NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
Is that it Vi? I thought you found something a little more interesting, oh well . . .
Do You Support Child Abuse ... ???
- Thread starter ViRedd
- Start date
ViRedd
New Member
Well, while you're yawning in boredom, your great grandchildren will be slaves to the God State of Liberalism. Don't worry ... be happy.
Vi
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
Hey its just a ride . . .
[youtube]iMUiwTubYu0[/youtube]
ViRedd
New Member
Right wing agenda? Oh, you must be talking about Bush Jr. Damn, man ... are you under the mistaken idea that Bush was a conservative?
The only true conservative in the last election cycle was Ron Paul ... and if I'm not mistaken, he consistently called for an end to American imperialism in the Middle East and throughout the world.
I believe that you, and others here in this forum, continually have the mistaken idea that the banner "Republican Party" is the banner of conservatism. Not necessarily so, my friend.
Vi
if it is unspecified who told you the specifics?
MuaySmoke
Well-Known Member
I'm sure glad I'm not in the States. America is eating itself from the inside out.
I'm not big on American politics, so maybe you guys can help. Why all of a sudden do they want to sit and talk about this stimulus package and find all the faults when the last one went through with no arguments. More BS spending was and still is going on with that package, but no one wants to address it. Just let the banks do what they want. This seems like 1929 all over again.
I'm not big on American politics, so maybe you guys can help. Why all of a sudden do they want to sit and talk about this stimulus package and find all the faults when the last one went through with no arguments. More BS spending was and still is going on with that package, but no one wants to address it. Just let the banks do what they want. This seems like 1929 all over again.
medicineman
New Member
One must only look to the current state of the economy to see what capitalism without regulations would reap. All these supposed Libertarians are libertarians for one reason ans one reason only, for their personal freedom to do what they want with their money. To be a libertarian, one must first have money, because if you are poor, libertarianism is not for you. It is an exclusive club of rich dicks. By the time most could amass enough money to become a member, the bar would be raised. The rich look out for their own, unlike poor folk that have such a struggle just to stay alive that they don't have time for clubs or affiliations. You find me a dirt poor libertarian and I'll show you a fool. You'll get this idiotic prose from libertarians, "Well anyone can do it", Well goddamn it, that's a fucking lie.
Brick Top
New Member
Actually legalizing marijuana and industrial hemp would be one way to get the nation into a much better financial and ecological position than it has been for years.
Right now many farmers, a high percentage of them corporate farms and not family owned farms, receive government subsidies, of taxpayer money, to not grow certain crops or to not grow more than a certain amount of crops. When there are bumper crops the government will buy the surplus, using taxpayer dollars, to keep what is marketed down to keep the prices high and also the profits for farmers.
If you take away those subsides and allow farmers to legally grow pot and industrial hemp they could easily earn more money than they do now and all the taxpayer money would be saved and able to be spent on more important things or the people could be taxed less.
Of course there would not be vast fields of pot grown because it would be a major task to separate the males from the females on such a large scale but farmers could farm small areas or better yet build greenhouses and grow there. The rest of their land could be used for other drops and or industrial hemp or they could stop farming the land themselves and rent/lease the land to other farmers and still make money off of it.
Allotments could be sold, like tobacco allotments, and the pot graded just like tobacco is when it goes to auction. When it is sold to some company that would market it, it would be taxed. Then when sold to the public it would be taxed again.
The industrial hemp would also be taxed each time it is sold from the initial selling to when it is marketed in some form to consumers.
If the government would write the law so every penny of the new tax revenues from pot and industrial hemp would go to pay off the national debt or make social security solvent or split it between the two it would make a major difference.
Then consider the savings. There would be the savings on farm subsidies because farmers would then grow as much as they could on all their land instead of being paid to not grow things and it would likely be pot on small areas or in greenhouses and industrial hemp on much of the rest of the normally unused land.
LEO agencies from Federal to local, including things like the Coast Guard, would stop chasing pot so they could transfer the funding for pot chasing to stop other drugs that are dangerous and addictive and do cause criminal activity so they would be more efficient and affective at that without getting a funding increase or more manpower because they would have the manpower and funds form their pot divisions to use for other things. Heck they might even be able to be scaled down in size and have their funding cut and still do as well as they have been doing and that means more money to use for more important things or maybe people could have their taxes reduced.
Look at the court system and the problem of prison overcrowding. The court system would be unclogged due to the reduced number of idiotic busts made because of pot and that would streamline the system and people would not have to sit in jail for so long waiting for a court date and maybe be found innocent of what they were charged with so it would shorten the time they otherwise would lose. It would save the courts money and it would reduce prison overcrowding and that would mean fewer problems in prisons and fewer people to clothe and feed and give medical attention to in prisons so that would save money too plus there would not be such a need to spend money for more prisons to be built. Again that means more money to spend on more important things or funding cuts that could mean lower taxes.
When you look at the pollution problem from fertilizers being used so heavily if industrial hemp would be added to a crop rotation cycle on the years it was grown there would not be a need for fertilizers so that would mean less runoff that ends up in ponds and lakes and streams and rivers and eventually oceans that create dead zones. Also because industrial hemp grows so fast and so tall it chokes out weeds to there would be no need for the use of herbicides those years and that is another pollutant that would not end up in all the different bodies of water and waterways.
It would also save farmers money due to not needing to buy those products and then operate expensive equipment that is not cheap to run or maintain so that would increase their profits. Since fertilizers rely on crude oil there would be a reduction of the need for crude oil to be used for those products plus the reduction of the use of diesel fuel and gasoline because less equipment would be needed to be used.
Industrial hemp feeds the soil far more than other crops so in following years when other crops would be grown there would still be a reduction in the need of the amount of fertilizer used so even on those years there would at least be less runoff polluting bodies of water and waterways.
Industrial hemp also loosens the soil more than other crops due to its root structure so that means less time and money spent on preparing fields for the following years crops and that means less fuel used and machinery used less and again that is a saving in both money and pollution.
Industrial hemp makes a far better biofuel than corn does so the U.S. could stop using so much of its corn crop to make biofuels and that would make food cheaper because every bushel of corn that goes to making fuel additives and biofuel increases the price of each bushel that goes into cereals and other foods including beef since cows are fed corn so a cheaper better biofuel could be made and the price of food could go down so there is a double savings.
Paper products could be made from industrial hemp, and would be better since unlike paper made from trees it does not yellow with age and become as brittle, so the products would be better and cheaper and far fewer trees would be needed to be cut down so that means more trees to suck in CO2 and create more fresh air plus forests would last longer for people to enjoy hiking in and camping in and hunting in etc. That is a plus in my book.
As I am sure most if not all of you know Henry Ford built a car out of industrial hemp many decades ago. It was hemp and a resin so it was much like fiberglass, like Corvettes are made of, so cars could be made from industrial hemp and that means fewer steel mills cranking out steel and polluting the air and water. The hemp car Henry Ford built was even made to run off of a biofuel made from industrial hemp so again there is a reduction in the need for crude oil.
With a legal distribution network the illegal distribution network would dry up and die without LEO having to do a darn thing and that would also cut down on crime since gangs will kill each others members for their selling turf.
Who would purchase through an illegal distribution network where the quality of the product can and does vary from purchase to purchase when there would be a legal distribution network available where all the product would be graded and you could purchase what you want and know it will be of the quality and strain/genetics that you want all the time and not have to worry about an inconsistent supply that varies in quality and price?
Consider the hundreds of millions, or maybe billions of U.S. dollars made I pot sales every year that goes untaxed right now. Add to that the amount that leaves the country and ends up in bank accounts of drug lords in foreign countries and how the banks then use that money for loans and investments and how it all goes to fuel foreign economies instead of fueling the U.S. economy. Some of the drug lords money will go into personal investments and the just increases their income and also fuels foreign economies. How much better off would the U.S. be if all that money was taxed and it remained in the U.S. to fuel our economy?
The longer you think about it and the more in depth you think about it the figures keep adding up and up when you consider what could be earned, what could be taxed and what could be saved if pot and industrial hemp would be legalized plus the environmental gains and the reduction in the need of crude oil.
When you factor everything in it becomes staggering and is beyond ones imagination to think that the government is to blind or stupid or pigheaded that it does not legalize pot and industrial hemp. There is just so very much to gain that it is the epitome of stupidity to no legalize pot and industrial hemp. But thats the U.S. government for you! Sheer stupidity at its very best!
Right now many farmers, a high percentage of them corporate farms and not family owned farms, receive government subsidies, of taxpayer money, to not grow certain crops or to not grow more than a certain amount of crops. When there are bumper crops the government will buy the surplus, using taxpayer dollars, to keep what is marketed down to keep the prices high and also the profits for farmers.
If you take away those subsides and allow farmers to legally grow pot and industrial hemp they could easily earn more money than they do now and all the taxpayer money would be saved and able to be spent on more important things or the people could be taxed less.
Of course there would not be vast fields of pot grown because it would be a major task to separate the males from the females on such a large scale but farmers could farm small areas or better yet build greenhouses and grow there. The rest of their land could be used for other drops and or industrial hemp or they could stop farming the land themselves and rent/lease the land to other farmers and still make money off of it.
Allotments could be sold, like tobacco allotments, and the pot graded just like tobacco is when it goes to auction. When it is sold to some company that would market it, it would be taxed. Then when sold to the public it would be taxed again.
The industrial hemp would also be taxed each time it is sold from the initial selling to when it is marketed in some form to consumers.
If the government would write the law so every penny of the new tax revenues from pot and industrial hemp would go to pay off the national debt or make social security solvent or split it between the two it would make a major difference.
Then consider the savings. There would be the savings on farm subsidies because farmers would then grow as much as they could on all their land instead of being paid to not grow things and it would likely be pot on small areas or in greenhouses and industrial hemp on much of the rest of the normally unused land.
LEO agencies from Federal to local, including things like the Coast Guard, would stop chasing pot so they could transfer the funding for pot chasing to stop other drugs that are dangerous and addictive and do cause criminal activity so they would be more efficient and affective at that without getting a funding increase or more manpower because they would have the manpower and funds form their pot divisions to use for other things. Heck they might even be able to be scaled down in size and have their funding cut and still do as well as they have been doing and that means more money to use for more important things or maybe people could have their taxes reduced.
Look at the court system and the problem of prison overcrowding. The court system would be unclogged due to the reduced number of idiotic busts made because of pot and that would streamline the system and people would not have to sit in jail for so long waiting for a court date and maybe be found innocent of what they were charged with so it would shorten the time they otherwise would lose. It would save the courts money and it would reduce prison overcrowding and that would mean fewer problems in prisons and fewer people to clothe and feed and give medical attention to in prisons so that would save money too plus there would not be such a need to spend money for more prisons to be built. Again that means more money to spend on more important things or funding cuts that could mean lower taxes.
When you look at the pollution problem from fertilizers being used so heavily if industrial hemp would be added to a crop rotation cycle on the years it was grown there would not be a need for fertilizers so that would mean less runoff that ends up in ponds and lakes and streams and rivers and eventually oceans that create dead zones. Also because industrial hemp grows so fast and so tall it chokes out weeds to there would be no need for the use of herbicides those years and that is another pollutant that would not end up in all the different bodies of water and waterways.
It would also save farmers money due to not needing to buy those products and then operate expensive equipment that is not cheap to run or maintain so that would increase their profits. Since fertilizers rely on crude oil there would be a reduction of the need for crude oil to be used for those products plus the reduction of the use of diesel fuel and gasoline because less equipment would be needed to be used.
Industrial hemp feeds the soil far more than other crops so in following years when other crops would be grown there would still be a reduction in the need of the amount of fertilizer used so even on those years there would at least be less runoff polluting bodies of water and waterways.
Industrial hemp also loosens the soil more than other crops due to its root structure so that means less time and money spent on preparing fields for the following years crops and that means less fuel used and machinery used less and again that is a saving in both money and pollution.
Industrial hemp makes a far better biofuel than corn does so the U.S. could stop using so much of its corn crop to make biofuels and that would make food cheaper because every bushel of corn that goes to making fuel additives and biofuel increases the price of each bushel that goes into cereals and other foods including beef since cows are fed corn so a cheaper better biofuel could be made and the price of food could go down so there is a double savings.
Paper products could be made from industrial hemp, and would be better since unlike paper made from trees it does not yellow with age and become as brittle, so the products would be better and cheaper and far fewer trees would be needed to be cut down so that means more trees to suck in CO2 and create more fresh air plus forests would last longer for people to enjoy hiking in and camping in and hunting in etc. That is a plus in my book.
As I am sure most if not all of you know Henry Ford built a car out of industrial hemp many decades ago. It was hemp and a resin so it was much like fiberglass, like Corvettes are made of, so cars could be made from industrial hemp and that means fewer steel mills cranking out steel and polluting the air and water. The hemp car Henry Ford built was even made to run off of a biofuel made from industrial hemp so again there is a reduction in the need for crude oil.
With a legal distribution network the illegal distribution network would dry up and die without LEO having to do a darn thing and that would also cut down on crime since gangs will kill each others members for their selling turf.
Who would purchase through an illegal distribution network where the quality of the product can and does vary from purchase to purchase when there would be a legal distribution network available where all the product would be graded and you could purchase what you want and know it will be of the quality and strain/genetics that you want all the time and not have to worry about an inconsistent supply that varies in quality and price?
Consider the hundreds of millions, or maybe billions of U.S. dollars made I pot sales every year that goes untaxed right now. Add to that the amount that leaves the country and ends up in bank accounts of drug lords in foreign countries and how the banks then use that money for loans and investments and how it all goes to fuel foreign economies instead of fueling the U.S. economy. Some of the drug lords money will go into personal investments and the just increases their income and also fuels foreign economies. How much better off would the U.S. be if all that money was taxed and it remained in the U.S. to fuel our economy?
The longer you think about it and the more in depth you think about it the figures keep adding up and up when you consider what could be earned, what could be taxed and what could be saved if pot and industrial hemp would be legalized plus the environmental gains and the reduction in the need of crude oil.
When you factor everything in it becomes staggering and is beyond ones imagination to think that the government is to blind or stupid or pigheaded that it does not legalize pot and industrial hemp. There is just so very much to gain that it is the epitome of stupidity to no legalize pot and industrial hemp. But thats the U.S. government for you! Sheer stupidity at its very best!
medicineman
New Member
You may forget just who profits from the illegality of pot. Starting with the grower and then the myriad of middlemen that move it along to the consumer. Then lets start with the cop on the beat. Probably at least 25% of cops duties are in dealing with drugs, mostly pot and crack. Then there are all the prosecutors, judges, defense attorneys, marshals, sheriffs, jailers, and let us not forget prisons and all that they entail. The guys at the top that are the big money boys that enjoy an income from one of the areas of growing, distribution, or penalization. Legalization would put a lot of people out of work, especially law enforcement. Don't look for legalization any time soon, sorry.
BooRadley
Well-Known Member
You are waaaay off the mark there, medicineman. Capitalism without regulations hasn't existed in this country for many, many years.
Arrogant, presumptuous, and wrong. The freedom to do with our money (and all our other personal property) as we please is only one of the reasons that Libertarians are Libertarians. We believe in a high degree of personal (social) freedom as well. We believe in taking personal responsibility for our actions, and believe that others should take responsibility for theirs. For example, you want to smoke tobacco, fine. You want to have sex with cheap prostitutes, fine. You want to stick a firecracker up your butt, fine. It's your body. But when the medical bill comes due, the responsibility for payment lies with you. You have no right to taxpayer money to fix your fuckups.
Wow. Are you really that ignorant of Libertarians and Libertarianism? If you don't care enough to learn about it, why speak on it? You couldn't be more wrong.
I'm a Libertarian. I started out a Libertarian, and poorer than any ghetto girl I ever met. Never stole, never took foodstamps. I wasn't too proud to flip burgers and clean toilets for minimum wage. I'm making a decent living now, and it is progressively better each year. That is due to discipline, education, good work ethic, and my libertarian values. (BTW, I'm not a dick, and I don't have one, either.)
I won't fill you in on my knowledge of poverty. But suffice it to say, if you were born in this country, have lived here all your life, and are under the age of 70 years, you are not qualified to say one thing to me about poverty. That is certain.
As for folks being fools...well, you're the one who is talking about things they don't know about. Think on it.
Okay, maybe not anyone...there are the mentally retarded and those with moderate to severe physical handicaps. But if you are able-bodied, and of at least average intellect, you can indeed win for yourself a handsome living in this country. Yet, anyways. Under the new regime, that may well 'change'...
ViRedd
New Member
You're either lying, stupid ... or just not paying attention.
The economic crisis began because lenders were FORCED by government edict to loan to people who couldn't pay their loans back.
You want someone to blame? Try Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Barak Hussien Obama and all the other distributionists of equal results in the Democrat and Republican Party who lead this nation.
Vi
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
Social welfare will always be necessary to some degree. Compassion and society don't mix well I suppose. This is the main flaw I see in pure Libertarian values, although I agree with most of it, there are some major flaws in old values governing in a modern society.
Ok Vi I'm not so bored anymore
Ok Vi I'm not so bored anymore
BooRadley
Well-Known Member
Social welfare is best provided by private charity. They can do a much better job for a small fraction of what it costs the government. Knowing that, it seems more compassionate to both taxpayers and the needy to put social welfare into the hands of the private charity.
If social welfare were taken out of the hands of the government, and taxes were reduced accordingly, then private charity would grow to accommodate need. (That is to say, the real need, which is significantly smaller than the perceived need.)
Some folks say that's nonsense. But as long as Democrats and Republicans hold the power, they will never know.
If social welfare were taken out of the hands of the government, and taxes were reduced accordingly, then private charity would grow to accommodate need. (That is to say, the real need, which is significantly smaller than the perceived need.)
Some folks say that's nonsense. But as long as Democrats and Republicans hold the power, they will never know.
medicineman
New Member
Private charity to help the displaced millions in this economy? A fucking joke to be sure. That is the part of libertarianism I most adamatly disagree with, That and privatization of everything. It really is a joke. The well off would never give up enough to cover the expenses of the millions that are hurting in this country. What we need are jobs and a return to the real progressive income tax, where the rich pay the most because they can afford to, period. Bush cut the taxes for the rich, we need to re-instate them, maybe even add to them. Raise the capital gains to 50-70%, that alone would pay off our debt in a few years. The cutting of that tax on the wealthy and the unnecessary war, plus the bursting of the housing bubble are the root causes of this recession/depression.
medicineman
New Member
You hole, tell me what I'm lying about. Oh that's right, you can't, because everything I'd said is the truth. It just doesn't make you feel good, so you dismiss it with your usual selfish greed. Charity my ass. I'd sure like you to show me how this charity you espouse would work. Like the millions unemployed that are now experiencing the wrath of homelessness and the 5 million more that will be aboard if this stimulous package goes down. Tell me all about your charity,, I call BULLSHIT!Like most of the Libertarians I know, I'm honest. As such, I've never known how to debate with a liar, so I'll leave you to your spew, medicineman.
Have fun.
**exits**
medicineman
New Member
You Hole, calling me a liar and dismissing my speil as such. Come on and tell me how your charity would work for the millions unemployed. How about the millions of homeless. Show me how those rich dicks will give up some of their wealth to help these people out, I call BULLSHIT. You know that Libertarianism would never work. People are way too selfish to help the millions that need help. Without some government run social programs, we'd be like 16th century europe, kings and serfs. I assume you would be in the king category, reinforcing my theory that most Libertarians are rich dicks.Like most of the Libertarians I know, I'm honest. As such, I've never known how to debate with a liar, so I'll leave you to your spew, medicineman.
Have fun.
**exits**
ViRedd
New Member
Man, you are so fucking deluded by your incessant envy, jealousy and greed. There's an old saying ... "to get less of something, tax it."
What we need are MORE capital gains not less. I mean, at what point will your stone-blind tax increases decrease the incentives to produce? At what point will your punishing tax burden finally crush the spirit of enterprise?
Vi
NewGrowth
Well-Known Member
While I agree, there are certain programs that can not be filled effectively by the private sector. Tell me the poor will be provided for when we pull welfare, unemployment insurance, Medicare, ect.
We currently spend more money per person on medical care than any other developed country yet we lack free social medical care.
I can't agree with leaving the impoverished to suffer even more even if the current system is inefficient and wasteful.