Want to feel REALLY small?
- Thread starter Schmarmpit
- Start date
Higher Education
Well-Known Member
There is no way humans and the universe are a product of chance. If anyone is in disagreement with that last statement, then google the anthropic principle. There is an infinite number of exponential variables that had to take place at the right time, in the right order, for the correct length of time, in the right place, with the right velocity, with the right momentum, with the right acceleration, with the right jerk (acceleration squared, first derivative) with the right chemical make up, with the right impulse. This is just a few of the neccessary conditions for the infinite number of exponential variables to take place in. I have never heard of or seen an established statisician or physicist for that matter that was atheist. I just think God is more logical than microbial soup.
juststartin
Well-Known Member
thats fucking beautiful!
juststartin
Well-Known Member
behave
ANC
Well-Known Member
THe most important question is, why does the universe go through the trouble of exsting?
The answer I think lies somewhere in the description of what a you are, a bipedal primate that can survive in a certain temperature range, needing certain chemical compounds etc, and that description just keeps expanding and expanding as you need to take into the account the universe providing the sun and the matter etc...
The answer I think lies somewhere in the description of what a you are, a bipedal primate that can survive in a certain temperature range, needing certain chemical compounds etc, and that description just keeps expanding and expanding as you need to take into the account the universe providing the sun and the matter etc...
Schmarmpit
Well-Known Member
Yes, the amount of 'space' in between all molecules is amazing. A standard depiction is: if you removed all the space between electrons in molecules, you could fit all of NYC into a match box.
I'm glad you guys liked the image. It kind of gave me the chills. I had to look at it a few times just to keep on track with the size of things.
I don't truly understand this stuff but then again, who does? It does make a huge impact on how I view my life though.
RezzinTehSeahorse
Well-Known Member
well- there is no law that says we have to be the way we are right now at this time
I believe we very well could be the resultant of random chances and random happenings. if all the random chances worked out so that we didnt exist- then how would we know... we wouldnt. what im tryin to say is, that if it happened any differently, and we were still here- we would still be asking ourselves the question of whether or not it was possible for us to come into being through random chance.
bossman88188
Well-Known Member
well put im a gunna bump you for that .
loke
Well-Known Member
dam that is far out, I see it this way:
We are all just giant highly evolved parasites inhabiting an enormous sentient spherical rock which has got a nasty self perpetuating cold. I believe it has something to do with its proximity to the Sun and the conditions therein. It's so easy to catch a sickness under the right conditions, aint it?
I believe that the Ultimate (blind) goal of our species is to make our collective energy (existence) as great as possible, this is not too much unlike a native parasitic insect, consuming energy and procreating in a seemingly never ending process; which seems to always follow one pattern of perpetual existence, the drive to become greater.
In the grand scheme of things, Our dramas are as important as a dustmite is to us, vertually completely irrelevant.
We are all just giant highly evolved parasites inhabiting an enormous sentient spherical rock which has got a nasty self perpetuating cold. I believe it has something to do with its proximity to the Sun and the conditions therein. It's so easy to catch a sickness under the right conditions, aint it?
I believe that the Ultimate (blind) goal of our species is to make our collective energy (existence) as great as possible, this is not too much unlike a native parasitic insect, consuming energy and procreating in a seemingly never ending process; which seems to always follow one pattern of perpetual existence, the drive to become greater.
In the grand scheme of things, Our dramas are as important as a dustmite is to us, vertually completely irrelevant.
CreepyStevie69
Well-Known Member
my thoughts exactly...
this stuff is so interesting. and that nuclei stuff is crazy. i remember learning about that in physics. another crazy thing about it is if you had a square centemeter of just nuclei it would weigh over a ton because of how dense that material is.
oh and it crazy to think that we are never touching anything due to the fact that the electrons in the atoms are of the same polarity so they naturally repel each other. meaning we are just floating on top of everything
crazy shit.
Higher Education
Well-Known Member
Your assuming that we would still be here if things worked out differently. Our sun, which happens to be a G2 star, is the result of an explosion from a supernova, cosmic winds, and gravity. This supernova went through the same process and came from an even larger supernova. The fact that the second generation supernova and the G2 star, or our sun, both happened to form from their predecessors instead of colapsing into black holes is miraculous. Not even to mention the fact that earth ended up in such a convenient place in relation to the sun. If we were a thousand miles closer or farther from the sun we would burn or freeze to death. I would also like to mention the fact that if hydrogen wasn't so abundent and fusion didn't occur exactly right in the first yoctoseconds of the universe's existence, then oyxgen would not exist. This presents a huge problem. The only living organisms that don't need oxygen to survive are anaerobic bacteria and they are a very small minority and furthermore aren't capable of becoming complex. We simply couldn't exist without oxygen. One could argue that we could evolve some other way to survive, but we would need this ability immediately, not in a few million years, or else we would die as we came into existence.
Here is some information about star formation I was referencing to:
Nebula Stage
Stars begin in large clouds of gas and dust. Then stellar winds, or the explosion of a nearby star upsets the balance of matter within the cloud and the particles begin colliding with each other.
Because of gravity, everything is attracted to everything else and so as the particles
collide within the nebula, they begin to cluster together. Also, as the particles collide, the collisions produce heat and we have the beginnings of a star - which we call a ‘protostar'.
At this point the protostar begins to produce stellar winds that clear away some of the
gas and dust and we begin to see the stars appear as if inside cocoons. They then become what are known as ‘main sequence' stars. This is how they will spend most of their life.
http://www.astronomywa.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=335:how-do-stars-form&catid=41:ask-an-astronomer&Itemid=12
I am not even advocating a certain religion, I am just saying the idea of God seems to make more sense than coming literally from nothing. More and more scientist are starting to accept this view point. Michio Kaku, the father of Super String theory is adamant about the idea of a deity. This guy is one of the top physicists in the world right now. Francis S. Collins, the leader of the team that cracked the human genome actually wrote a book entitled "The language of God" where he offers his scientific insight as to why a deity is needed for the existence of the universe. Albert Einstein was obsessed with the idea of an orderly, controling God. He hated the idea in quantum mechanics called quantum uncertainty so badly that he once said "God does not play dice". Carl Sagan, one of the world's most renowned cosmologists and also a marijuana user believed in a higher power. Isaac Newton said the only thing he did more than physics was read his Bible.
I am not throwing fair tales out here, it is real science. All of you atheists don't take my word, I am just a college student, take the word of some of the most brilliant minds of our time. Don't just take what you wanna hear either, explore every side, every angle, and then do it again. If Einstein and Newton believed in God, then it has to be a topic worth considering and debating, right?
Higher Education
Well-Known Member
If something of higher power or higher consciousness doesn't exist, then how can the universe decide why or why not to do something?
I will try. No one take anything personal by the way, I just want everyone to think about the whole picture. I am not trying to personally target anyone and I love you all.behave
mastakoosh
Well-Known Member
this stuff is amazing.
guestrollitup
New Member
I think all these pictures are lies..
I doubt we even have a "sun"
I doubt we even have a "sun"
RezzinTehSeahorse
Well-Known Member
i'm not assuming that we would still be here if things worked out differently, i only used that as an example. let me attempt to phrase it differently because its very hard for me to explain:
we are here at this moment because of a very particular sequence of events- if it had been any differently, depending on what happened differently and how many times something happened differently in comparison to what did happen- then we would either not exist or be in a range of moderately unaltered to severely altered existence in comparison to what and where we are now. if we didnt exist- no one would be around to ponder the question. if we(or any intelligent being) exists after a different series of events- it would probably be pondering why it existed from that rare chain of events, its a question that i believe would be common among intelligent three dimensional beings with a concept of time( i have to be very specific to the type of being i refer to because who knows what other types exist throughout the universe). Example, lets say there are three planets not much different from earth that exist in different solar systems with identical initial conditions: on the first planet is where we as we know ourselves exist, on the second, a creature similiar us in intelligence comes into being but it is very much different in physical appearance, and on the third the chances work out so that no intelligent living thing with intelligence similar to ours exists.
on the first two planets the beings wonder the same question, how could things have worked out the way they did through random chance. When in fact- all they know is themselves, so of course they ask themselves the question, yes it is a very small odd for us to have come into existence- but in an infinitely large universe there are near infinite chances for that right combination of factors to come into play in order for us to exist- we are just that exact combination that came about through an galactic slot machine that is constantly pulling the lever!
Higher Education
Well-Known Member
I agree with you completely. Although there are several small factors that would determine the universe's capacity for life, there are also along of things that could vary that would have no effect on intelligent life. However, the thing that is most worthy of being considered here is how the four fundemental forces exist as we know them. They are in an extremely delicate balance and if they were in proportions any different than they are now, then the material universe couldn't exist. For example, consider the strong nuclear force. If it would have been any strong, then protons and neetrons would bump into each other and be unstable, but it had been a little weaker, then the protons and neutrons couldn't stay closely together. In either scenario, the nucleus wouldn't exist and life or matter beyond the particle level couldn't exist. Thats how fined tuned the nuclear force is, it is extremely strong relative to the other forces, but when isolated is very small. The smaller it is, the larger the margin of error is. This controls the whole infinitely large universe (if you want to call it that, it hasn't been proven or disproven), not just a part of it.
Fundamental Forces In the Universe</SPAN>
We mentioned that the laws of physics in the universe originated after the Big Bang. These laws are based on the "four fundamental forces" known to modern physics today. These forces were formed along with the formation of the first sub-atomic particles at specifically appointed times in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang to form the entire order and system of the universe. Atoms, which make up the material universe, owe their existence and extremely even distribution across the universe to the interaction of these forces. These forces are the force of mass attraction known as the gravitational force, the electromagnetic force, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force. All have a distinct intensity and field of impact. The strong and weak nuclear forces operate only at the sub-atomic scale. The remaining two - the gravitational force and the electromagnetic force - govern assemblages of atoms, in other words "matter." The flawless order on the earth is the outcome of the highly delicate proportion of these forces. A comparison of those forces produces a very interesting result. All the matter that was created and dispersed across the universe following the Big Bang was shaped by the effect of these forces, which have wide gulfs between them. Below are the stunningly different values of these forces shown in international standard units:
These fundamental forces allow the formation of the material universe through a perfect distribution of power. This proportion between the forces is based on such a delicate balance that they can cause the due effect on particles only at these particular proportions. 1. The Giant Power in the Nucleus:
The Strong Nuclear Force
Up to this point, we reviewed how the atom was created moment by moment and the delicate balances acting in this creation. We saw that everything around us, including ourselves, is made up of atoms and these atoms consist of many particles. What then is the force that holds all the particles that form the nucleus of the atom together? This force, which keeps the nucleus intact, and which is the most powerful force defined by the laws of physics, is the "strong nuclear force".
This force ensures that the protons and neutrons in the nucleus of the atom stay together without flying apart. The nucleus of the atom is formed in this way. This force is so strong that it almost causes the protons and neutrons within the nucleus to bind to each other. This is why the minute particles that possess this force are called "gluon" meaning "glue" in Latin. The strength of this bond is adjusted very sensitively. The intensity of this force has been specifically arranged to provide that the protons and neutrons keep at a certain distance to each other. If this force had been just slightly stronger, the protons and the neutrons would bump into each other. If this force had been slightly weaker, they would be dispersed. This force has just the proper degree required for the formation of the nucleus of the atom after the first seconds of the Big Bang.
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings were indicative of how destructive the strong nuclear force becomes once it is liberated. The only reason atomic bombs, which will be reviewed in more detail in the chapters ahead, are so effective is the liberation of tiny amounts of this force hidden in the nucleus of the atom.
2. Safety Belt of the Atom:
the Weak Nuclear Force
One of the most important factors maintaining order on the earth is the balance within the atom. This balance ensures that things do not suddenly fall apart or emit harmful radiation. The "weak nuclear force" is responsible for this balance between protons and neutrons in the nucleus of the atom. This force plays an important role in maintaining the equilibrium of the nuclei that contain high numbers of neutrons and protons.
As this balance is maintained, a neutron, if required, may be changed into a proton. Since the number of protons in the nucleus changes at the end of this process, the atom changes too and becomes a different atom. Here, the result is very significant. An atom transforms into a different atom without disintegrating and continues its existence. This safety belt protects living organisms against the dangers that would otherwise arise from particles breaking free uncontrollably and giving harm to people.
3. The Force That Keeps Electrons in Orbit:
The Electro-magnetic Force
The discovery of this force ushered in a new age in the world of physics. It was then understood that each particle bears "an electrical charge" according to its own structural characteristics and that a force exists between these electrical charges. This force provides that particles with opposite electrical charges attract each other and particles with the same charge repel each other, therefore ensuring that the protons in the nucleus of the atom and the electrons travelling in the orbits around it attract each other. In this way, the "nucleus" and the "electrons", the two basic elements of the atom, stay together.
The slightest change in the strength of this force would cause electrons to shoot away from the nucleus or to fall into the nucleus. In both cases, it would become impossible for the atom and therefore, the material universe to exist. Yet, from the first moment this force formed, the protons in the nucleus attracted the electrons at the exact force required for the formation of the atom thanks to the value of this force.
4. The Force Holding the Universe Together:
The Gravitational Force
Being the only force we can ordinarily perceive, it is also the one about which we know least. Commonly known as gravity, this force is actually called the "mass attraction force". Although it is the least powerful force compared to the other forces, by it very large masses attract each other. This force is the reason why the galaxies and stars in the universe stay in each other's orbits. The earth and other planets remain in a certain orbit around the sun again with the help of this gravitational force. We are able to walk on the earth because of this force. If there were a decline in the value of this force, the stars would fall, the earth would be ripped from its orbit and we would be dispersed from the earth into the space. In the case of the slightest increase, the stars would collide with each other, the earth would run into the sun and we would be pulled into the earth's crust. These may seem very remote possibilities to you now but they would be inevitable if this force had deviated from its present value even for a very short time.
All scientists doing research on this subject admit that the precisely determined values of these fundamental forces are crucial for the existence of the universe.
Supreme design and perfect order prevail in the entire universe governed by these fundamental forces. The Owner of this order is, beyond doubt, Allah, Who created everything flawlessly out of nothing. Isaac Newton (1642-1727), the father of modern physics and celestial mechanics, who is recognized as "one of the greatest scientists who ever lived" draws attention to this fact:
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all, and on account of His dominion. He is wont to be called Lord God, Universal Ruler."
Addressing this point, the famous molecular biologist Michael Denton states in his book Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe:
If, for example, the gravitational force was a trillion times stronger, then the universe would be far smaller and its life history far shorter. An average star would have a mass a trillion times less than the sun and a life span of about one year. On the other hand, if gravity had been less powerful, no stars or galaxies would have ever formed. The other relationships and values are no less critical. If the strong force had been just slightly weaker, the only element that would be stable would be hydrogen. No other atoms could exist. If it had been slightly stronger in relation to electromagnetism, then an atomic nucleus consisting of only two protons would be a stable feature of the universe-which would mean there would be no hydrogen, and if any stars or galaxies evolved, they would be very different from the way they are. Clearly, if these various forces and constants did not have precisely the values they do, there would be no stars, no supernovae, no planets, no atoms, no life.1
Renowned physicist Paul Davies states his admiration for the predetermined values of the laws of physics in the universe:
When one goes on to study cosmology, incredulity mounts. Recent discoveries about the primeval cosmos oblige us to accept that the expanding universe has been set up in its motion with a cooperation of astonishing precision.2
Supreme design and perfect order prevail in the entire universe constructed on a foundation provided by these fundamental forces. The owner of this order is, beyond doubt, Allah, Who created everything flawlessly out of nothing. Allah, the Lord of all the worlds, holds the stars in their orbits with the weakest of forces, and holds together the nucleus of the minute atom with the strongest of forces. All forces act according to the "measures" He has determined. Allah refers to the order in the creation of universe and the equilibriums "determined most exactly" in one of His verses:
Fundamental Forces In the Universe</SPAN>
We mentioned that the laws of physics in the universe originated after the Big Bang. These laws are based on the "four fundamental forces" known to modern physics today. These forces were formed along with the formation of the first sub-atomic particles at specifically appointed times in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang to form the entire order and system of the universe. Atoms, which make up the material universe, owe their existence and extremely even distribution across the universe to the interaction of these forces. These forces are the force of mass attraction known as the gravitational force, the electromagnetic force, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force. All have a distinct intensity and field of impact. The strong and weak nuclear forces operate only at the sub-atomic scale. The remaining two - the gravitational force and the electromagnetic force - govern assemblages of atoms, in other words "matter." The flawless order on the earth is the outcome of the highly delicate proportion of these forces. A comparison of those forces produces a very interesting result. All the matter that was created and dispersed across the universe following the Big Bang was shaped by the effect of these forces, which have wide gulfs between them. Below are the stunningly different values of these forces shown in international standard units:
These fundamental forces allow the formation of the material universe through a perfect distribution of power. This proportion between the forces is based on such a delicate balance that they can cause the due effect on particles only at these particular proportions. 1. The Giant Power in the Nucleus:
The Strong Nuclear Force
Up to this point, we reviewed how the atom was created moment by moment and the delicate balances acting in this creation. We saw that everything around us, including ourselves, is made up of atoms and these atoms consist of many particles. What then is the force that holds all the particles that form the nucleus of the atom together? This force, which keeps the nucleus intact, and which is the most powerful force defined by the laws of physics, is the "strong nuclear force".
This force ensures that the protons and neutrons in the nucleus of the atom stay together without flying apart. The nucleus of the atom is formed in this way. This force is so strong that it almost causes the protons and neutrons within the nucleus to bind to each other. This is why the minute particles that possess this force are called "gluon" meaning "glue" in Latin. The strength of this bond is adjusted very sensitively. The intensity of this force has been specifically arranged to provide that the protons and neutrons keep at a certain distance to each other. If this force had been just slightly stronger, the protons and the neutrons would bump into each other. If this force had been slightly weaker, they would be dispersed. This force has just the proper degree required for the formation of the nucleus of the atom after the first seconds of the Big Bang.
2. Safety Belt of the Atom:
the Weak Nuclear Force
One of the most important factors maintaining order on the earth is the balance within the atom. This balance ensures that things do not suddenly fall apart or emit harmful radiation. The "weak nuclear force" is responsible for this balance between protons and neutrons in the nucleus of the atom. This force plays an important role in maintaining the equilibrium of the nuclei that contain high numbers of neutrons and protons.
As this balance is maintained, a neutron, if required, may be changed into a proton. Since the number of protons in the nucleus changes at the end of this process, the atom changes too and becomes a different atom. Here, the result is very significant. An atom transforms into a different atom without disintegrating and continues its existence. This safety belt protects living organisms against the dangers that would otherwise arise from particles breaking free uncontrollably and giving harm to people.
3. The Force That Keeps Electrons in Orbit:
The Electro-magnetic Force
The discovery of this force ushered in a new age in the world of physics. It was then understood that each particle bears "an electrical charge" according to its own structural characteristics and that a force exists between these electrical charges. This force provides that particles with opposite electrical charges attract each other and particles with the same charge repel each other, therefore ensuring that the protons in the nucleus of the atom and the electrons travelling in the orbits around it attract each other. In this way, the "nucleus" and the "electrons", the two basic elements of the atom, stay together.
The slightest change in the strength of this force would cause electrons to shoot away from the nucleus or to fall into the nucleus. In both cases, it would become impossible for the atom and therefore, the material universe to exist. Yet, from the first moment this force formed, the protons in the nucleus attracted the electrons at the exact force required for the formation of the atom thanks to the value of this force.
One can stay in an environment without gravity only for a certain period using special equipment. Living beings can only survive in a system where gravity exists.
4. The Force Holding the Universe Together:
The Gravitational Force
Being the only force we can ordinarily perceive, it is also the one about which we know least. Commonly known as gravity, this force is actually called the "mass attraction force". Although it is the least powerful force compared to the other forces, by it very large masses attract each other. This force is the reason why the galaxies and stars in the universe stay in each other's orbits. The earth and other planets remain in a certain orbit around the sun again with the help of this gravitational force. We are able to walk on the earth because of this force. If there were a decline in the value of this force, the stars would fall, the earth would be ripped from its orbit and we would be dispersed from the earth into the space. In the case of the slightest increase, the stars would collide with each other, the earth would run into the sun and we would be pulled into the earth's crust. These may seem very remote possibilities to you now but they would be inevitable if this force had deviated from its present value even for a very short time.
All scientists doing research on this subject admit that the precisely determined values of these fundamental forces are crucial for the existence of the universe.
"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all, and on account of His dominion. He is wont to be called Lord God, Universal Ruler."
Addressing this point, the famous molecular biologist Michael Denton states in his book Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe:
If, for example, the gravitational force was a trillion times stronger, then the universe would be far smaller and its life history far shorter. An average star would have a mass a trillion times less than the sun and a life span of about one year. On the other hand, if gravity had been less powerful, no stars or galaxies would have ever formed. The other relationships and values are no less critical. If the strong force had been just slightly weaker, the only element that would be stable would be hydrogen. No other atoms could exist. If it had been slightly stronger in relation to electromagnetism, then an atomic nucleus consisting of only two protons would be a stable feature of the universe-which would mean there would be no hydrogen, and if any stars or galaxies evolved, they would be very different from the way they are. Clearly, if these various forces and constants did not have precisely the values they do, there would be no stars, no supernovae, no planets, no atoms, no life.1
Renowned physicist Paul Davies states his admiration for the predetermined values of the laws of physics in the universe:
When one goes on to study cosmology, incredulity mounts. Recent discoveries about the primeval cosmos oblige us to accept that the expanding universe has been set up in its motion with a cooperation of astonishing precision.2
Supreme design and perfect order prevail in the entire universe constructed on a foundation provided by these fundamental forces. The owner of this order is, beyond doubt, Allah, Who created everything flawlessly out of nothing. Allah, the Lord of all the worlds, holds the stars in their orbits with the weakest of forces, and holds together the nucleus of the minute atom with the strongest of forces. All forces act according to the "measures" He has determined. Allah refers to the order in the creation of universe and the equilibriums "determined most exactly" in one of His verses:
He to whom the dominion of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in His dominion. He created everything and determined it most exactly. (Surat al-Furqan: 2)
RezzinTehSeahorse
Well-Known Member
who here finds beauty in randomness?
HoppusTheCaveman
Well-Known Member
I saw this a while and it absolutely blew my mind. in a way, it changed my whole entire way of thinking.