Why is everyone so afraid of the word Socialism?

mipbar

Well-Known Member
socialism takes out the free market. puts it in the government's hands. Eliminates competition... not a good thing
Yeah, competition in health-care is soooo important (sarcasm)

If there's ever a topic that should not be about competition, and making the mighty dollar, it's health-care.

The conflict-of-interest for 'making a dollar' compared to someone's health is NOT a good idea. And, instead of the government controlling your care, INSURANCE companies, special-interests, and pharmacuetical companies do. Is that any better? I'll answer for you, NO.

The balance-sheet bottom-line rules corporations/insurance companies (competition) and god knows I want my cancer treatments determined by a corporate stooge whose ONLY interest is that bottom-line.

Btw, why does 'competition' have anything to do with quality of health-care? The typical scientist community who actually research and develop drugs, cures, treatments don't give a flying fuck about corporations balance-sheets. They typically do what they do because they care about what they are doing, not because they are doing it better than someone else. All they care about is having the FUNDING to do their research, and scientists will do JUST as good a JOB researching with government funding as they would corporate funding.
 

mipbar

Well-Known Member
if your talking bout the usa, in my opinion it is because this country runs on greed now. The corporate market is completely fuc*ed up. Everyone is back stabbing everyone and there is no ethics left, just people trying to reap in the cash. Most of the people in politics are very wealthy, why would they approve of socialism when they are wealthy? Socialism would not benefit the wealthy at all so that is why america is so against it. Ceo's are afraid of losing their ferarris and lambos.
exactly, 100%
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Now this is a VERY hard question for the President, since the question is so direct and obvious. He's obviously a genius.

[youtube]NycMq1oyEUc[/youtube]


Now this is a great speaker!!! Whew, thank goodness.....


[youtube]-rxgPRsu9v8[/youtube]
 

Antidisestablishmentarian

Well-Known Member
I'm curious.

Do you not like animals?

What you proposed would wipe out the domestic dog breeds as well as domestic felines.

Do you have any criteria for it? I ask cause I'm with you to an extent.

Unless you are a true breeder, you should get your pet spayed or neutered. But not all dogs and cats.

I'm hoping that's what you meant, Mr. Barker.
 

Gropotkin

Member
Socialism takes the power away from the poeple and into the government. How can you support anything like that?
Aren't you paying attention? There are many forms of socialism as there are many forms of market economies and many forms of Christianity and many forms of feminism and so on and so on.

Forms of socialism range from the anti-authoritarian to the totalitarian. It is a diverse field of political theory. Many modern Trotskyist/Marxist-Leninist communists are fond of saying "If it's not democratic it's not socialism.". I would have to agree with them. Stalinism (and post-Stalinist Russian communism) and modern Chinese communism are just State-run-and-owned forms of Capitalism with exceptional state control over every day life and work. And of course North Korea is some sort of auto-bureaucratic dictatorship...

Authoritarianism is the only political philosophy which really needs to be at the forefront of questioning here. Ask dead or surviving Native American Indians, Jews from Nazi Germany, Muslim Americans, African American slaves, WWII Japanese American citizens, hispanic Americans, and every other group who has at one time or another been rounded up and oppressed by an authoritarian imperialist nation. Authoritarianism is the political philosophy that has really consistently failed the needs of the people living under it.

The idea that should be on trial is the notion that human beings by their nature or by themselves are incapable of making the right choices economically, religiously, sexually, and so on.

Of course, I believe in humanity's ability to be human and seek out the choices that most reward them and I believe that Mutual Aid, painstakingly detailed by Kropotkin (who graciously donated his name for my username), has made it quite clear that social animals have evolved to avoid competition in certain spheres of life and that the best currency is still loyalty, compassion, and favors.

So not only do I believe that people must be the directors of their own fates but also that sharing is a natural and mutually beneficial way of life - indeed that it is essential to who we are as we are social beings who communicate. And what is communication if it isn't sharing?
 

Gropotkin

Member
I love animals which is why I hate to see over population. If perhaps there were free associations of dog lovers and cat lovers they could register their animals and track statistics about feral dog and cat populations. Majority rule or consensus protocols could determine whether the associations would award reccomendations to breed animals by lottery or by ordered list. This voluntary association could also help connect local vets to pet lovers and could form the basis of a mutual aid society between professional veterinarians and pet lovers where vets would receive food or services as needed (which they would determine for themselves) and given by pet lovers (as they determined their ability or desire to fulfill those needs).

Many doctors have survived this way allover the world.

This is just one way a free society could handle pet over-population. Ultimately it would be up to that free society to form their own economic dealings.

As for my insistence that pets be spayed and neutered I know that the current economic system we live under, the only game in town at the moment, is Capitalism and as a market economy wielding market forces it has made it economically unrealistic for many families to get their animals fixed due to low budgets and outofreach fees. So I don't feel like it will ever truly kill off all dog breeds. Plus the feral population of cats is in no danger. They are quite adaptable to the wild and at least half of what makes cats so attractive as pets is the fact that they do not need us. They utterly, and completely do not need us; but they choose to grace us with their presence... or perhaps we are more convenient than hunting garden snakes all night... whatever the reason. We won't be getting rid of them any time soon.

As for dog breeds and breeders: breeding has had many negative side effects to the overall well being of many dogs. Or at least the greed behind market economics has.

I'm curious.

Do you not like animals?

What you proposed would wipe out the domestic dog breeds as well as domestic felines.

Do you have any criteria for it? I ask cause I'm with you to an extent.

Unless you are a true breeder, you should get your pet spayed or neutered. But not all dogs and cats.

I'm hoping that's what you meant, Mr. Barker.
 

Gropotkin

Member
If I have learned anything from these posts it is that the number of people who genuinely love and crave freedom is great. I have also learned that we can all agree on many things:

Politicians suck.
Greed sucks.
Politicians are greedy and that sucks.
Freedom is nice and we like it.
More politicians == less freedom.

I feel that taken to their logical conclusions, these points seem to imply that less politicians mean less greed and more freedom. Before I get any accusations of utopianism (which is usually the charge hurled at anyone who challenges the existing order) I want to acknowledge that we cannot live in a vacuum - that such "anarchy" would be chaos for the social order and much suffering would ensue.

For this reason we need to organize non-hierarchical or at least radically democratic communities based on our neighborhoods, work places, cultural interests, and social interests. Furthermore we need these communities to federate and hold conventions when decisions need to be made on large scales. These communities could act like unions and they could reason between themselves to accomplish consensual, non-coercive, non-exploitative economic relationships. But just as this would mean a new cooperative society; we need a new social awareness education.

Of course, because no one but ourselves can do it, we will have the responsibility of organizing these cooperative groups around our mutual interests so that creating the new society in the shell of the old one is a conscious effort and not just riots and rampant crime.

I encourage everyone interested in decision making or facilitation or organization to take a look at the book Consensus: A New Handbook for Grassroots Social, Political, and Environmental Groups by Peter Gelderloos.


Here is a favorite quote of mine:

"In a society that treats us like incompetent, antisocial citizens/consumers/employees, our social skills atrophy like an unused muscle. Acting once again like competent, social beings requires a lot of tiring exercise. Rather than following orders or giving orders, in consensus you're forming voluntary groups to decide new and flexible ways of organizing your lives and harmonizing your activities so that everyone's needs can be met in a manner of their choosing. With enough practice, though, consensus begins to feel like second nature. Considering how empowering it can be to work with others as equals and begin reclaiming control of all the commodified, co-opted aspects of your life, the effort is well worth it."
 

snowmanexpress

Well-Known Member
Like an AKC breeded puppy, with a stamp of approval, must feel so proud to be 100% breed? Like you've got this eliteness around you? Now, I couldn't tell you what the dog or cat thinks about being full breed 100%, I can tell you the owner/breeder may be very happy for various reasons. But if it comes down to your individual features, and unexplained science of attraction regarding mating, love hate, individuals, who cares, it's about if we can get along?

Social, I know there's people who like thier kind only and try to mate and stick with thier own lines in a way right.

But possibly, if we never break away from our own mold of sorts, we will never know what the weather is really like over there in those parts of the world we never see, and without I guess, technology, and great minds, maybe never see unless you took a long ass walk, got on a boat, and went over there.

Maybe being social is the beginnings of racism itself, but Id absolutely lean to not believe that one bit, because Im sure theres still much to learn about both our sides, and what we represent, hold true to ourselves and beyond. But I would hope that I could only go so far with you, and we have our boundaries before we cross them with our social minds and views? But what is a true motivator for socialism, whatever it may be, I absolutely wonder about if it is there, or if we manifest it from our own aspirations and hopes, and build upon layers, but what is the motivator for it, the goal? Are you curious, or what, about the world or not, or stick to familiar scenes and locations around you where you born so you never get lost.

But no, press on with your ideas of repulican, democrat, right, left, and persue to relate those words and social will only lead to bullshit. Just simple names to call yourself beyond an agenda instilled upon you because you like being on that side for whatever reason? I think we have to keep that crap out of our lives in general and just simply accept one another. Dogs and Cats don't have to worry about that from what I see, but they are very social right, and they as animals like one another too hahahah.......ya right. It seems to be a predatory world out there for some in the animal kingdom. Dogs bark, cats meow, and dolphins sing in the ocean from what I hear, I can't understand them, but maybe we will someday. That would be awesome, maybe......but I cant help think if we don't want to hear what they got to say haha.
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
If I have learned anything from these posts it is that the number of people who genuinely love and crave freedom is great. I have also learned that we can all agree on many things:

Politicians suck.
Power mongering assholes, yes, they suck (mostly because they are former lawyers)

Greed sucks.
Guess you don't like the computer you're wasting everyone's time with then. That was a product of greed, or the car (the mass production of the car was the result of Greed) or tires (more greed.) Everywhere around you the results of greed and a desire to find better ways of doing things in pursuit of profit has resulted in life being easier, better, and cheaper.

Of course, I personally believe that the proper terms for "Greed" as you attempt to define it are industriousness and ingenuity. Neither of which you have in any degree.

Politicians are greedy and that sucks.
You can stop repeating yourself

Freedom is nice and we like it.
And stating the obvious

More politicians == less freedom.
More government = Less Freedom, yes, I can agree with that.


I feel that taken to their logical conclusions, these points seem to imply that less politicians mean less greed and more freedom.
If you mean the absence of a state and a truly voluntary society, then yes, I can agree with you. When everyone is free to keep the fruits of their labor with out coercion then I believe they will be more inclined to share it, because they will actually not be under duress of having a parasitical entity attempting to deprive them of the fruits of their labor.

Charity begins by protecting those that are productive from the government.


Before I get any accusations of utopianism (which is usually the charge hurled at anyone who challenges the existing order)
Actually, I believe the current vogue is to accuse people of being insane, or not understanding that humanity could not possibly provide for itself with out "government"

I want to acknowledge that we cannot live in a vacuum - that such "anarchy" would be chaos for the social order and much suffering would ensue.
I don't believe that for a moment.

For this reason we need to organize non-hierarchical or at least radically democratic communities based on our neighborhoods, work places, cultural interests, and social interests.
Hierarchical structures are natural for humanity to adopt. For most social animals there is a hierarchical structure.

Do I believe there should be more governance done at a local, as opposed to state or federal level? Of course, that goes with out saying.

I don't think we need a democratic work place. First of all, the idea is that there is some one directing the efforts to ensure that there is maximum results. In business efficiency is key, wasting resources and time to consider what some one thinks is ineffective.

Now, allowing people to have a voice in the processes when they see ways of making it better, that should be done with out question.

As far as democracy in our cultural and social interests.

Make taxes voluntary or allow people to direct them as they see fit. I don't think you can get more democratic than that, because it gives people direct control over what apparatus of the state they wish to fund. The losing portions of government can be amputated as being undesired by the public.


Furthermore we need these communities to federate and hold conventions when decisions need to be made on large scales.
Well, it's funny but that's pretty much how the United States functioned until the South decided to succeed and Lincoln used force to coerce them into a state of bondage to the federal government.

These communities could act like unions and they could reason between themselves to accomplish consensual, non-coercive, non-exploitative economic relationships.
:: coughs ::

I wonder how long before they were acting like unions with jack-booted thugs attempting to kill each other over access to cheap resources.



But just as this would mean a new cooperative society; we need a new social awareness education.
We already have a highly cooperative society, built around the ideas of free enterprise. You're just too blinded by your focus on the competitive elements to actually see the cooperation that takes place. Plenty of corporations cooperate with others, and they cooperate with their suppliers and distributors. It's a interlocking system built around attempting to bring the best products to the market.

The recent problems encounted are a result of government interference in the marketplace, of which no good has ever come from, has came from, or ever came from.

To paraphrase the title of a book, Democracy is the God that failed, because it was not able to restrain the envious from wanting to "soak" the rich via taxation. Instead of attempting to improve themselves and climb higher the "have nots" (which routinely become "haves") voted to drag the "haves" down to their level. Never mind that they never imagined that the cutting scythe of income taxation would cut them further down the ladder even as it left the rich unscathed.


Of course, because no one but ourselves can do it, we will have the responsibility of organizing these cooperative groups around our mutual interests so that creating the new society in the shell of the old one is a conscious effort and not just riots and rampant crime.
I don't know enough about your society (aside from the fact that it sounds tyrannical) to judge it. Though I'm not going to support it.


I encourage everyone interested in decision making or facilitation or organization to take a look at the book Consensus: A New Handbook for Grassroots Social, Political, and Environmental Groups by Peter Gelderloos.
Note to self : Find book, burn it in front of a mirror while reading it backwards.


Here is a favorite quote of mine:

"In a society that treats us like incompetent, antisocial citizens/consumers/employees, our social skills atrophy like an unused muscle. Acting once again like competent, social beings requires a lot of tiring exercise. Rather than following orders or giving orders, in consensus you're forming voluntary groups to decide new and flexible ways of organizing your lives and harmonizing your activities so that everyone's needs can be met in a manner of their choosing. With enough practice, though, consensus begins to feel like second nature. Considering how empowering it can be to work with others as equals and begin reclaiming control of all the commodified, co-opted aspects of your life, the effort is well worth it."
Athens tried Democracy, why don't you dig through their rubble and ask them how it handicapped them during the Peloponessian War? Maybe if you believe and practice Necromancy they'll even answer you.

As far as the quote, it ignores the fact that commodity is nothing more than a term to describe a good or service. There is no stigma around commodities. It is wrong to act as if something was "commodified" as even in the most primitive cultures everything was a commodity. Food, shelter, water, air, all commodities. There was no commodification due to commercialization.
 

medicineman

New Member
Power mongering assholes, yes, they suck (mostly because they are former lawyers)



Guess you don't like the computer you're wasting everyone's time with then. That was a product of greed, or the car (the mass production of the car was the result of Greed) or tires (more greed.) Everywhere around you the results of greed and a desire to find better ways of doing things in pursuit of profit has resulted in life being easier, better, and cheaper.

Of course, I personally believe that the proper terms for "Greed" as you attempt to define it are industriousness and ingenuity. Neither of which you have in any degree.



You can stop repeating yourself



And stating the obvious



More government = Less Freedom, yes, I can agree with that.




If you mean the absence of a state and a truly voluntary society, then yes, I can agree with you. When everyone is free to keep the fruits of their labor with out coercion then I believe they will be more inclined to share it, because they will actually not be under duress of having a parasitical entity attempting to deprive them of the fruits of their labor.

Charity begins by protecting those that are productive from the government.




Actually, I believe the current vogue is to accuse people of being insane, or not understanding that humanity could not possibly provide for itself with out "government"



I don't believe that for a moment.



Hierarchical structures are natural for humanity to adopt. For most social animals there is a hierarchical structure.

Do I believe there should be more governance done at a local, as opposed to state or federal level? Of course, that goes with out saying.

I don't think we need a democratic work place. First of all, the idea is that there is some one directing the efforts to ensure that there is maximum results. In business efficiency is key, wasting resources and time to consider what some one thinks is ineffective.

Now, allowing people to have a voice in the processes when they see ways of making it better, that should be done with out question.

As far as democracy in our cultural and social interests.

Make taxes voluntary or allow people to direct them as they see fit. I don't think you can get more democratic than that, because it gives people direct control over what apparatus of the state they wish to fund. The losing portions of government can be amputated as being undesired by the public.




Well, it's funny but that's pretty much how the United States functioned until the South decided to succeed and Lincoln used force to coerce them into a state of bondage to the federal government.



:: coughs ::

I wonder how long before they were acting like unions with jack-booted thugs attempting to kill each other over access to cheap resources.





We already have a highly cooperative society, built around the ideas of free enterprise. You're just too blinded by your focus on the competitive elements to actually see the cooperation that takes place. Plenty of corporations cooperate with others, and they cooperate with their suppliers and distributors. It's a interlocking system built around attempting to bring the best products to the market.

The recent problems encounted are a result of government interference in the marketplace, of which no good has ever come from, has came from, or ever came from.

To paraphrase the title of a book, Democracy is the God that failed, because it was not able to restrain the envious from wanting to "soak" the rich via taxation. Instead of attempting to improve themselves and climb higher the "have nots" (which routinely become "haves") voted to drag the "haves" down to their level. Never mind that they never imagined that the cutting scythe of income taxation would cut them further down the ladder even as it left the rich unscathed.




I don't know enough about your society (aside from the fact that it sounds tyrannical) to judge it. Though I'm not going to support it.




Note to self : Find book, burn it in front of a mirror while reading it backwards.




Athens tried Democracy, why don't you dig through their rubble and ask them how it handicapped them during the Peloponessian War? Maybe if you believe and practice Necromancy they'll even answer you.

As far as the quote, it ignores the fact that commodity is nothing more than a term to describe a good or service. There is no stigma around commodities. It is wrong to act as if something was "commodified" as even in the most primitive cultures everything was a commodity. Food, shelter, water, air, all commodities. There was no commodification due to commercialization.
In a word, Bullshit!
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
In a word, Bullshit!
No, actually Enslaver, I'm pretty sure that Bullshit more resembles thine own beliefs than what I stated, and in any case it would be infinitely more worthy of the debate that is supposedly encouraged by these forums if you would humble thy ego by actually posting exactly how you perceive what I stated to be Bullshit, of course that would actually assume that you could find such a justification for believing it to be Bullshit, which you are not able to.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
No, actually Enslaver, I'm pretty sure that Bullshit more resembles thine own beliefs than what I stated, and in any case it would be infinitely more worthy of the debate that is supposedly encouraged by these forums if you would humble thy ego by actually posting exactly how you perceive what I stated to be Bullshit, of course that would actually assume that you could find such a justification for believing it to be Bullshit, which you are not able to.
Greed as virtue. Selfishness as paramount virtue. More Ayn Rand from BT.....

And it's funny you don't mention the negative products of greed.....
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Funny how you think it can be mandated away by Govt. or that the govt. is somehow immune to greed. Haven't been paying attention again? :lol: Just pick up the paper and be amazed at the greed being exhibited by the ppl YOU think are going to change it all. Lawdy.... they just passed leg of 200 million so they could get some nice private jets to fly them around in. That's so NOT greedy or elitist. Your pals.....:roll:
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
Greed as virtue. Selfishness as paramount virtue. More Ayn Rand from BT.....

And it's funny you don't mention the negative products of greed.....
What negative aspects, cellphones, electricity, airplanes, jet engines, personal computers, internet. Whether the product of industriousness and ingenuity aimed at Ego Gratification or at making money the end results of greed are all positive.

The perception of negative aspects is a lunatistic idea shoved upon the rest of humanity by the Socialists who are the most greed driven group of people on the planet. They don't want just control of capital, but control over every single individual on the planet. They don't want just control of the economy, but control of everyone's personal decisions.

Do they publicly advertise that Socialism is an ideology of greed (and of death) of course not, but it is plain to any one with more intelligence than a mutt that Socialism is an ideology of greed. The entire idea of class warfare is centered around greed, envy, and lust for other's possessions.

If there is a negative side to greed it's not the bourgouisie that exhibit it, but the proletariat that believe in the imbecilic malformed ideas of Marx, who believe that they can some how magically tax themselves into prosperity and thus achieve paradise.

They are the one's that demand another's cake after eating their own. They some how believe that just because they are stupid, lazy and absolutely amoral that they deserve to benefit from the fruit of another's labor. Negative side of greed, yes, it's called Socialism, Fascism, and any other ideology that promises feasting when it only delivers famine, starvation and death.
 

YogiFresh

Active Member
Because people are fucking stupid, they listen to everything their "messiah' tells them to do, they don't even use their own judgment anymore. This is just history repeating itself once again, anyone remember the last leader that had the masses under his control like this?
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
What negative aspects, cellphones, electricity, airplanes, jet engines, personal computers, internet. Whether the product of industriousness and ingenuity aimed at Ego Gratification or at making money the end results of greed are all positive.

The perception of negative aspects is a lunatistic idea shoved upon the rest of humanity by the Socialists who are the most greed driven group of people on the planet. They don't want just control of capital, but control over every single individual on the planet. They don't want just control of the economy, but control of everyone's personal decisions.

Do they publicly advertise that Socialism is an ideology of greed (and of death) of course not, but it is plain to any one with more intelligence than a mutt that Socialism is an ideology of greed. The entire idea of class warfare is centered around greed, envy, and lust for other's possessions.

If there is a negative side to greed it's not the bourgouisie that exhibit it, but the proletariat that believe in the imbecilic malformed ideas of Marx, who believe that they can some how magically tax themselves into prosperity and thus achieve paradise.

They are the one's that demand another's cake after eating their own. They some how believe that just because they are stupid, lazy and absolutely amoral that they deserve to benefit from the fruit of another's labor. Negative side of greed, yes, it's called Socialism, Fascism, and any other ideology that promises feasting when it only delivers famine, starvation and death.
But I thought you said greed only produces good. If socialism is a result of greed, then would it be good and beneficial? Here's a modus ponens - a logically sound, middle term proof.

A. Greed is good
B. Socialism is greed
Therefore, socialism is good

I mean, come on...you really think greed doesn't victimize? You really don't think most crimes are a result of greed? I agree that politicians are greedy and evil, so Cracker's point is moot. Unfairly labeling me as a 'yes man' for the government is just plain juvenile - straw man. I do think our government is entrapped by the grip of greed. So ultimately I agree that greed (the want of profit) does lead to invention (as Nietzsche stated, all good comes from vice), but it also leads to horrific realities. Slavery was a result of greed, to name just one. I could go on and on...
 

TheBrutalTruth

Well-Known Member
But I thought you said greed only produces good. If socialism is a result of greed, then would it be good and beneficial? Here's a modus ponens - a logically sound, middle term proof.

A. Greed is good
B. Socialism is greed
Therefore, socialism is good

I mean, come on...you really think greed doesn't victimize? You really don't think most crimes are a result of greed? I agree that politicians are greedy and evil, so Cracker's point is moot. Unfairly labeling me as a 'yes man' for the government is just plain juvenile - straw man. I do think our government is entrapped by the grip of greed. So ultimately I agree that greed (the want of profit) does lead to invention (as Nietzsche stated, all good comes from vice), but it also leads to horrific realities. Slavery was a result of greed, to name just one. I could go on and on...
Two very different types of greed.

The first, the one rooted in industriousness, ingenuity and a desire for continuous self-improvement or Kaizen (to use the Japanese word for it) is good and has delivered incalculable benefit to humanity.

The other kind, the one rooted in envy, jealousy and the desire to force others down to the same level of misery as one's self, is not good, and has never delivered any benefit to humanity.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
In economics 'greed' is the term that is used to talk about how people work harder when they have the most to benefit, or lose (which is really the same thing).

That is a big reason why socialism fails, is lack of the economic greed. If people have nothing to benefit by working harder they do just enough to not get in trouble. Because getting in trouble is the only real motivation.

But it is a double edged sword, greed while it is good, ends up usually going too far and ends up with breaking what should be laws and screwing people.

Same with social welfare programs. They are good because it helps the motivated people that want to work themselves out of the situation they are in the ability to, they greedily use everything at their disposal to get ahead. But at the same time you have people that use the system just enough to not get in trouble.
 
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