Yes very intristing unk ben, im about to switch over to 12/12 and have a plant food that is 10-50-10. Im ganna follow the directions but if the leaves start turning on me could i switch back to the all pupose 20-30-20 i just hit them full strenghth and flushed the day after. I would also like to know when should i add the bloom. Thanks
The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
- Start date
spiked1
Well-Known Member
Thanks UB, not too sure where to find Saltpetre or Greensand but I'll ask around.
Cheers.
SlikWiLL13
Well-Known Member
greensand should be availible at any good garden center, dont know about saltpeter.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Sorry, guess I missed ya. Such a high P food will contribute to the stretch as will foods that are high in ammonical N.
Yes, switch back to a more balanced food if you start losing leaves. Remember it's leaves that produce bud, not labels. Forget about the production and concentrate on maintaining leaves in a GREEN and healthy condition.
Good luck,
UB
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I'd use the 20-30-20 before the 10-50-10. Your call. Try it and see. If it doesn't work out you'll know better the next time around. Experimenting is what it's all about.
SpruceZeus
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more, organic growing is the biggest sham since the nail through stem "technique".
A bunch of misinformation, mad bureaucracy to get certified, and a huge grey area.
At the end of the day, because something like taste is a very subjective thing, you would be hard pressed to prove any benefeits of using organics vs "chems"
That is my opinion, take it or leave it.
I do have to also agree with the original post. Most people (myself included) are guilty of neglecting the leaves as soon as they switch to 12/12.
Like you said, its like we treat it like a different plant as soon as its flowering time.
In my most recent project (ebb and flow tables), because i'm going straight from clone into flower, i've been mixing my 3 part (hollands secret) geared more towards a balaced feeding, rather than the p-k heavy regimen the label suggests. With great results!!!
The plants are all a very dark shade of green, and bud development hasn't been hurt in the slightest. There is only a bit of rust remaining from my poor cloning ability. I do plan on continuing to feed slightly more N than recomended by the label, so long as it appears everything is still moving along at a good clip.
Anyhow, thanks for a great thread that i'm sure will continue to be a great place for the free discussion of ideas.
Drr
Well-Known Member
roots grow in the dark right?? and adding a lot of phos which makes bud and root growth during 12/12 before they are in full flower will make them concentrate on the roots since there are no flowers yet..(I think "flowering" starts when the flowers start not when you choose to let it know its the TIME of year to flower) make sense?
I also think when using huge pots from the start, the roots don't even come close to filling out the container before 12/12, and with the high phos/low nitro people use make for MAJOR stretching..(also 24/0 veg will prevent good strong roots untl 12/12 which also bring on the strecth) A plant will and can only get as high as it roots it self deep. (unless supported) Pot size/depth helps control plant hieght i believe
As for nitro.. if you are giving the plant 10 nitro.. it should get 10 nitro or a bit more(since there are bigger leaves) all the way through.. WHY on earth would the plant want less of what it is getting to survive?? doesn't matter if its flowering or not.. im sure lower nitro will prent huge growth in flowering stage and more bud growth.. BUT IT"S ALL ABOUT THE RIGHT COMBINATION AND TIMING.
potash.. well if it promotes stem and health, then why not use a decent amount all the way through??? and maybe more a bit more in early flower seeing the bud stem is a STEM.. and stems are the highways that deliver water/nutes right??
Micro nutrients are probably often over looked also..
I also think when using huge pots from the start, the roots don't even come close to filling out the container before 12/12, and with the high phos/low nitro people use make for MAJOR stretching..(also 24/0 veg will prevent good strong roots untl 12/12 which also bring on the strecth) A plant will and can only get as high as it roots it self deep. (unless supported) Pot size/depth helps control plant hieght i believe
As for nitro.. if you are giving the plant 10 nitro.. it should get 10 nitro or a bit more(since there are bigger leaves) all the way through.. WHY on earth would the plant want less of what it is getting to survive?? doesn't matter if its flowering or not.. im sure lower nitro will prent huge growth in flowering stage and more bud growth.. BUT IT"S ALL ABOUT THE RIGHT COMBINATION AND TIMING.
potash.. well if it promotes stem and health, then why not use a decent amount all the way through??? and maybe more a bit more in early flower seeing the bud stem is a STEM.. and stems are the highways that deliver water/nutes right??
Micro nutrients are probably often over looked also..
Kriegs
Well-Known Member
A few comments..
I don't think you can "make a plant concentrate.." on anything. A plant will concentrate on what is most immediate to it given the life cycle stage. The major root building happens early, then continues at a lessening pace throughout. That's why they seem to "sit there" for the first two weeks or so. Ever pull up a little 5-day old seedling? It has a massive root network for that tiny little plant. By pulling one, you see that about 90% of that first week goes into roots.
I don't see the relationship between pot size, root depth, and plant height. My plants were in 10" rounds (2-gallon); grew to 60" and were fully self-supporting; big ol' stiff stems like trees. My pots were about 70-80% occupied by roots when I chopped them; there actually was a lot of room for new roots to grow in there still.
I believe (but don't know for certain) that there may be a point where a high-phos food is useful. But, if that point exists, I think it's in the last 3-4 weeks of flowering. Think about what a plant is doing most of up thru week 5-6 of flowering? More than anything, it's producing VEG material.. way more volume and weight than flower material. It's only in that last month when the bud really packs on, gets dense, and leaf development stops or reverses.
Lastly, potassium is rarely ever limiting in soil. Only in weird geologic situations do you find this; never in a commercial soil. Same goes for most micro-nutes; I'm sure a deficiency crops up once in a blue moon, but it's way out there, IMO.
SlikWiLL13
Well-Known Member
couldnt have said it better myself.
Drr
Well-Known Member
By concentrate i meant the phos will be used for root growth instead of flowering SINCE there are NO flowers YET. YES it starts. but no where near what it needs in the last weeks. the flower growth needs to be stimulated in the early stages not raped. it can only use so much to flower the rest obviously gets distributed to the roots.... which im my theory makes smaller root systems take off with 12 hours of dark. temp is a huge factor i beleive also in strecthing.
As for your plant.. YOU HAD ROOM FOR MORE ROOTS which means it probably could have grown a bit more. PLUS i'm talking bushy also not just tall. OVERALL WEIGHT AND CENTER OF GRAVITY.. a plant in a 5 inch pot isn't even going to get close to 60 inch's unless supported.. please don't tell me it will. one cola straight up with no side branches is less likely to tip then a plant with 6 colas the same hieght. and a 2 gallon pot with soil is pretty damn heavy my friend. and you didn't come close to testing my theory.. you had more root room and a heavy pot therefore you didn't max out the pot and have the plant stay at that hieight and bush out until it cant anymore.. try it..
I agree with the higher phos in the end of the flowering cycle.. but there is such thing as too much in this world.. with everything..
Kriegs
Well-Known Member
Wasn't trying to test any theories.. just tellin ya that my 10" pots easily supported 60" plants. Sure, they could've been bigger; I chose my switch to 12/12 arbitrarily. You said a plant only grows as high as its roots' depth.. maybe you didn't mean that literally. And I wasn't really thinking of the pot as a ballast. For the space I have, maxing out plant size in veg isn't an option, as much fun as it might be.
As far as Phos or any other nutrient flowing one way or another in a pot or plant, non-usage in one growth process doesn't translate to usage in another. It's not necessarily an "either/or" process. And, it's only partly true that root growth occurs at night. Roots grow day and night, but at different rates. In general, root growth is FASTER at night, but WHY?
Because in natural soil, the roots experience the warmer temperatures of daytime later at NIGHT, because there is a lag from when the daytime heat hits below the soil surface. So, the greater root growth is due to TEMPERATURE, not light or time of day per se. So, soil in pots in an indoor environment experience warmer temps when your light is ON, not off and thus, the normal natural relationship is inversed by the artificial environment.
So, there is no reason for root growth to take off when you go to 12/12. Quite the opposite... root growth slows down in 12/12 because they experience more time in the cool (unless you have rigid temp control in your room, which some do).
Stoney Jake
Well-Known Member
I flowered a 20" tall plant in a 5" tall 16oz cup
I couldn't agree with you more on that 1 my man her she is at 2 weeks and at 28" tall. Do you think i should switch it up and go with the veg nutes. Thanks for the info what do you think.