Veteran Needs Help. PICS Flowering Day 64

[BlessAmerica]

Hey RIU Memebers,

Its been about 6 months since I've been on and I haven't seen any familiar faces, but I need some help and I am asking that fellow veterans (sorry no "Strangers" please) help me with an issue.

I am on Day 64 of flowering and the tides are turning for the worst. I grew this indica strain last year and harvested at Day 58 and got 78 grams. I realized that I could have waited a week longer. So last thurday (2-19) I decided to start flushing out the nutes ( Botanicare's "ProBloom"). At this time my plant was BEAUTIFUL, all green and healthy. By Monday I had noticed 60% of the fan leafs had begun to turn rusty (NOT YELLOW AS NORMAL), and on Tuesday they were getting crispy. Fearing a major P or K withdraw shock, I gave a mild fert solution which seemed to help a little (could be wishful thinking). This is only the beggining of my delima.

As I previously stated, I had already harvested at this point last time, this problem did not occur. Also NOW (as then) ALL of my tricomes are cloudy. None are really amber, and absolutely NONE are clear. So technically (according to GrowFaq and Jorge Cervantes) my plant is "ready." However I have, as you can see in the pic, a whole bunch of new foxtails popping out (FAST) with fresh new white pistils. Even with this problem the buds are growing super fast.

I don't know if I should harvest now to prevent any damage to the buds, or wait it out as these things are still packing on weight.

I know this may sound horrible, but I will only accept "seasoned" growers replys. I mean, I will read all given, but only use that which is accredited.

Thanks to you all for your help, and I hope to have this resolved soon.

-BlessAmerica

P.S. First pic is of the top 3" of the main cola, the second is of the entire plant. You can see on the leafs the problem. I cut 4 leafs off due to the fact thery were over 50% dead.

 

[BlessAmerica]

The Second pic isn't the entire plant, just the top half.

 

[Sub Zero]

Wow, I feel your pain I'm not a hydro grower so my 2 cents is worth about -2 cents.
So I wont insult you with stupid suggestions, I'll just wish you good luck with your girl.

 

[GoldenGanja13]

Yeah I am not hydro either, but I would wait until the trichs are some what amber for that great couchlock.
Good Luck.

 

[curious.george]

Dude! I wont give you any resume so you can take or leave my opinion, I do have quite a bit of hydro experience though.

First, I do believe that you would get a bit more better bud by waiting longer. I see posts on this board with people saying when to harvest and my opinion is people harvest too early. But then I like to be real stoned. I like to be able to smoke to get to sleep. So you my like the light kind of high. No way to know your preference with out trying different harvest points.

Second, There is no such thing as a P K withdrawal shock. The problem you have looks like a root zone problem. I cant tell you exactly why but for some reason the roots are unable to deliver enough water to the plant so the leaves are droopy. If you had not just flushed I would suspect nutrient burn. Your plants will not likely pack on more weight with a root problem. As long as you don't get mold on the bud waiting more wont hurt.

You should determine the real problem so you do better on your next grow. To do this you want to determine the PH and EC of the runoff. Basically water heavily and collect a few ounces of the last water that drips out. This will let you know if the problem is PH or nute burn. Or if its neither maybe a root pathogen.

My guess is that the water you use has a PH above 7.5. Each time you water the PH of your medium goes up a little. Then when you flushed the PH went up to dangerous levels. I may be wrong. But if I am right that means you harvest could be MUCH bigger. If you have a problem that creeps up little by little than way before you see real damage your plants will be under performing for a long time.

 

[BlessAmerica]

Thanks to all who have posted. I give +REP to all replys.

Also I'm growing in soil, thus the reason I am so shocked with this (soil is harder to mess up from my experiance)


Curious George,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I've been growing for a couple years now (on and off) and I have had slight problems similar to this (nowhere near this scale). When a smaller version of this occured back in December I added a high P-K fert and it went away, so I assumed that was the issue. However I have read in my research (BIG fan of Jorge Cervantes new "Bible") that too high of a Ph can cause a nutrient lock-up in the roots, and other problems.

My city's water reads out at 8.4...... WAY TOO HIGH. But like an idiot, I have been using it anyway.

Is it too late these last few days to go buy some spring water and use that? Or do you think it would make no difference by now?

I am really upset as a week ago this plant was green, growing fast, and beautifull (buds are still nice).

Thanks VERY MUCH for your advice. I didn't mean to come across like a d!(k when I requested "experianced members only," its just I haven't been on here in a while and coming back with no familiar faces before making this thread I read some stupid advice out there that made me nervous "Boil your roots and hang the entire plant upside down so the thc goes to the buds" <---- THATS INSANE.

Again thanks and I hope all is well with you..



STILL LOOKING FOR ANY MORE COMMENTS FROM OTHER MEMBERS THANKS (+ REP TO THOSE WITH SOUND ADVICE/SUGGESTIONS/SUPPORT)

 

[phoenix58]

BlessAmerica,

I see a PH issue there too BUT let her finish it wont harm the buds. I'm a veteran soil grower who never tests PH beyond a sample test once per grow! Result is I often get a touch of that late flowering but I dont panic too much. As you have flushed her through things should begin to improve but youre going to gradually lose those leaves now anyway.

Lovely foxtailing there, shes got plenty left in her yet My advice would be to just carry on and harvest her when the trichs are ready...you wont regret it.

PS: Hope I'm seasoned enough for you I'm turned the big 50 and loved this stuff for over 30 years!

 

[Sub Zero]

Wow, I feel your pain I'm not a hydro grower so my 2 cents is worth about -2 cents.
So I wont insult you with stupid suggestions, I'll just wish you good luck with your girl.

DOH! When people talk nutes and flushing, I assume they are Hydro

 

[BlessAmerica]

Phoenix,

Thanks alot for your advice! My leafs began to get all crumbly in the very end last time, but no where near this bad. Thus the reason for my panic. Thanks for your help. I am going to wait it out longer.

 

[v12xjs]

2nd pic is nuteburn.
Leaves seem to take the brunt of the damage so you should still get a large portion of your buds. I would just water from here on in. The leaves won't improve but they will still do their job so don't cut off the damaged ones until you are manicuring.

 

[Brick Top]

Also NOW (as then) ALL of my tricomes are cloudy. None are really amber, and absolutely NONE are clear. So technically (according to GrowFaq and Jorge Cervantes) my plant is "ready." However I have, as you can see in the pic, a whole bunch of new foxtails popping out (FAST) with fresh new white pistils. Even with this problem the buds are growing super fast.

I don't know if I should harvest now to prevent any damage to the buds, or wait it out as these things are still packing on weight.

Since I an not a hydro grower I will not make any guesses as to the possible cause or causes for your plants condition but I will comment on when it is best to harvest.

It all comes down to YOUR personal preference in either a high or buzz/stone. If you like more of a head high then you do want to harvest when your trichs are milky white. If you prefer a buzz/stone then wait until most or all of your trichs are amber.

Neither option is either right or wrong in that both options will give the grower what THEY prefer so either option is the correct/best option depending on the growers likes or dislikes.

If YOU like more of a head high then do not wait for more production because that will allow many of your trichs to turn amber and you will end up with more of a buzz/stone. If YOU prefer a buzz/stone then go for the additional growth and end up with a higher yield and the buzz/stone that YOU prefer.

Jorge or no one else can tell YOU what is right or best for YOU. That is something YOU have to decide for yourself based on YOUR personal preference/likes/dislikes.

 

[mightystoned]

Magnesium is a component of the chlorophyll molecule and serves as a cofactor in most enzymes.
Magnesium (Mg) deficiency.
Magnesium deficiency will exhibit a yellowing (which may turn brown) and interveinal chlorosis beginning in the older leaves. The older leaves will be the first to develop interveinal chlorosis. Starting at leaf margin or tip and progressing inward between the veins. Notice how the veins remain somewhat green though as can be seen in figure 15.
Notice how in Figure 16 and 17 the leaves curl upwards like they're praying? They're praying for Mg! The tips may also twist.
This can be quickly resolved by watering with 1 tablespoon Epsom salts/gallon of water. Until you can correct nutrient lockout, try foliar feeding. That way the plants get all the nitrogen and Mg they need. The plants can be foliar feed at ½ teaspoon/quart of Epsom salts (first powdered and dissolved in some hot water). When mixing up soil, use 2 teaspoon dolomite lime per gallon of soil.
If the starting water is above 200 ppm, that is pretty hard water, that will lock out mg with all of the calcium in the water. Either add a 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of epsom salts or lime (both will effectively reduce the lockout or invest into a reverse osmosis water filter.
Mg can get locked-up by too much Ca, Cl or ammonium nitrogen. Don't overdo Mg or you'll lock up other nutrients.

 

[curious.george]

Thanks to all who have posted. I give +REP to all replys.

Also I'm growing in soil, thus the reason I am so shocked with this (soil is harder to mess up from my experiance)


Curious George,

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I've been growing for a couple years now (on and off) and I have had slight problems similar to this (nowhere near this scale). When a smaller version of this occured back in December I added a high P-K fert and it went away, so I assumed that was the issue. However I have read in my research (BIG fan of Jorge Cervantes new "Bible") that too high of a Ph can cause a nutrient lock-up in the roots, and other problems.

My city's water reads out at 8.4...... WAY TOO HIGH. But like an idiot, I have been using it anyway.

Is it too late these last few days to go buy some spring water and use that? Or do you think it would make no difference by now?

I am really upset as a week ago this plant was green, growing fast, and beautifull (buds are still nice).

Thanks VERY MUCH for your advice. I didn't mean to come across like a d!(k when I requested "experianced members only," its just I haven't been on here in a while and coming back with no familiar faces before making this thread I read some stupid advice out there that made me nervous "Boil your roots and hang the entire plant upside down so the thc goes to the buds" <---- THATS INSANE.

Again thanks and I hope all is well with you..



STILL LOOKING FOR ANY MORE COMMENTS FROM OTHER MEMBERS THANKS (+ REP TO THOSE WITH SOUND ADVICE/SUGGESTIONS/SUPPORT)

My city water is about the same 8. something I use it, but I adjust the PH.

Most nutes have some PH buffer in them which will bring the PH down a bit. For example my nutes will bring distilled water to a PH of 5.9 but my tap water ends up at like 7.2 with nutes. So it is possible that when you added the PK in december that lowered your ph a bit.

PH is adjustable. A good ph down from the hydro store is great but something for fish or food grade citric acid work too. You can either spend $100 on a digital meter or $10 on some drops to test your PH with. Then water with a low PH water (maybe 5.0) until the runoff is 6.5. Well that is my guess, I have not had this exact problem, also I grow hydro coco coir so maybe a soil grower has better advice.

Magnesium is a component of the chlorophyll molecule and serves as a cofactor in most enzymes.
Magnesium (Mg) deficiency.
Magnesium deficiency will exhibit a yellowing (which may turn brown) and interveinal chlorosis beginning in the older leaves. The older leaves will be the first to develop interveinal chlorosis. Starting at leaf margin or tip and progressing inward between the veins. Notice how the veins remain somewhat green though as can be seen in figure 15.
Notice how in Figure 16 and 17 the leaves curl upwards like they're praying? They're praying for Mg! The tips may also twist.
This can be quickly resolved by watering with 1 tablespoon Epsom salts/gallon of water. Until you can correct nutrient lockout, try foliar feeding. That way the plants get all the nitrogen and Mg they need. The plants can be foliar feed at ½ teaspoon/quart of Epsom salts (first powdered and dissolved in some hot water). When mixing up soil, use 2 teaspoon dolomite lime per gallon of soil.
If the starting water is above 200 ppm, that is pretty hard water, that will lock out mg with all of the calcium in the water. Either add a 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of epsom salts or lime (both will effectively reduce the lockout or invest into a reverse osmosis water filter.
Mg can get locked-up by too much Ca, Cl or ammonium nitrogen. Don't overdo Mg or you'll lock up other nutrients.

yes if the ph of the runoff is not higher than 7.2 this would be 2nd option.

 

[spiked1]

Hi BlessAmerica
I had a very similar situation about 4 months ago.
In my humble opinion, what has happenned is you started to flush, getting ready for harvest, your plant is making a last ditch effort for the survival of the species,
and as you had started to flush, It's drawing all the nutes it can from the remaining leaves as there is nothing left in the soil.
I persevered for a month longer thinking it may put on some more bud weight, but nothing exciting happened.
I would almost bet money that is what it is, but I'm not a world wide expert.

 

[v12xjs]

Just to clarify my previous and rather bland statement on nuteburn.
The sick plant guide on icmag is anexceptional piece of work and I'm sure it's very accurate, but it doesn't quite paint the whole picture. It doesn't actually tell you why you would get a single element deficiency.
If you plot the lockout range of each element in the guide then it becomes clear that many of the elements get locked out at the same time, so to take magnesium as suggested above as an example, calcium gets locked out at exactly the same range, so if it was a ph problem you had then you would have both magnesium and calcium deficiencies.
A quick glance shows that only Zinc is locked out above 7.5 which is where your ph range appears to be.
In the days of modern nute mixtures, ph buffering and chelated elements improve the availability of the elements to the plants so that deficiencies are pretty rare. Their balanced nature also means that a single element def is rarer still. Without wishing to disrespect those who use their own feeds, bat guano, worm casts or molasses simply aren't balanced and it is the use of such regimes that generally cause individual deficiencies simply because the element in deficiency isn't present or is in the wrong proportion to the other elements.
As you appear to be using a single food I wouldn't be looking for individual deficiency for these reasons.
I'm not suggesting that any old ph level will be fine for plants, just that the margin for error is much improved over older feeds or those targeted at different plant types and that problems such as yours will very often not be caused by ph or single element deficiencies.
Hope this helps.

 

[morrisgreenberg]

look at those leaves, not much action at the tips nor at the back or egdes, the issues there in in the middle of the foliage, my last soil grow i too flushed2 weeks ahead of harvest and seen ever deficiencie, this to me clearly looks like serious PH flucuation, he should be seeing at the very minimum a phosphorous Def. and see the blades of his leaves fry up

 

[v12xjs]

Personally I thought that everyone flushed for 2 weeks prior to harvest. It's certainly the commonly suggested way of avoiding fert taste in the finished product, but not everyone reports this problem.
Having looked at the 2 pics again I notice that there seems to be very little of the normal yellowing of leaves associated with the latter stages of flowering. This would suggest to me that the plant isn't drawing food from the leaves as it should be, so it's possible that rather than taking food from the leaves it's actually dumping excess nutes there instead which is what happens with nuteburn.

 

[Phelps]

Its a late in flowering mg lockout. Why its happening is only a guess from anyone as we don't know ur PH, or much else. It could be excess calcium, in that case mg gets locked out first and then K gets locked out along side of it a few days later.
It could be root rot, it could be PH.
Is it worth trying to figure out?
If it is then take the PH. If not then hope for the best.
My guess is that it is either a PH issue or overfed with calcium.

 

[TwistedBladez]

1 - PH level , if your tap water PH level is to high or to low , let it sit out for a couple or few days , add nutes then adjust the PH level.
2 - Is the root system brown? if so that could be part of the problum
3 - To hot

Just keep triming off the dead parts of the leafs to help you plant out. I'd try to wait untill at least 1/3 to 1/2 if the hairs are amber of possible

 

[morrisgreenberg]

this is why i love RIU, we get into a thread like this and i see like 10 good pieces of advice, and i dont think anyone one of us are 100% sure, one thing i am certain of and i believe in this strongly, in soil, my first grow with all my mistakes had me flushing almost routinly, second grow i was maintenance flushing monthly, this kept nutes in check and gave me a clean slate to work with every month, lots of work but my end product was the tastiest i ever had and just about problem free, did anyone mention this could be salt toxicity? just throwing that one into the mix