Does hydroponics increase quality that much ?

Marija

New Member
I've been interested in setting up a hydropinic setup but don't know if it's actually worth the money/effort

I grow basically for my own use, I get about 80-100gs from each auto consitently with good weed but I was wondering, it the quality of the weed from hydroponics that much better ?
 

Absorber

Well-Known Member
I've been interested in setting up a hydropinic setup but don't know if it's actually worth the money/effort

I grow basically for my own use, I get about 80-100gs from each auto consitently with good weed but I was wondering, it the quality of the weed from hydroponics that much better ?
I believe the quality of the weed has the same potential either way you grow it .
I like hydro because i can cut down on overheads once set up by having no medium a resevoir that reticulates the nutrients instead of DTW and the growth is alot faster .
 

Marija

New Member
oh fair, honestly the only thing that's holding me back a bit is the price of the set up altho I Figured I can pretty much make a makeshift one pretty easily
 

Absorber

Well-Known Member
oh fair, honestly the only thing that's holding me back a bit is the price of the set up altho I Figured I can pretty much make a makeshift one pretty easily
They are easy to make if you are the tinkering type .
My setup is 100% custom made and designed
 

Wastei

Well-Known Member
The simplest and also one of the most stable approaches is Drain to waste in coco coir. I've gone from Coir -> DWC -> Aero -> Coir. There's pros and cons with every single method.

Aero is superior in terms of cutting down veg time but you loose a lot of safety with all the different components prone to failure. DWC performs well but is harder to get right, even more so with Aero with all measures like keeping right pressure, hang time, dead band and spray on time.

In DWC it's easy to run to high water levels and to much aeration to no real gain and people should avoid any organics other than bacillus amyloliquefaciens when running a water chiller. The safest approach at keeping the solution stable and clean is adding an oxidizer. I've used regular unscented bleach for decades in hydro. Check my signature to find the chlorine dilution calculator and recommendations.

I like coco coir since it's the least hassle and I can play around more with additives without worrying about nasties and pathogens. The most common issue in pure water cultures are fungal and bacteria infections since there's very little to no barrier to the base stem and root core that's most sensitive for incoluation.

Cheers!
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Hydro will get you more faster without debate. Quality however is in the hands/skills of the grower. I've had really good and really bad weed grown from all methods.
I agree with your comment about hydro. I haven't seen data on it but it holds that hydro allows nutrients to be delivered to the roots the most, allows unimpeded root growth, and it the fastest mechanism to deliver a changed fertilizer mix to the plant.

In terms of quality, I'd argue that it's the grow environment that drives quality, all other things being equal. An optimal environment drastically reduces the need for grower intervention. An expert grower will work to create an optimal environment and, as the grow progresses, will be able to anticipate issues and, if they arise, remedy them.

That skill impacts two definitions of quality.

One is the ratio of flower to above ground mass. A grower who maintains the plants in an optimal manner will tend to have a very high ratio.

The other, more common, perspective on quality is the level of secondary metabolites. For that metric, my sense is that's a function of the genetics and the environment. I don't get any indication that a grower has much impact on the level of cannabanoids other than ensuring that the grow environment is optimal.

The big question is "what is an optimal environment?" As I see it, the three main issues are not providing maximal amounts of light, allowing VPD to go way out of range, and rampant defoliation. I believe the grow medium has an impact on quantity but I believe that it does not have an impact on either definition of quality.
 

futurebanjo

Well-Known Member
I'd say the benefits are speed of growing mostly, but also less mess to clean up at the and of a grow.

Quality and quantity of final product is more complex, lights, nutes, air quality all play a part in that, there a lot of variables and hydro comes with it's own unique challenges.

A good thing is when it's dialled in, it's semi autonomous, and you get a feel for it, so there's a personal time/effort saving there aswell once you get it right.

Expensive to get set up, compared to soil but they are one time purchases for the most part, and if you don't fuck it up completley, it should pay for itself easily after the first crop, maybe second at a push, if you compare it to buying weeed from a deealer or a dispensary.
 

futurebanjo

Well-Known Member
I did a side by side this year. Two clones in garden soil and two clones in 7 gallons of peat soilless. The plants in the peat mix definitely grew heartier and yielded more. Overall, the quality of the buds are the same, or so close I can't tell a difference.
This has been my experience too, I had denser buds when using soil and HPS, now I'm on hydro and LED so I'm not exactly sure where i'm going wrong, but then I never really grow the same strain twice, so comparisons are very difficult for me!
 

7CardBud

Well-Known Member
I did my side by side outdoors. The garden plants got some Espoma in the hole and then left to do their thing. The container plants got daily fertigation.

I had the same issue when I switched to LED. I used to run my HID room at 70, I needed to run the LED room at 85 to get good growth.
I found out since LED has very little IR, you need to run higher ambient temperatures.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
I did my side by side outdoors. The garden plants got some Espoma in the hole and then left to do their thing. The container plants got daily fertigation.

I had the same issue when I switched to LED. I used to run my HID room at 70, I needed to run the LED room at 85 to get good growth.
I found out since LED has very little IR, you need to run higher ambient temperatures.
Ambient temp makes a huge difference in growing cannabis.

This graph is from the paper "Photosynthetic response of Cannabis sativa L. to variations in photosynthetic photon flux densities, temperature and CO2 conditions", lead author is Suman Chandra.

Per its title, the main focus was on the impact of CO2 on a grow but it's clear that even in ambient CO@ (425 now - yeah!) there's a huge difference in net photosynthesis between 68° (20° C), 77° (25*C), and 86 (30°C).

This is net photosynthesis, granted, not yield. When net photosynthesis is compared to yield, the amazing thing about cannabis is that the yield curve rolls off much more slowly.

Chandra - Cannabis photosynthesis vs PPFD and Temp.png
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
This is net photosynthesis, granted, not yield. When net photosynthesis is compared to yield, the amazing thing about cannabis is that the yield curve rolls off much more slowly.
Can you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure I follow.
 

Has

Active Member
I have also tried different growing methods.
Many points have already been commented on here.
It can be added that with small growing volumes this is not entirely justified, since the cost of equipment and labor costs are not proportional to the number of plants.
Another disadvantage is that the pH of the solution constantly shifts from the optimal values. Therefore, even a well-balanced solution for nutrients can lead to various blockages and deficiencies.
The solution to the problem can be either an expensive automatic pH adjustment of the solution, or a very large tank capacity.
Otherwise, you will have to monitor and adjust the solution quite often.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Can you explain this a bit more? I'm not sure I follow.
Net photosynthesis is the amount of glucose generated by a leaf during the process of photosynthesis minus the glucose used by the leaf during the process of photosynthesis.

The Chandra paper was a big deal for a variety of reasons and one of the impacts of the paper is the data presented in the paper/displayed in the chart indicate that there's a rapid decrease in the value of increasing light levels on a cannabis grow. Put another way, the rapid falloff in net P as light levels increase was the law of diminishing returns showing that there was rapidly decreasing benefit in growing cannabis at high light levels.

Reading through the details of the Chandra paper revealed that the measurements of photosynthetic output were taken by putting leaves in a device about the size of a shoe box and measuring the output. That struck me as odd - was it valid to extrapolate the out of of glucose from a few leaves to the yield of a cannabis plant?

My response was "I'm not harvesting net photosynthesis" and I looked around for research that dealt with yield rather than net P from a few leaves in a box.

What was playing in the back of my mind was that emphasis that Bugbee was putting on growing cannabis under high light levels. Bugbee never put forward yield data but everything he talked about was growing at four digit levels (albeit that was in CO2). And I came across the description somewhere (to this day, I can't cite the source) that the light saturation point for cannabis is "800 to 10000µmols, depending on the strain.".

It wasn't until I found "Frontiers in Plant Science - Yield, Potency, and Photosynthesis in Increasing Light Levels" (attached) that, pardon the pun, the light went on. The authors, one of whom is Zheng who is a former Bugbee student IIRC, tackles the issue head on. The key phrase is "plasticity". Search the PDF for that word and that part of the text (one of the many highlights) states that net P of a few leaves cannot be taken as a proxy because cannabis has tremendous "plasticity" when it comes to yield and increasing light levels.

A step aside - essentially all light recommendations "on the internet" appear to rest on the results of the light levels in the Chandra paper. No doubt many of them have never heard of the Chandra paper but the light levels that are recommended are, my word, "modest". The lights at Migro appear to be specifically designed to work at those levels. If you look at the Migro lights, the drivers are lower powered than many of the competing products and if you read the Migro blog, you'll see that Shane stays well away from 1kµmol.

Another source that deserves mention is the data presented in the charts at growlightmeter.com. When I emailed the programmer a few years ago, asking for sources for their recommended light levels, I was told to check for footnotes on the bottom of the page where the data were presented. At the time, there were none and I haven't bothered to check back since for the reason that the research data that's been published is overwhelmingly different than what growlightmeter.com presents on their site.

Back on the research track - the other attached papers support the findings in the Frontiers paper. Their approaches are different but, overall, they buttress the assertion that cannabis yield tends to increase a light levels increase, as long as light is the limiting factor.

The most recent addition to the canon is the work done by Mitch Westmorelan, who is (was?) a PhD candidate under Bugbee. A year ago, he released a pair of videos in which he discusses some of the research that he conducted for his thesis. He makes it quite clear that his research indicates that cannabis yield increases as light levels increase.

This video is one of the two longer ones but he's done shorter, interview-length videos with Shane (Migro) on different topics. The topics are similar but Westmoreland adds little tidbits here and there.



Somewhat of a long response, eh?

The shorter version:

The table below is from the cited paper. If you plot the curve, you'll see that the law of diminishing returns is quite evident but the curve rolls off at a much slower rate than the curve of net P in the Chandra paper.

1731809906012.png

Clearly, I'm an enthusiastic supporter of growing using high light and I do follow that practice with my grows. I run my grows as close as I can get to 1kµmol on average, or higher, and have no complaints about the results.

Growers have commented that high light tends to reduce the quality of the crop but the research doesn't support that. My belief is that Westmoreland addresses the issue, based on his research in 2021 and subsequent years, which he discusses in the videos I've cited.

The issue with reduced quality that some growers (including me) experience when cannabis is grown under high light is not due to high light levels but is a function of not keeping the temperature of the flower tops to <=78°. The graphic below is from his recent video and it substantiates the results that he reported in his 2021 video.

1731810271081.png

Grow lighting for cannabis is a very deep topic but the Westmoreland videos, at only 50± minutes in length, are an excellent summary of the body of research that I've been able to dig up.
 

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ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Net photosynthesis is the amount of glucose generated by a leaf during the process of photosynthesis minus the glucose used by the leaf during the process of photosynthesis.

The Chandra paper was a big deal for a variety of reasons and one of the impacts of the paper is the data presented in the paper/displayed in the chart indicate that there's a rapid decrease in the value of increasing light levels on a cannabis grow. Put another way, the rapid falloff in net P as light levels increase was the law of diminishing returns showing that there was rapidly decreasing benefit in growing cannabis at high light levels.

Reading through the details of the Chandra paper revealed that the measurements of photosynthetic output were taken by putting leaves in a device about the size of a shoe box and measuring the output. That struck me as odd - was it valid to extrapolate the out of of glucose from a few leaves to the yield of a cannabis plant?

My response was "I'm not harvesting net photosynthesis" and I looked around for research that dealt with yield rather than net P from a few leaves in a box.

What was playing in the back of my mind was that emphasis that Bugbee was putting on growing cannabis under high light levels. Bugbee never put forward yield data but everything he talked about was growing at four digit levels (albeit that was in CO2). And I came across the description somewhere (to this day, I can't cite the source) that the light saturation point for cannabis is "800 to 10000µmols, depending on the strain.".

It wasn't until I found "Frontiers in Plant Science - Yield, Potency, and Photosynthesis in Increasing Light Levels" (attached) that, pardon the pun, the light went on. The authors, one of whom is Zheng who is a former Bugbee student IIRC, tackles the issue head on. The key phrase is "plasticity". Search the PDF for that word and that part of the text (one of the many highlights) states that net P of a few leaves cannot be taken as a proxy because cannabis has tremendous "plasticity" when it comes to yield and increasing light levels.

A step aside - essentially all light recommendations "on the internet" appear to rest on the results of the light levels in the Chandra paper. No doubt many of them have never heard of the Chandra paper but the light levels that are recommended are, my word, "modest". The lights at Migro appear to be specifically designed to work at those levels. If you look at the Migro lights, the drivers are lower powered than many of the competing products and if you read the Migro blog, you'll see that Shane stays well away from 1kµmol.

Another source that deserves mention is the data presented in the charts at growlightmeter.com. When I emailed the programmer a few years ago, asking for sources for their recommended light levels, I was told to check for footnotes on the bottom of the page where the data were presented. At the time, there were none and I haven't bothered to check back since for the reason that the research data that's been published is overwhelmingly different than what growlightmeter.com presents on their site.

Back on the research track - the other attached papers support the findings in the Frontiers paper. Their approaches are different but, overall, they buttress the assertion that cannabis yield tends to increase a light levels increase, as long as light is the limiting factor.

The most recent addition to the canon is the work done by Mitch Westmorelan, who is (was?) a PhD candidate under Bugbee. A year ago, he released a pair of videos in which he discusses some of the research that he conducted for his thesis. He makes it quite clear that his research indicates that cannabis yield increases as light levels increase.

This video is one of the two longer ones but he's done shorter, interview-length videos with Shane (Migro) on different topics. The topics are similar but Westmoreland adds little tidbits here and there.



Somewhat of a long response, eh?

The shorter version:

The table below is from the cited paper. If you plot the curve, you'll see that the law of diminishing returns is quite evident but the curve rolls off at a much slower rate than the curve of net P in the Chandra paper.

View attachment 5439959

Clearly, I'm an enthusiastic supporter of growing using high light and I do follow that practice with my grows. I run my grows as close as I can get to 1kµmol on average, or higher, and have no complaints about the results.

Growers have commented that high light tends to reduce the quality of the crop but the research doesn't support that. My belief is that Westmoreland addresses the issue, based on his research in 2021 and subsequent years, which he discusses in the videos I've cited.

The issue with reduced quality that some growers (including me) experience when cannabis is grown under high light is not due to high light levels but is a function of not keeping the temperature of the flower tops to <=78°. The graphic below is from his recent video and it substantiates the results that he reported in his 2021 video.

View attachment 5439960

Grow lighting for cannabis is a very deep topic but the Westmoreland videos, at only 50± minutes in length, are an excellent summary of the body of research that I've been able to dig up.
Looks like I've got some homework! This is the kind of homework I like to do, however.

I've run more light than most, at least when I got into LED lights. Instead of matching light levels when I switched from CMH lamps on magnetic ballasts, I matched wattage. Obviously that was a lot more light, perhaps approaching double. I'll concede that my light levels under HID weren't optimal but I wondered if I'd gone too far until I pulled my first harvest. Both yield and quality increased and by very noticeable amounts.
 
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