the idea of free market capitalism is a joke

[Johnnyorganic]

what's this about?

It's about a revolution where the producers and achievers in the world finally got sick of being called greedy, of being punished for their success, so they quit. As they dropped off one by one, the looters and moochers continued making it harder for the survivors to justify sticking around. Eventually they quit, too, and society collapses around the heads of the high-minded altruists.

This book changed my life. Once you read this book, your perception of the world is altered. I've read it twice before and I am reading it once again. It always seems to give me the encouragement I need when I need it most.

Yeah, it's a tad dated. Ayn Rand can be a little preachy and long winded, but reading it again in the wake of all that is currently happening is amazing.

Calling Atlas Shrugged, a book which has sold 6,250,000 copies, irrelevant is naive. I read it about once every ten years. I have never purchased it new. I did not ever have to do so because it has not gone out of print. Each time, I acquired a used paperback copy and then gave it away after reading it. My current copy was found in a used bookstore for peanuts. I'm sure I'll pass this copy along, too.

Most remarkable about a novel in print for 50 years is the increasingly strong trend in sales over recent years. Paperback sales by New American Library to the book trade averaged 77,600 copies a year in the 1980s, 95,200 copies a year in the 1990s, and in the current decade have averaged 134,600 a year. After 50 years, annual sales are reaching all-time highs. Penguin Group (USA) currently publishes four editions: hardcover, two trade paperback editions, and one mass-market edition.

http://atlasshrugged.com/book/history.html

I dare say that anyone who dismisses this book out of hand has never bothered to read it.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Who is John Galt?

Fransico d'Anconia said it best in Part Two, Chapter V: Account Overdrawn.

John Galt is Prometheus who changed his mind. After centuries of being torn by vultures in payment for having brought to men the fire of the gods, he broke his chains and withdrew his fire - until the day when men withdraw their vultures.

 

[medicineman]

As far as claims of those ideas being dead... Don't make me laugh, these ideas are as old as this country, which remarkably enough is the country with the oldest government in the world...
Then that makes it ripe for revision. Capitalism is not the be-all, end-all form of government, Just like those that came before, it must go the way of the dinosaurs, feudalism, communism, fascism, (Our real current form) have all given way to new structures, Hopefully we'll progress into something better, Progressives, get it?

 

[ViRedd]

"Progressives, get it?"

Progressing to where, exactly, Med?

Your politics and view of government's relationship to capitalism is antiquated to say the least.

Your brand of "progressivism" will lead us down the road into the hell of serfdom. You have been duped by socialist/communist propaganda and that's all you espouse here in this forum.

Honestly, for you to denigrate Atlas Shrugged shows just how misinformed/uninformed you really are.

What a stupid, ham-fisted oaf!

Vi

 

[hom36rown]

if anyone wants to read it, you can download it here http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3958095/Ayn_Rand_-_Atlas_Shrugged

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I recently gave the 50th Anniversary hardback editon to my youngest Grandson for his 17th birthday.

Vi

My god redd, making you grandson a fascist, what a gift, Kudos.

Are you suggesting Atlas Shrugged is pro-fascist? If so, exactly how did you come to this conclusion?

Perhaps it is worthy of one of your illustrious treatises.

 

[medicineman]

Are you suggesting Atlas Shrugged is pro-fascist? If so, exactly how did you come to this conclusion?

Perhaps it is worthy of one of your illustrious treatises.

No Johnny, I haven't read it in so many years that I couldn't tell you what is in it, (Nor do I care to) but I base that tenet on the views of those that parade the virtues of that book around here on the site. Most are anarcho-fascists, or no government is best government, unless it benefits you directly types. They all think that if "they" would dissapear, the rest of us would be up shit creek. I say good riddance to them, as in see ya wouldn't wanna be ya. We all know (Or should) that Fascism is a form of government where the rich control everything, uhhhh, I believe that is the current situation. I guess those that bitch so much on this site about government are just not rich enough to be included in the executive capacity, wannabees I calls em. ROFLOL.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

No Johnny, I haven't read it in so many years that I couldn't tell you what is in it, (Nor do I care to) but I base that tenet on the views of those that parade the virtues of that book around here on the site.

Just checking. I could not determine if you were suggesting Atlas Shrugged is pro-fascist, or if you were merely mislabeling Vi.

Most are anarcho-fascists, or no government is best government, unless it benefits you directly types. They all think that if "they" would dissapear, the rest of us would be up shit creek. I say good riddance to them, as in see ya wouldn't wanna be ya.

As a proponent of the book, it is safe to assume you include me in the above stated remarks. For clarification, I am in favor of a Federal government operating strictly within the limits of the U.S. Constitution. Each state is free to govern as it sees fit as long as the Constitution is not violated. Federalism.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/federalism/

We all know (Or should) that Fascism is a form of government where the rich control everything, uhhhh, I believe that is the current situation.

We don't all know that. You are describing an oligarchy. Fascism is quite different, although both systems can co-exist quite easily. While I will agree America is a fascist nation (Thank you, FDR!), I strongly disagree with your definition of fascism.

Here is a link about American Fascism for you to ignore:
http://rationalrevolution0.tripod.com/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm

I guess those that bitch so much on this site about government are just not rich enough to be included in the executive capacity, wannabees I calls em. ROFLOL.

I guess I'm a wannabe, then. So be it. Since I shrugged, I am very content living within my means. I'm not rich, but I believe in limited government.

Since you deal in absolutes on the topic of rich versus poor, how do you square the notion of rich Progressives?

 

[medicineman]

I guess I'm a wannabe, then. So be it. Since I shrugged, I am very content living within my means. I'm not rich, but I believe in limited government.

Since you deal in absolutes on the topic of rich versus poor, how do you square the notion of rich Progressives?

Rich progressives, Hmmmm............ I don't know any personally, but if there are such animals, they should be more involved in making government work for all the people, just not the rich. That's where the fascist thingy comes in, oligarchy if you will, they give a token amount to some high fallutin charity (High visibility) and go on with their luxurious life style. I suppose I can't really blame them. With so much war and terror going on, it would be nice to have your own little island. What money buys is freedom, the more you have, the more you have. I suppose this is what makes most people work so hard and cheat and steal for it. It's the love of money, or more likely what it can buy. I never had enough to worry about, enough to get by. Never missed any meals or let my kids miss any. Kept a roof over our heads and sent the one that wanted to go to college. Would have sent the others but they didn't want any more school. Life is good. Would I like to have a few million, sure, who wouldn't. I just never saw a way to get there. I was too busy living life.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

George Soros
Warren Buffet
Bill Gates
Steve Jobs
The Kennedys
Bill Clinton
The entire Hollywood/Entertainment gaggle of Progressives including:
Steven Spielberg
Barbara Streisand
George Clooney
Sean Penn
Rosie O'Donnell
David Letterman

Shall I go on, or do you still not know of any rich Progressives?

Please note that I asked what you thought of rich Progressives. I did not ask if you knew any personally.

 

[We Love 1]

I believe money should be brought into circulation through public works. This is ideal because ALL the bare necessities of every human would be covered, i.e. free health care and education!

Once We educate and give proper jobs to the poor people, life will get better for everyone. Everyone will prosper.

People need to be applied to a career for self satisfaction.

There is plenty of room underground for well insulated homes. We are going to build underground cities and the poor people will always have a place to stay. But they will not be "poor" because anyone that has a brain will be educated to His fullest wanted potential.

There will be an abundance of jobs because We are going to work on building paradise! But, after paradise is set up, there is going to be so much abundance of life that We wont really have to work much. There will be a lot more relaxing time.

There are going to be fruit trees seeminlgy everywhere so the poor people will be feed too. We are going to replace the trees that don't yeild fruit with ones that do yeild good fruit. All this extra food will increase the wild animals too, and We will be able to harvest (hunt) them because there will be so many fat animals.

Though, times are going to get worse before they get better.

Check out My signature if You want to see what the future holds.

 

[misshestermoffitt]

Where are all these animals going to be living? Have you not noticed that humans have way overpopulated the earth?

 

[medicineman]

George Soros
Warren Buffet
Bill Gates
Steve Jobs
The Kennedys
Bill Clinton
The entire Hollywood/Entertainment gaggle of Progressives including:
Steven Spielberg
Barbara Streisand
George Clooney
Sean Penn
Rosie O'Donnell
David Letterman

Shall I go on, or do you still not know of any rich Progressives?

Please note that I asked what you thought of rich Progressives. I did not ask if you knew any personally.

So what you're after is an arguement then. Since I don't know any, it's hard to form opinions, but they differ of course. Sean Penn is one of my heros, he would be the poster boy for my kind of rich progressive. Most of the others you listed have been pretty good to the poor. See that's the thing, progressives do spend some of their money on good causes, now show me what those Bastard CEOs that are begging for tax money have done, those "good conservatives" that wouldn't piss on a poor person if they were on fire have done. Those corporate Giants that are looting the planet and building their castles on islands have done. Those are the rich I have issues with.

 

[We Love 1]

Where are all these animals going to be living? Have you not noticed that humans have way overpopulated the earth?

Not if We live underground.

People have been living like two dimensional "flat landers". We can go down into the ground and/or up into the pyramid cities that will house ~1 million people!

We will live like ants. Theres plenty of room underground. Just think about how deep We could drill houses. The lower You go the warmer it will be!

There will be no taxes on the underground cities/homes, once You buy Your underground house its Yours, and can be passed down to Your children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4AItMg70kg&feature=related (Free at last)

 

[cackpircings]

Wow dude… I must say as a small business owner I love the Idea of capitalism. I am going to b ritch and have nice things because I choose to do so. People that don’t like the Idea have no real direction in life and don’t know where to start. After I returned back from Iraq, I had saved over 20 g. I started a small contracting comp and now it is the bread and butter of my family. I grew up in a really poor house and now I take care of my mom and dad. So really capitalism isn’t for everyone, but it is for me and I am glad that it is this way, hopefully at least till I die then I don’t care. Money isn’t everything but it sure is nice to have till you die.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

So what you're after is an arguement then. Since I don't know any, it's hard to form opinions, but they differ of course.

What I'm after is a discussion.

You have no problem forming opinions regarding Right-leaning wealthy people you don't know personally. You badmouth high achievers all the time, and I simply wondered what you thought about rich Progressives.

Sean Penn is one of my heros, he would be the poster boy for my kind of rich progressive.

As a hero to you, must know something about him enough to form an opinion. He's rich. Exactly what does he do that makes his being rich acceptable?

Most of the others you listed have been pretty good to the poor. See that's the thing, progressives do spend some of their money on good causes,

Examples. What do they do that sets them apart from Conservative rich people?

Do they simply get a pass for being Progressive and rich?

now show me what those Bastard CEOs that are begging for tax money have done, those "good conservatives" that wouldn't piss on a poor person if they were on fire have done. Those corporate Giants that are looting the planet and building their castles on islands have done. Those are the rich I have issues with.

It has not been established that all those people are Conservatives. Show me some proof.

Am I to understand that a non-corporate giant, non-island owning, non-CEO, Conservative rich guy is acceptable to you?

I think not. I suspect the G-word would find its way into your description of any non-Liberal wealthy person.

 

[misshestermoffitt]

I don't want to live like an ant. People need to derive some of their vitamin D from the sun, it helps keep them from becoming depressed.

You tunnel down, I'll stay with access to the top side.

 

[medicineman]

What I'm after is a discussion.

You have no problem forming opinions regarding Right-leaning wealthy people you don't know personally. You badmouth high achievers all the time, and I simply wondered what you thought about rich Progressives.

As a hero to you, must know something about him enough to form an opinion. He's rich. Exactly what does he do that makes his being rich acceptable?

Examples. What do they do that sets them apart from Conservative rich people?

Do they simply get a pass for being Progressive and rich?

It has not been established that all those people are Conservatives. Show me some proof.

Am I to understand that a non-corporate giant, non-island owning, non-CEO, Conservative rich guy is acceptable to you?

I think not. I suspect the G-word would find its way into your description of any non-Liberal wealthy person.

Nope, it really was an arguement you wanted Johnny. Like I said I don't know any but I've been watching Sean Penn for years and he has done some good things with his life, he gives money and time to many good causes. I'm not going to make a list, but I know he is a person of good will. As for the "conservative" CEOs, why don't you tell me of their good deeds.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Nope, it really was an arguement you wanted Johnny.

LOL! I disagree with you so, to you, I am argumentative. I press you for specifics in the wake of your nebulous responses, yet it is I who seeks an argument. LOL!

My asking for clarification is just that. It is part of the discussion.

If I am provoking an argument, it is only in your perception, Med. Disagreement is not provocation. Your evasiveness does give me pause regarding exactly who would be described as seeking an 'argument.'

Like I said I don't know any but I've been watching Sean Penn for years and he has done some good things with his life, he gives money and time to many good causes. I'm not going to make a list, but I know he is a person of good will.

So, you know he's a decent rich person. How nice.

It's refreshing to see that you feel not all rich people are evil and greedy.

As for the "conservative" CEOs, why don't you tell me of their good deeds.

Hilarious! You ask me to do for some anonymous '"conservative" CEO' what you are unable to do for Sean Penn.

You are the one who is so sure the CEOs are Conservatives. As I said previously, it has not been established what political affiliations are attached to any of the unnamed CEOs you brought up in the first place.

It is simply your opinion based on your tired, old, assumptions about Conservatives.

Why don't you come up with some names of these evil, Conservative, boogeyman CEOs? I was good enough to provide you an extensive list of rich Progressives. Just to be clear, I'm looking for examples of people who conform to the following statement:

now show me what those Bastard CEOs that are begging for tax money have done, those "good conservatives" that wouldn't piss on a poor person if they were on fire have done. Those corporate Giants that are looting the planet and building their castles on islands have done. Those are the rich I have issues with.

You can be very concise when you wish to be. And with such a vivid description, surely you can provide one name.

 

[ChChoda]

A capitalistic free market based society should have all the swings expected of a truly free market system. Free markets, and free societies, allow for all things, good and bad, and will demand occasional corrections. Good to bad, bad to good. Highs and lows. What is more free than getting to choose your poison, and living with the consequences. I like where we are going; it's about that time, I reckon....