There Is No Devil.

fish601

Active Member
The church has always been about money. Who do you think financed all those trips of colonial pillaging? They say that they aren't NOW because the money system is ripe and already set up. Start siphoning away the church's wealth (paying taxes would be a nice start) and watch them squeal.....:roll:

I dont believe the church has allways been about money but it does take money to run one
I am a christian and it makes me mad to see all those guys on tv asking for money saying you will get healed or even recieve 100x the money back its a scam and they know it.. I give money to my church a church i trust and i do see them waist some of it but i give because i love God and they help alot of needy people with it
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Wait, so because a few guys didnt mention Jesus in some scroll that is your proof He never existed?
With that logic, I dont exist either, as my neighbor never wrote a book about me. Even though other people have seen me, written about me, and documented my birth.
And dont forget who and when these Essene guys were around. If you read your own post, you will find that they were writting before Jesus was born. How can they write about about Jesus when He wasnt even born yet?
Also, arent they the ones responsible for the dead sea scrolls? Which actually proves my point more than yours.
Listen UP! It's not just a few. The Essene monastery was basically a recording studio for that area, and about the only historical documents in the supposed time of Jesus. Absolutely nothing..... that certainly means something.

If Jesus was all that and did indeed perform miracles in front of MANY MANY people, it would have been noted, certainly. It was not.

In fact, the message of Jesus disappeared for decades after his supposed existence. How could that be? Something truly as miraculous as Jesus, and poof, as soon as he's gone, so is his teachings.

The Jesus myth has all the trappings of hindsight writing. The entire New testament is filled with hindsight allegories.

Jesus made no imprint on history.
 

bigtomatofarmer

Well-Known Member
Hey Cracker whats up man? And whats the deal with your avatar? You know I liked looking that beautiful, big breasted, beer drinking chick ;-) haha j/k

Anyways I just thought Id drop my $.02 Actually, Id just like to repeat some of what was already said.

There are many many people who infact did write about Jesus, and yes they are all not in the bible (like you requested.) Jenni only mentioned a handful of them.
Lets focus on Josephus and The Essene Monastary

The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world, mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first century (Annals 15.44).

Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.” “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.”

Cracker, I am glad you brought up the subject of The Essene Monastary.
You are right, they were kinda like the recording studio for that era. But did you know Josephus Flavius was actually one of the contempararies of the first century Essene?
Then throw into the mix the scrolls of Essene which were in fact written by true scribes (historians). They were doing the recording in a monastery 20 miles from Jerusalem, and yet, not a word of Jesus. Like he never existed. These scrolls are dated from 50BC to 50 AD, and yet...nothing.
Let me copy and paste for you.....

We will begin with two ancient scholars, both of whom were contemporaries of the first century Essenes: Josephus Flavius and Philo of Alexandria. Josephus, born at Jerusalem in 37 A.D., was the greatest historian of the Jews in that period. Philo was the greatest Jewish philosopher of that period. Both men had personal knowledge of the ancient Essenes; thus, what they tell us has a high degree of credibility. In regard to the origin of the Essenes, neither Josephus nor Philo can give a specific date, but both make clear that the Essenian roots are incredibly ancient. Josephus declares that the Essenes have existed "from time immemorial" and "countless generations". Philo agrees, calling the Essenes "the most ancient of all the initiates" with a "teaching perpetuated through an immense space of ages". Josephus and Philo -- as well as several other ancient writers including Pliny the Elder -- are in consensus on two points in regard to the origin of the Essenes:


Also, a direct quote from Josephus Flavius in his book antiquties

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63


And lets not forget about those damn rulers trying to wipe out a nations existance. Jenni is right again,

It is also important to recognize that in A.D. 70, the Romans invaded and destroyed Jerusalem and most of Israel, slaughtering its inhabitants. Entire cities were literally burned to the ground. We should not be surprised, then, if much evidence of Jesus' existence was destroyed. Many of the eyewitnesses of Jesus would have been killed. These facts likely limited the amount of surviving eyewitness testimony of Jesus.


We can still be friends right? :bigjoint:
 

CrackerJax

New Member
He may have been a contemporary, but he was not a scribe recording events in that area. The Essene monastery was.

So basically any mere mention of A person named Jesus or Christ (there were volumes of declared Christs by the way....volumes). then it is validation, but all of the EMPTY SILENCE of his existence by the actual recorders of events of the time period gets ignored!! How convenient.

Again, how is it that any reference is merely a snippet of info. No detail, no miracles, no upending in Jerusalem, other than the norm that is.

There would be OVERWHELMING proof of his existence if he was indeed real.....


PS u r like the 9th person to complain about my missing lady...:mrgreen: She'll be back...promise. :lol:
 

bigtomatofarmer

Well-Known Member
He may have been a contemporary, but he was not a scribe recording events in that area. The Essene monastery was.
Did you even read my post?

Josephus Flavius was a scribe for the Essene Monastary

Josephus and Philo of Alexandria were the two most notable scribes of that time.

Its also important to understand that Josephus was NOT a christian. Infact, he witnessed the destruction of the holy temple under the command of Roman commander Titus.
 

jenni8675309

Well-Known Member
Did you even read my post?

Josephus Flavius was a scribe for the Essene Monastary

Josephus and Philo of Alexandria were the two most notable scribes of that time.

Its also important to understand that Josephus was NOT a christian. Infact, he witnessed the destruction of the holy temple under the command of Roman commander Titus.
thanks btf.
I got excited when crackerjax mentioned The Essene Monastary. Its like he wanted to help me prove my case.

Anyways, I dont think people like to read. So here is a short video
[youtube]zaehE_3MN8M[/youtube]
 

CrackerJax

New Member
So let me get this straight?! You are saying that one of the scribes recorded it but not in the scrolls? That was not how it was done back then.....

Sounds very very fishy to me. Source that for me.

nevermnd, i sourced it. Josephus was not a scribe but did visit and write about the essenian lifestyle. that does not make him a scribe. That does not validate his writings. Where's the witness testimony? Everything which is supposed to be absolutely TRUE is non verifiable. Is that any way to run a religion...of truth?
 

jenni8675309

Well-Known Member
OMG!! Not only can you not read, but you cant watch a video either. Ive given you plenty of evidence, numerous times.
Maybe you can do both, but you cant admit when your wrong, Maybe you're a man??

Pontius Pilate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate

Flavius Joseph http://reluctant-messenger.com/josephus.htm

Book 15 of the Annals(written c. 116) by the Roman historian Tacitus mentions Christus as a person convicted by Pontius Pilate during Tiberius' reign
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus



And if the Essene never believed in Jesus, tell my why there are modern day Essene Churches whom recognize Jesus as Christ?
Here is a quote from the modern day Essene

"We believe that Yeshua is the Son of God and that His demonstration while here on earth is a perfect example for all to follow. We believe that Yeshua was crucified and was resurrected on the third day."

http://biblesabbath.blogspot.com/2008/09/modern-essenes.html
http://www.churchofjerusalem.org/
 

CrackerJax

New Member
And yet no sources at the SOURCE!!! Classic history rewriting techniques!

Pontius never mentions it back to Rome...certainly that would have occurred....and yet... only third party writings can be had..... stinky fish myth.
 

g00sEgg

Well-Known Member
who cares...i don't think your changing anyone's mind. Taker your bible psycho babble somewhere else. why do people insist in driving their beliefs into others?
 

jenni8675309

Well-Known Member
And yet no sources at the SOURCE!!! Classic history rewriting techniques!

Pontius never mentions it back to Rome...certainly that would have occurred....and yet... only third party writings can be had..... stinky fish myth.
Funny, even after I give you sources, quotes, links, video you still reject the truth.
Like I said before, your mind is already closed, and therefore you will disreguard anything you dont want to hear.
It is impossible to have an intellegent conversation with you because you always resort to insults and attacks, much like a child in self defense. :wall:





who cares...i don't think your changing anyone's mind. Taker your bible psycho babble somewhere else. why do people insist in driving their beliefs into others?
I think you're right. It doesnt seem like crackerjax is budging. Also, I have no bible psycho babble.... as every refference has been proof that exists outside the bible.
Never one time have I tried to sway your belief system. I have said before that it is your decision. I am strictly talking from a historians perspective, not a religious one. as I said before......
haha, I thought you unsubscribed.
welcome back, its good to have you here.

:peace:

You dont have to believe he is Christ, or the son of God. But yes, a man named Jesus did infact walk the earth.

I am a historian and the ignorance of people who refuse to research the truth really bugs me.
I guess ignorance is bliss
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Jenni, you like the Bible i can see that. In some ways you must NEED the Bible. So be it. But how much of the Bible do you really know? I will now give you a video which ONLY sources the Bible verse.....

Let's see how good of a Christian you really are...or maybe you are just another poser who likes to belong. Let's see.... let's see if you can really be a REAL Christian.

[youtube]vkXOwBIRX7Y[/youtube]
 

jenni8675309

Well-Known Member
DONT CHANGE THE SUBJECT, lets try to stay on track.... for the moment

Who said anything about the bible? I didnt... why would you assume? And church? When did I say anything about church? I didnt, you are assuming and judging me.

I have only mentioned sources outside of the bible.....

So you are wrong again.

We were talking about a man who walked the earth, His name was Jesus. So far that is ALL you know about me.

Dont go judging me, as you will condemn yourself like you condem "church people" you hate so much
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Hahah couldn't get through it? I thought not...too logical?

All of your beliefs stem from the Bible... Take it away and what do you have? Nothing....


Back to Josephus...hmm..
Writings like Josephus’ “Antiquities of the Jews” that mention Jesus were copied exclusively by Christian scribes. Most scholars now agree that the major portion of this text that discusses Jesus was falsified by scribes who were probably surprised by the suspiciously few mentions of their savior in such histories, and attempted to correct the obvious oversight. There are no credible sources that can be used to show that the Jesus of the bible ever existed, that the identity given him is not completely contrived.
 

jenni8675309

Well-Known Member
Hahah couldn't get through it? I thought not...too logical?

All of your beliefs stem from the Bible... Take it away and what do you have? Nothing....


Back to Josephus...hmm..
Writings like Josephus’ “Antiquities of the Jews” that mention Jesus were copied exclusively by Christian scribes. Most scholars now agree that the major portion of this text that discusses Jesus was falsified by scribes who were probably surprised by the suspiciously few mentions of their savior in such histories, and attempted to correct the obvious oversight. There are no credible sources that can be used to show that the Jesus of the bible ever existed, that the identity given him is not completely contrived.

So, what you are saying is that Jesus never existed? Still? :confused:
Even after all the proof I gave you. :wall:

And quit lying... MOST SCHOLARS AGREE that Josephus is one of the most notable scholars of that time.
We will begin with two ancient scholars, both of whom were contemporaries of the first century Essenes: Josephus Flavius and Philo of Alexandria. Josephus, born at Jerusalem in 37 A.D., was the greatest historian of the Jews in that period. Philo was the greatest Jewish philosopher of that period. Both men had personal knowledge of the ancient Essenes; thus, what they tell us has a high degree of credibility. In regard to the origin of the Essenes, neither Josephus nor Philo can give a specific date, but both make clear that the Essenian roots are incredibly ancient. Josephus declares that the Essenes have existed "from time immemorial" and "countless generations". Philo agrees, calling the Essenes "the most ancient of all the initiates" with a "teaching perpetuated through an immense space of ages". Josephus and Philo -- as well as several other ancient writers including Pliny the Elder -- are in consensus on two points in regard to the origin of the Essenes:




Also, I already know about the scholars who discredit Josephus. Im glad you brought that up.... Here is the story


In book 18 of the Antiquities, 63-64, the text of Josephus as we have it today says:

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed it is lawful to call him a man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again on the third day, as the prophets of God had foretold these and ten thousand other wonders about him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.'

Here is the "other" assumption
Some scholars today agree that it has been altered by early Christians seeking to 'improve' it. It seems more likely that Josephus originally wrote something like this:About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the leading men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day.'




either way, it proves that Jesus infact DID walk this earth


Thank you, again, for helping me prove my point.
 
Top