stick a fork in em..their done.

[******]

Yeah, all this talk about the Auto Manufacturers being "middle class". They are hardly middle class. They are more than likely in the top 80% of the nation by household income. Or they were.

Though, in that article it mentions that GM won the concession to able to hire workers at lower rates IN 2010...

TOO LITTLE, TOO LATE, some one should congratulate the unions on shooting themselves in the foot.

As far as them being operated like big business, no.

Most big businesses actually understand that you ain't nothing, if you can't pay your bills.

And GM, is no longer able to do that.

And the Unions were never able to do that, which is why they have always been attached like a vampire draining GM.

Businesses actually produce things...

Unions, unions are more like government, all they produce are RED TAPE and TAXES (Involuntary Expenses),

that $73 stuff was discredited 2wks ago the auther is involved in fraud****** this blame labor but lets not talk about the salaries of the highest paid employees forien or domestic and the bosses once again get to define debate

 

[max420thc]

i dont have a problem with a CEO making 100 mill a year..i dont care..if he is good at what he does and his company is making money..there are CEO's running companys into the ground and drawing huge salarys pensions and bonus's from those companys.the stock holders and board of directors determins that..so it is their bussiness..if they run their company's into the ground..not mine..but when your stupid ass;s run your companys into bankruptcy and you expect the tax payer to pick up the tab cause you lost money? fuck you mr CEO...you take the rist.you gamble..you win,,or you lose on your own merit ,,if the share holders..and boardsof these companys are so stupid they run their company into bankruptcy..tough shit..if the union runs a company they work for into bankruptcy..seems like its the unions and companys fault it happened..then again..tough shit.go find a new job..the problem is..isnt not happening like its supposed to.....instead of tough shit...they are stealing money from US..the tax payer and paying incompetent idiots..they are taking money and resources from the competent and giving them to the incompetent.....our government is subsidizing failure..you can expect outragous costs from this shit..not just now..but in the near future..they are penalizing winners in this country for being winners..and rewarding losers...any time this ignorance has ever been tried it has been a complete and misreble failure..COMPLETE...the people who run our government ..are complete and utter morons...COMPLETE....they couldnt run a lemonaide stand..little lone a trillion dollar enterprise like the US government..if i sit down..and started interviewing politicians for a job position as a manager at a company not many of them would make it past the interview ..almost all the solutions to the problems we face are already available..even to the politicians..the solutions were left for us by the founding fathers of this country in the constitution and many of the founders documents..the founders were mostly farmers and small bussinessmen..they were very plain in their meaning of the constitution ...some fucking commie always like to try and tell us what the founders ment when they wrote the documents...its simple what they meant..just read them....it is in very plain english...the solutions are simple..but the solutions would cost these politicians and bankers the power they have worked so hard to steal over the years..dont expect them to give it back freely...thugs in power NEVER GIVE IT BACK UP WILLINGLY..THEY MUST BE FORCED TO GIVE IT UP......

 

[ViRedd]

Until you have stepped over the broken bodies and crippled souls of out of work vinyl record makers sleeping in homeless soup lines, you don't know how cruel a dying industry can be.

Hey, I'm doing my part to keep the vinyl record market booming. My motto is: "Vinyl and vacuum tubes rule!"

And by the way, who was the guy that screwed up that Shaded Dog? I say he needs to be shot ... or at the very least, forced to drink dirty bong water!

Vi

 

[panhead]

How exactly can jobs and benefits be supported without a profit being made? The answer certainly isn't a taxpayer bailout. For every job that is saved with taxpayer funds, someone else in the private sector loses out. Government does not create jobs. At best, its a wash.

Vi

Im 100% on the side of the automakers on this one but what you say is true & has much merit.

Oh btw hello vi.

Anyhow i have yet to see a proposal from the automakers or congress thats acceptable, or that will work long term,whats needed is an immediate & complete restructuring of the corporation starting at the top.

The problem we all face is that if gm goes belly up were all fucked for decades & will force a complete restructure of the entire ecomomy of the entire nation,this one wont just go away in a year or two either.

 

[panhead]

Thats what happens when you make shitty, overpriced, gas guzzling cars for so long.

I have to check that comment & question what basis you make that comment on,or what experience in American made vs Japaneese made that you've personally had, with new vehicles of both manufacturers.

I personally think that alot of USA auto bashing is word of mouth,much like the fox farms stuff,it spreads like a cancer,not that you dont have the direct comparison experience onlt that your comment would be fair if you posted any negative experience.

Anyhow my family is the other side of the coin, i own & drive 5 vehicles,all usa made,along with 4 usa made motorcycles,all my cars/trucks were made right here in the usa,its a pet peeve of mine to know where my cars are assembled as detroit needs help & i live here so why not.

My daily driver is a gmc 3/4 ton work truck,this truck gets beat down daily & runs a 150 mile round trip commute every day 6 days a week at 80 mph fully loaded with tools & equipment,the odometer went out in the truck over a year ago & is stuck at some shit like 379,000 miles,i have to guess the mileage but i guess its around 450,000 at this point,same engine,same tranny,same transfer case,only minor repairs & a shit load of tires.

This gmc truck replaced another gmc truck i retired & sold to a helper who worked for me so he could have a reliable truck,i retired the truck at around 350,000 hard miles with the same motor & trans as well,this was over 5 years ago & the truck is still on the road the last i knew which was last year.

My wife has a ford explorer for her daily driver,this suv has over 200,000 miles on it with factory everything,all hard ass in city stop & go miles too,this suv has had only minor repairs & very little of that,she also drives a ford expedition suv that so far has given her zero trouble but it is a low mileage suv still.

I also have a 1995 mustang 5.0 that i rarely drive,it has 139,000 miles on it & it runs like wildfire,since i bought it new the one & only part that has been replaced was the factory alternator,the alternator wasnt even bad but i had a high end car stereo installed & the installer upgraded the alternator to an ambulance alternator to power the amplifiers in the trunk,this car still has the factory plugs & wires in it too,i keep meaning to change them but it still runs killer so ive put it off.

The last vehicle is a new model chevy silverado,low miles but an excellent truck that gives me no reason to complain.

We have 4 harley davidsons as well with the oldest being from the 1950's & one from the 1970's,all run perfect & are capable of a 1,000 ,mile round trip with only an oil change.

Sorry to be so long winded but too many people bash us made cars without qualifying their remarks,i like to put out the excellent experiences ive had to counter the bashing.

 

[misshestermoffitt]

I remember 10 years ago telling someone "buy American made, the job you save may be your own", now it's coming true.

 

[hom36rown]

When I went to go buy my last car, I asked my mechanic what I should get...and he said just dont get anything american. Ive had a chevy silverado need a comletely new tranny after 63000...Ive also had a 30 year old nissan that made it to 280,000 before I sold it because it stopped going in reverse.

 

[Picasso345]

Sorry to be so long winded but too many people bash us made cars without qualifying their remarks,i like to put out the excellent experiences ive had to counter the bashing.

I agree with you 100%. I have a Pontiac with 310,000 and it runs like a top.

BUT, I don't think it has anything to do with the bailout. Running a business involves more than just making a good product, you also have to sell it and part of selling is public perception. I think you would have to agree that Detroit has failed miserably in this respect. I mean failed horribly, so horribly that heads should roll. I am not willing to give these incompetent management teams any money. I also don't think the US Government should get into automobile manufacturing business as part owner; therefore I think Detroit should be left to survive or not survive all on their own. It may be painful, but it is how capitalism works.

 

[medicineman]

SO it's save the suits and fuck the blue collar dudes, eh? I believe the downfall of the big three will reverberate accross the country like a nuclear blast. There will be massive layoffs in thousands of small businesses that support the automakers. Bankruptcies on every corner, people living in the streets. I realize, if you're not affected personally, it may be, so fuck-em, but eventuelly it will affect everyone. Everyone that now owns a Big three product will lose their warranties, no parts or dealerships will be there to fix their cars/trucks. Restructuring is fine as long as they keep those jobs in some kind of shape. Taking a cut in pay as opposed to losing your job is a no-brainer. WE, My union,.took a 2.00 an hr pay when the company changed hands, it was either that or be locked out, guess what, we took the cut, got it back in 2 years.

 

[panhead]

I agree with you 100%. I have a Pontiac with 310,000 and it runs like a top.

BUT, I don't think it has anything to do with the bailout. Running a business involves more than just making a good product, you also have to sell it and part of selling is public perception. I think you would have to agree that Detroit has failed miserably in this respect. I mean failed horribly, so horribly that heads should roll. I am not willing to give these incompetent management teams any money. I also don't think the US Government should get into automobile manufacturing business as part owner; therefore I think Detroit should be left to survive or not survive all on their own. It may be painful, but it is how capitalism works.

I agree that not one red cent should be given to any of the big 3 until they can present a better bussiness model that will at the very least help them survive another year,by then they would have ample time to consolidate their efforts twords a 100% restructuring from the top down,i firmly believe that the majority of gm's problems stem from bad management thats overpaid & takes full advantage of their position,i believe that the uaw membership also plays a role here but it is rather small in the big picture.

What i dont agree is that they should survive on their own,it would be a death blow to the economy that is allready headed in a downward spiral,i firmly believe that if allowed to go under,even if its only general motors we will see finincal devastation the likes this country has not seen since the great depression,entire states will be out of work,unemployement will hit an alltime high as well as creating an entire new class of lifelong welfare families.

When 250,000 people lose their job in one state alone the rest of the country will pay for them for the rest of their lives with no chance of them ever finding another job,their collapse will also detract multiple hundreds of thousands of jobs from the us job base forever,once gone they will never return.

Not bailing out the big 3 is the 1st major step to the united states becomming a 3rd world country with a powerfull military.

 

[panhead]

I remember 10 years ago telling someone "buy American made, the job you save may be your own", now it's coming true.

Its amazing to me how many people cant understand that,its a wallmart america now days thats for sure,where we fuk our neighbors over all over a savings of 10%.

We think the lending institutions are fuked right now,just wait until a half a million more united auto workers loose their homes to foreclosure,these people will never find jobs that will pay a mortgage,ther nearsightedness only hits people when it hits thier own savings.

 

[panhead]

When I went to go buy my last car, I asked my mechanic what I should get...and he said just dont get anything american. Ive had a chevy silverado need a comletely new tranny after 63000...Ive also had a 30 year old nissan that made it to 280,000 before I sold it because it stopped going in reverse.

A question for everybody in this thread that has a home theater,or a stereo in their home.

Does anybody aside from myself have an american made home theater system or stereo system in their homes ?

I hear this "quality" reference all the time but its only used to justify buying japaneese,by people who bought japaneese everything,comparing japanese stereo & home theater equipment against american made stereo equipment is like comparing a rotten apple to a steak.

We make the best stereo & home theater equipment in the world,bar none & most americans dont even know that american companies even manufacturer stereo & home theater equipment,they buy what other people tell them is good,they buy what their home theaater installer tells them is good,even though its disposable throw away equipment with a built in lifespan & garnered a reputation based on hearsay, not fact.

 

[ViRedd]

"We make the best stereo & home theater equipment in the world,bar none & most americans dont even know that american companies even manufacturer stereo & home theater equipment..."

I use all Audio Research Reference vacuum tube gear ... made in Minnesota. My speakers are American made too.

http://www.audioresearch.com/

The sound causes jaws to hit the floor and socks to be knocked off. The drawback is ... I could buy a new Mercedes for what I have in my audio system ... but what the Hell, I'd rather have the audio system and drive a junker.

Vi

 

[medicineman]

"We make the best stereo & home theater equipment in the world,bar none & most americans dont even know that american companies even manufacturer stereo & home theater equipment..."

I use all Audio Research Reference vacuum tube gear ... made in Minnesota. My speakers are American made too.

http://www.audioresearch.com/

The sound causes jaws to hit the floor and socks to be knocked off. The drawback is ... I could buy a new Mercedes for what I have in my audio system ... but what the Hell, I'd rather have the audio system and drive a junker.

Vi

You should try a little rock music to go along with that Jazz. I'd like to hear some led zepplin on your stereo. I've pretty much quit listening to music except in my car. My stereo is a 25 year old pioneer 250 watt system, it's loud enough, but I realize the sound reproduction isn't up to current standards, beatles still sound good though. I've listend to some high end stereos before, awesome, but my budget and circumstance doesn't fit that need.

 

[PurfectStorm]

American Car companies in general are so fat and entrenched in their ways that I've seen this coming for the last decade. I love some American car designs, but their workmanship is just plain bullshit.

Just about the only thing America does right in cars is the V8, and sadly those days will soon be over. They have resisted any change in the industry for as long as the industry has existed. All I gotta say is great management boys. I look forward to seeing the SUV dinosaurs in my kids museums.

I am very glad that the American auto industry is in dire straits. Be prepared to see Japan and Silicon Valley take over the up and coming electric car industry and fill in where lazy Detroit has been sitting on its haunches for the last 20 years.

No pity for the unions, no pity for the companies. Ford is starting to get on the right track, but I still doubt their ability to pull through in the long run as well.

Good riddance bad rubbish.

out.
PurfectStorm

 

[medicineman]

about the only thing America does right in cars is the V8,
Not so fast, there are a few good turboed V-6s, the Buick Grand Nationals. Some of those modified puppies are running in the 9s. The new V-8 packages with the superchargers are pretty awesone, how about a 600+ HP corvette. Outside of trucks, and a few specialty vehicles, corvette, mustang GT, dodge charger, etc, everything the big three has built has been crap for the last 20 years. Time to re-tool and make some plug in cars, some real water cars, I'm pretty sure they have the technology. Can you say direct injection liquid hydrogen, yahooo, that puppy ought to fly.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

We're all to blame for this mess with the automakers. Somebody bought all those SUVs. Somebody elected lawmakers who refused to require higher vehicle mileage requirements industry-wide.

The U.S. passed peak oil production in 1970. Three years later the Arab world used that new found leverage and declared economic war on the U.S. with the OPEC oil embargo in retaliation for our support of Israel. We did nothing but complain when gas went to 45 cents a gallon.

The U.S. auto industry saw this coming a long time ago, but chose to do nothing. The adversarial atmosphere between industry and the unions ignored the looming threat. I include UAW intransigence here because any required changes resulting from innovation would only result in demands for more concessions from the industry. The spirit of cooperation we are suddenly seeing from the Unions is a new phenomenon.

Meanwhile the importers made inroads with consumers who valued fuel economy. Remember the first Hondas? With tires the size of dinner plates? How we laughed at those tiny cars with the funny names like Datsun and Toyota.

We stopped laughing after the Islamic Revolution in Iran resulted in the second oil crisis. Remember odd and even days? Gas hit a dollar a gallon and everybody shat themselves.

But it did not take us long before we were in the market for Ford Explorers, Chevy Blazers, and Jeep Grand Cherokees. All the while U.S. automakers were losing significant market share to foreign imports. Even the lowly Yugo had it's moment in the sun.

Only bankruptcy will save the auto industry. Any bailout will serve to do nothing but prolong the inevitable.

 

[medicineman]

Bankruptcy= 3,000,000 lost jobs.

 

[panhead]

"We make the best stereo & home theater equipment in the world,bar none & most americans dont even know that american companies even manufacturer stereo & home theater equipment..."

I use all Audio Research Reference vacuum tube gear ... made in Minnesota. My speakers are American made too.

http://www.audioresearch.com/

The sound causes jaws to hit the floor and socks to be knocked off. The drawback is ... I could buy a new Mercedes for what I have in my audio system ... but what the Hell, I'd rather have the audio system and drive a junker.

Vi

I knew you ran high end gear as we've talked before but i didnt think it fair to name you in the thread,i constantly hear people talking about they want the best quality yet they no nothing of electronics,then throw their money at best buy junk thinking their geting the best.

Quality is percieved more than based on fact with us auto makers.


AS im sure you remember i run Mcintosh & Cary gear,all made in usa.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Bankruptcy= 3,000,000 lost jobs.

Bankruptcy Does Not Mean Death: The auto nationalization cheerleaders keep claiming bankruptcy proceedings for the Big Three automakers would cause a loss of 3.3 million jobs. This is a completely fictional number that assumes all three automakers would go bankrupt simultaneously and that all three companies would then immediately cease all operations entirely. Both assumptions are completely false. Ford has said repeatedly that it is in better financial shape and does not need taxpayer money. Furthermore, under Chapter 11 any firm that did declare bankruptcy would still be able to operate under the protection of a bankruptcy court. Even if GM filed for Chapter 7 liquidation, their assets would not simply cease to exist. More likely, entire plants and brands would be sold to other competitors who would then continue to operate them. Either way, the industry’s fear-mongering scenario of a 100% contraction of the auto industry would never happen.

Morning Bell: Bankruptcy Is Best Way to Save Auto Industry