the Carroll case they are already calling him a loser and after next week he will lose a lot.

 

[Fogdog]

Its why Trump will destroy her fast, with what he has coming at him, he wants to be the only one standing, even if disqualified and/or criminally convicted by convention day! After he is convicted it will be the White house or the big house and everybody will know it. After Trump lost the Carroll case they are already calling him a loser and after next week he will lose a lot.

I don't know about all that. Just saying that Republicans are missing the boat. She's much more electable in a national election than Trump is. I don't think she's nearly the threat to our democracy that Trump is either. So, I hope she either wins the nomination or takes the nomination after Trump is disqualified.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I don't know about all that. Just saying that Republicans are missing the boat. She's much more electable in a national election than Trump is. I don't think she's nearly the threat to our democracy that Trump is either. So, I hope she either wins the nomination or takes the nomination after Trump is disqualified.

She is not a threat but will be under magat pressure and a Trump pardon will be first up. I think she is more of a threat to Biden than Trump but view any republican with few exceptions as unfit.

 

[Fogdog]

She is not a threat but will be under magat pressure and a Trump pardon will be first up. I think she is more of a threat to Biden than Trump but view any republican with few exceptions as unfit.

Yep, she has disqualified herself from my vote by promising to pardon Trump. That and sticking with the treasonous Republican Party. But it is a contradiction to both want her to run as the GOP nominee instead of Trump AND not be a Republican. So, I'll just go with ignoring the fact that she's a Republican until AFTER the GOP convention is over.

I miss the days when the continuance of democracy in the US did not hang on the results of an election. I miss the days when a presidential election was based upon policies and ideas. Maybe Haley's campaign will see us return to good old Democratic Party wins based upon a debate over ideas. It would be a refreshing change.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Yep, she has disqualified herself from my vote by promising to pardon Trump. That and sticking with the treasonous Republican Party. But it is a contradiction to both want her to run as the GOP nominee instead of Trump AND not be a Republican. So, I'll just go with ignoring the fact that she's a Republican until AFTER the GOP convention is over.

I miss the days when the continuance of democracy in the US did not hang on the results of an election. I miss the days when a presidential election was based upon policies and ideas. Maybe Haley's campaign will see us return to good old Democratic Party wins based upon a debate over ideas. It would be a refreshing change.

If they lose badly in November, change will happen quicker for them and America. I mean looking at from a conventional political POV, Trump and the party are a disaster and anybody who votes for them is a fool. The evidence is so overwhelming it is not a matter of opinion but of fact.

 

[Fogdog]

If they lose badly in November, change will happen quicker for them and America. I mean looking at from a conventional political POV, Trump and the party are a disaster and anybody who votes for them is a fool. The evidence is so overwhelming it is not a matter of opinion but of fact.

I don't know about all that. MAGA believers will still be around. They are a plurality in the US now and will be after November, so our democracy will need to be guarded from them for at least two or three more election cycles.

The election to be held this November is all that matters for now. To me, your speculation is just mental masturbation. If it pleases you, have at it but I won't do it with you.

 

[cannabineer]

I don't know about all that. MAGA believers

and the dark money fueling them

will still be around. They are a plurality in the US now and will be after November, so our democracy will need to be guarded from them for at least two or three more election cycles.

The election to be held this November is all that matters for now. To me, your speculation is just mental masturbation. If it pleases you, have at it but I won't do it with you.

lol bingo

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

I don't know about all that. MAGA believers will still be around. They are a plurality in the US now and will be after November, so our democracy will need to be guarded from them for at least two or three more election cycles.

The election to be held this November is all that matters for now. To me, your speculation is just mental masturbation. If it pleases you, have at it but I won't do it with you.

How do you think things will change in America except by the ballot box? Everything is kinda up in the air until the courts speak, which will be soon.

 

[Fogdog]

How do you think things will change in America except by the ballot box? Everything is kinda up in the air until the courts speak, which will be soon.

Extremists who support Trump are mostly old men. They won't change but they will die out. Until then we can suppress their illiberal urges by voting in large numbers against their causes and candidates. In that way we can effect change but it won't change the fact that MAGA will remain a plurality in the US after November and therefore will remain a threat for a good while.

These are facts:

• The invaders of the Capitol Building were 90% white.
• The invaders of the Capitol Building were 83% male.
• The invaders of the Capitol Building were mostly well off.
• The invaders of the Capitol Building were from Democratically controlled cities and states
• Almost to the man, the invaders of the Capitol Building believed that white men are being replaced by Black or brown people through unfair US/Democratic Party policies that favor them over white men.
• There are tens of millions of other white men who also believe the white replacement conspiracy theory. A difference between them and the ones who attacked the Capitol Building is that they do not now believe in violent action against it.

This has people who are responsible for national security alarmed. If we stay the course that we are currently on, nothing that can be done to address their grievances. If we stay the course we are on, there is concern that many more of the millions who are now nonviolent will flip to violence. And so, no. America will not change at the ballot box but the ballot box is fundamentally important.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Extremists who support Trump are mostly old men. They won't change but they will die out. Until then we can suppress their illiberal urges by voting in large numbers against their causes and candidates. In that way we can effect change but it won't change the fact that MAGA will remain a plurality in the US after November and therefore will remain a threat for a good while.

These are facts:

• The invaders of the Capitol Building were 90% white.
• The invaders of the Capitol Building were 83% male.
• The invaders of the Capitol Building were mostly well off.
• The invaders of the Capitol Building were from Democratically controlled cities and states
• Almost to the man, the invaders of the Capitol Building believed that white men are being replaced by Black or brown people through unfair US/Democratic Party policies that favor them over white men.
• There are tens of millions of other white men who also believe the white replacement conspiracy theory. A difference between them and the ones who attacked the Capitol Building is that they do not now believe in violent action against it.

This has people who are responsible for national security alarmed. If we stay the course that we are currently on, nothing that can be done to address their grievances. If we stay the course we are on, there is concern that many more of the millions who are now nonviolent will flip to violence. And so, no. America will not change at the ballot box but the ballot box is fundamentally important.

Demographics and generational change are big factors, but many are still able to think and change and the more radical the magats get, the smaller they get and the more unappealing their policies and candidates, if any, will be to the general population. HR-1 and voting rights can change demographics, as can redistricting. Hearings on media in America might rein in foxnews, if the lawsuits don't first.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

Yep, she has disqualified herself from my vote by promising to pardon Trump. That and sticking with the treasonous Republican Party. But it is a contradiction to both want her to run as the GOP nominee instead of Trump AND not be a Republican. So, I'll just go with ignoring the fact that she's a Republican until AFTER the GOP convention is over.

I miss the days when the continuance of democracy in the US did not hang on the results of an election. I miss the days when a presidential election was based upon policies and ideas. Maybe Haley's campaign will see us return to good old Democratic Party wins based upon a debate over ideas. It would be a refreshing change.

In Canada we will likely have an asshole conservative PM, cut from the same cloth as those down south. He is no real threat to our democracy, but in Canada when we elect a majority government, we basically elect a dictatorship in a unicameral house. Policy responsibility and results are clear cut here and when we fuck up, we do a good job of it!

 

[Fogdog]

Demographics and generational change are big factors, but many are still able to think and change and the more radical the magats get, the smaller they get and the more unappealing their policies and candidates, if any, will be to the general population. HR-1 and voting rights can change demographics, as can redistricting. Hearings on media in America might rein in foxnews, if the lawsuits don't first.

You really don't get it though you talk as if you think you do.

Politics for these MAGA types is something like a tribe or a church or family. They don't leave or change. Most will die that way. They aren't going to ever think they were wrong or reconsider their political beliefs, especially when they wave their hands over election results and say it was rigged if they lost. Demographic and generational shift are the only ways in which this ends. Which is why Republicans are trying to do in democracy in such radical ways such as vote in a wannabe dictator. They can't beat time but can take the right to vote and disenfranchise the new voters that are coming our way due to demographic shift and generational change.

 

[cannabineer]

You really don't get it though you talk as if you think you do.

Politics for these MAGA types is something like a tribe or a church or family. They don't leave change. Most will die that way. They aren't going to ever think they were wrong or reconsider their political beliefs, especially when they wave their hands over election results and say it was rigged if they lost. Demographic and generational shift are the only ways in which this ends. Which is why Republicans are trying to do in democracy in such radical ways such as vote in a wannabe dictator. They can't beat time but can take the right to vote and disenfranchise the new voters that are coming our way due to demographic shift and generational change.

It is sobering how little support from the base, and from Republicans in power, that man has lost.

Those of us who aren’t invested see a charlatan shaking apart under multifocal stresses. Loyalists see a man being torn apart by insidious political foes, like martyrs vs. lions in an amphitheater. It’s beyond repair except by the generational turnover you describe.

And if the lords of dark money are foiled after this round, in another sixty to eighty years they try again, unless society changes in basic and unforeseeable ways.

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

You really don't get it though you talk as if you think you do.

Politics for these MAGA types is something like a tribe or a church or family. They don't leave change. Most will die that way. They aren't going to ever think they were wrong or reconsider their political beliefs, especially when they wave their hands over election results and say it was rigged if they lost. Demographic and generational shift are the only ways in which this ends. Which is why Republicans are trying to do in democracy in such radical ways such as vote in a wannabe dictator. They can't beat time but can take the right to vote and disenfranchise the new voters that are coming our way due to demographic shift and generational change.

I wasn't really referring to hard core magats changing their minds or evolving as human beings, but there are many in the middle who have and will change their minds. They already know they are an effective minority, not whites as a whole, but whites who disagree with them and other minorities add up and that not even cheating and foxnews propaganda can help them recover from Trump. In 2020 Trump brought 10 million new voters out of the woodwork who never voted before, if he isn't on the ballot many won't vote again. We will see but there are indicators other than polling that show the democrats could do better than many think. It depends on who turns out, women and youth might make a big difference, as might Trump's troubles and the division he creates. The danger is there, but if you win, then future danger would be greatly reduced by things like HR-1, voting rights, new terrorism legislation and governing success. Add to that demographic and generational change over 4 years and the balance might be tipping.

 

[CANON_Grow]

It is sobering how little support from the base, and from Republicans in power, that man has lost.

Those of us who aren’t invested see a charlatan shaking apart under multifocal stresses. Loyalists see a man being torn apart by insidious political foes, like martyrs vs. lions in an amphitheater. It’s beyond repair except by the generational turnover you describe.

And if the lords of dark money are foiled after this round, in another sixty to eighty years they try again, unless society changes in basic and unforeseeable ways.

The maga movement is eerily similar to the movement that happened roughly a century ago. It won't take a generational change for many that are caught up in the moment to clearly see what is happening, just hope they see before votes are cast.

As his reign continued, Gifford used more hostile rhetoric in his rallies. He ordered Klansmen to boycott papers and businesses that offended him and even threatened to beat Klansmen that disobeyed his orders. Gifford sometimes excommunicated members that called out his hypocrisy, labeling them “Catholic hirelings.” Titus noticed that such rhetoric often excited the more unstable members, but for ordinary men like him, it was a huge turnoff.66 As Lem Dever noted in a 1925 news article, “soon all the good, law abiding members left, only thugs remained.”67

Titus knew Gifford did not want to lead a fraternal order; he wanted “to become political dictator of Oregon.”68 Gifford constantly double dealt, made false promises, lied, and disregarded both state and federal laws in order to further his own political gain. In his exposé, Titus accused Gifford of drinking with political figures. Gifford also ordered Klan members to infiltrate other fraternal organizations and work for the Klan from within. He raised money for the Oregon School Bill campaign that was never accounted for. In a private meeting among Klan leaders Gifford exclaimed, “To hell with the law! I am the law!” Given this crooked behavior, Klan members eventually came to understand that Gifford did not stand for anything except his own gain. As Titus proclaimed in the conclusion of his exposé, Gifford was “the ass in the lion’s skin.” Under his misguided leadership the Klan took advantage of good men’s patriotism and turned them into a “blind fanatic mob.”69

https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1126&context=vocesnovae

 

[DIY-HP-LED]

The maga movement is eerily similar to the movement that happened roughly a century ago. It won't take a generational change for many that are caught up in the moment to clearly see what is happening, just hope they see before votes are cast.

As his reign continued, Gifford used more hostile rhetoric in his rallies. He ordered Klansmen to boycott papers and businesses that offended him and even threatened to beat Klansmen that disobeyed his orders. Gifford sometimes excommunicated members that called out his hypocrisy, labeling them “Catholic hirelings.” Titus noticed that such rhetoric often excited the more unstable members, but for ordinary men like him, it was a huge turnoff.66 As Lem Dever noted in a 1925 news article, “soon all the good, law abiding members left, only thugs remained.”67

Titus knew Gifford did not want to lead a fraternal order; he wanted “to become political dictator of Oregon.”68 Gifford constantly double dealt, made false promises, lied, and disregarded both state and federal laws in order to further his own political gain. In his exposé, Titus accused Gifford of drinking with political figures. Gifford also ordered Klan members to infiltrate other fraternal organizations and work for the Klan from within. He raised money for the Oregon School Bill campaign that was never accounted for. In a private meeting among Klan leaders Gifford exclaimed, “To hell with the law! I am the law!” Given this crooked behavior, Klan members eventually came to understand that Gifford did not stand for anything except his own gain. As Titus proclaimed in the conclusion of his exposé, Gifford was “the ass in the lion’s skin.” Under his misguided leadership the Klan took advantage of good men’s patriotism and turned them into a “blind fanatic mob.”69

https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1126&context=vocesnovae

You can see that happening with Trump and maga the more radical they become the more they shrink and move away from the mainstream of society. The base tribal feelings are there though, but it is supposed to be the job of government and society to suppress such things, in America they didn't. They are doing so now and will continue to into the future, liberal democracies that function properly just evolve that way. However there are social and historical factors in America with black people and now in Europe with migrants threatening small cultures and languages, that causes a xenophobic a reaction in a segment of the population. People who migrate these days do so by jet often and can stay connected with the folks and culture back home by air and internet. They are not so eager to assimilate as they used to be and see value in their native cultures too, even the second and third generations can maintain strong cultural, linguistic and family ties over a distance these days.

 

[Fogdog]

You can see that happening with Trump and maga the more radical they become the more they shrink and move away from the mainstream of society. The base tribal feelings are there though, but it is supposed to be the job of government and society to suppress such things, in America they didn't. They are doing so now and will continue to into the future, liberal democracies that function properly just evolve that way. However there are social and historical factors in America with black people and now in Europe with migrants threatening small cultures and languages, that causes a xenophobic a reaction in a segment of the population. People who migrate these days do so by jet often and can stay connected with the folks and culture back home by air and internet. They are not so eager to assimilate as they used to be and see value in their native cultures too, even the second and third generations can maintain strong cultural, linguistic and family ties over a distance these days.

You don't get it. You still don't get it. You keep repeating something that is wrong and misleading. Trump supporters are not shrinking in number. They are also still in the mainstream of US society. According to all information that we have available to us, the illiberal anti-democracy Trumpist MAGA party, AKA Republicans, their voting numbers did not shrink in 2020 or 2022 or most likely in 2024. As a matter of fact, more people voted for Trump in 2020 than in 2016. Also too, the number of never Trump Republicans did not shrink or grow and only a few switched to vote for Biden. The only reason the pro-Democracy party, the Democrats, are holding their own or winning more elections than expected is that voter turnout is up, the new voters vote Democrat and Independents are voting Democrat in larger numbers than they did before 2016.

Their radicalism and radical rhetoric is not causing their numbers to go down. Maybe 2024 is the year it does but nobody can say their numbers are going down based upon the facts that are available at the moment.

 

[Sativied]

Extremists who support Trump are mostly old men.

I hope that's true (I've seen conflicting polls). Reminds me of what Oprah said in 2013 (something about old white people having to die for progress). I sort of had high hopes. It's just that the rise from the far right in Europe is surprisingly fueled by young people.

 

[Fogdog]

I hope that's true (I've seen conflicting polls). Reminds me of what Oprah said in 2013 (something about old white people having to die for progress). I sort of had high hopes. It's just that the rise from the far right in Europe is surprisingly fueled by young people.

The media are full of contradictory polling data right now and are desperate to say something that draws attention. It's not that they are wrong when they report a percentage increase in young and people of color who support Trump or Republicans, it's just that the numbers are insignificant. Also true that the polls contradict depending on the question asked and especially how the polls are conducted. The alarming headline that I've seen on this subject is something like "growing numbers of young people say they can't vote for Biden". It's probably true, too. But that in no way means they will vote for Trump. Their complaint with Democrats is that we are not pursuing policies that are far enough to the left. We'll see how many will hew to that oath when the election day comes around. At this time, I view poll numbers as statements of public sentiment and not anything that is predictive of results in November.

It's just that the news cycle is all about Trump and Republicans right now. They aren't doing anything to attract new voters, they are simply entrenching their base, which is not insignificant but, as I said is mostly old people and mostly white. They do not account for a majority in this country but they are probably the largest and most energized voting bloc in this country at the moment.

This article is an example of what you are referring to when you mention polls that claim young people are switching to Trump:

Trump leads Biden, builds support among young voters: poll

Former President Trump leads President Biden by 2 points in a hypothetical 2024 general election match-up and is improving his standing among young voters, according to a poll released Friday.&nbsp…

thehill.com

I won't argue that they are factually reporting what the poll said. It's nothing to be complacent about and I doubt Biden's campaign is ignoring it. And yet, just two months after that poll, comes this from the same outlet:

Young voters right now overwhelmingly prefer Biden: The Economist/YouGov poll

Young voters overwhelmingly say they would support President Biden over former President Trump in a hypothetical head-to-head match-up if the 2024 presidential election were held today, according t…

thehill.com

So, take the information for what it's worth, which is, not much. I'm going more by election polls, which are the only ones that matter and Republicans have lost lost ground or woefully underperformed in the last three national elections. The youth of this nation do not like Trump, according to exit polls from those elections. We are a fickle people but not that fickle.