notpatient
Well-Known Member
well from time to time to I stop in to check out this thread more for the pics, never said thanks for sharing this genius method of topping. Its probable no biggie for you but its a huge deal for me x4
Uncle Ben's Topping Technique to Get 2 or 4 Main Colas
- Thread starter Uncle Ben
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Hey Unkle Ben, Hello from a fellow Texan. Thank you for your fantastic thread and all the info you have shared with us.
My question is, I have a clone only cali strain(blue dream) and the stem nodes aren't parallel with each other. In other words they are not staggered. I've never really seen a pot plant grow like this in vegitive state. Back to my question, is there anyway to incorporate this technique with growth that doesn't have opposing nodes?
One more too. Have you ever seen a marijuana plant grow like this in it's vegitive state? If so could you explain to me. I've done a little research on the strain. It's suppose to be a DJ short blueberry crossed with a haze. It look like a 100% sativa but has growth qualities like a indica.
Any input would be awesome.
Thanks a lot again for all the info you've put out.
peace and love
- anonymous in texas
My question is, I have a clone only cali strain(blue dream) and the stem nodes aren't parallel with each other. In other words they are not staggered. I've never really seen a pot plant grow like this in vegitive state. Back to my question, is there anyway to incorporate this technique with growth that doesn't have opposing nodes?
One more too. Have you ever seen a marijuana plant grow like this in it's vegitive state? If so could you explain to me. I've done a little research on the strain. It's suppose to be a DJ short blueberry crossed with a haze. It look like a 100% sativa but has growth qualities like a indica.
Any input would be awesome.
Thanks a lot again for all the info you've put out.
peace and love
- anonymous in texas
born2killspam
Well-Known Member
A clone carries the genetic age of its mother plant.. A seedling will begin by growing opposing nodes.. When it reaches sexual maturity about a month into its life it will form preflowers and begin the alternating nodes you see..
A clone is as sexually mature as its mother, so they immediately grow with alternating phylotaxy.. Its not about vegitative state or light cycle, its about genetic age..
You can top a clone.. It will shift growth focus to the secondaries, but you won't get quite the same uniformity as with opposing nodes and UB's method.. Remember that alternating nodes really count as 1/2 of an opposing node, so if you want 4 equalish tops you'd need to snip above the 4th node.. And for the record, all nodes on a clone are true nodes so long as they're actively growing and not cannibalized..
A clone is as sexually mature as its mother, so they immediately grow with alternating phylotaxy.. Its not about vegitative state or light cycle, its about genetic age..
You can top a clone.. It will shift growth focus to the secondaries, but you won't get quite the same uniformity as with opposing nodes and UB's method.. Remember that alternating nodes really count as 1/2 of an opposing node, so if you want 4 equalish tops you'd need to snip above the 4th node.. And for the record, all nodes on a clone are true nodes so long as they're actively growing and not cannibalized..
Jack in the Bud
Active Member
Morn'n UB,Sounds like a good time to me! Last time I did that was bringing up a shitload of tequila to Lousiana - cajun coon asses had to go thru the line at least 3 times to be "a real man".
Using 4' shop fluors is a real easy and cheap way to start plants. Use chains to adjust the height based on the shortest ones at one end going to the taller ones at the other. Keep regular fluors almost touching the leaves. When the footprint of the leafsets grow quite a bit outside the hood, it's time to go under HID.
My philosophy is "if you ain't experimenting, then there's something wrong." You'll learn real quick. Try it. Topping reduces plant height. Whether that is an issue for you depends on your garden's profile, indica vs. sativa, etc.
Growing is all about tweaks. Everything you do plays into the final equation. You have to develop your own program. No one can do that for you.
Have fun with Mel's book. I was mesmerized many years ago. I think you will be too.
Not sure what a autodwarf is. Like I said, I play games with this hormonal response. It will work well on any plant having opposing leafsets (nodes). It works fine on autoflowering plants, those with "rudy" in them if they are still in the veg stage.
I gave up lollipops many years ago.
Good luck fellers ~
I've spent some time working in Louisiana and some of those cajun boys are definetly a different breed of cat. About the only thing I've ever missed about Louisiana is some of their cooking.
How's the wife doing?
I've been working on gathering up my componets for a soil mix like you recomended and here's what I got so far.
3.8 cf bale of Sunshine Mix #2 (70 to 80 % spahgnum peat moss, coarse perlite, gypsum, dolmitic lime and wetting agent)
2 cf bag MG potting mix.
1 cf bag EarthGro garden soil.
1 cf bag EarthGro steer manure compost.
Blood meal, Bone meal and PlantTone's garden lime (which the label says is derived from dolmitic lime)
1 8 dry quart bag of Perlite (Is that what you consider a "big" bag?)
Alfalfa pellets (50 lb sack, $13)
Still looking for some vermiculite. There was none at casa dePot yesterday but I've still got a few more places to check for it locally. I'm still not clear on what you consider a "big bag" of that and the perlite.
What do you think? Am I on the right track? I hope to get some vermiculite today so I can get it mixed up today or tommorrow so it can have 2 or 3 weeks to mellow before I use it.
Thanks.
Jack
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
I think so, but half the fun in gardening is experimenting. Keep a journal.
Wow, glad you like it. I would bet that 90% of you guys are not seeing the forests for the trees. That is not meant to be a putdown, it is again stressing what this thread is all about - redirecting growth hormones. Again, once you understand plant processes, you'll have more confidence as a grower and will be able to make solid decisions. I don't really like telling you what to do as I don't have your garden. Rather I'd like to empower you with ideas, caveats, etc. so you can make your own choices.
Hola, or shall I say "howdy"! Staggered means alternate phylotaxxy. You won't get the response you want. Growth auxins collect primarily in the apex, the end, of the dominant terminal leader. In English that means at the tip, the meristem tissue, of the usual main cola. By topping, you're terminating that point, auxins have to do somewhere so they choose the next lowest dormant buds which are located where the leaf petiole connects to the "trunk".
Thanks again Spam for your input. As usual, it's always a pleasure.
If you have staggered node sites, alternate phytolaxxy, then you may be getting a flowering response due to ruderalis genes. Sensi and some others have been known to throw them into the mix.
But you can re-veg that clone by exposing it to long days/short nights and kicking up the N quite a bit as part of a phytochrome production thingie. We had a long discussion about this age biz at CW in regards to the various terms of age, what it is, how many variances there are of "it". Remember the pissin' contest Vic High and I got into at CW? I still have the crux of that "discussion" about what constitutes "age" in different plant material. An example would be taking old scion wood, say pecan, grape, or citrus and grafting it to typical rootstock material. The scion wood has the age of it's mother, it knows it's old, but it still needs to go thru an establishment phase, some chronological age and development before it will bear fruit. This is good for another thread on that one.
She's got it made in the shade. I'm the one being run ragged. She's got herself a slave, but today when she wanted me to wash down a crapper containment sleeve that drops down into an extended height toilet seat, that's where I drew the line. "You want that fukkin' shield, then YOU're gonna clean it after every use." I'm married to one of those where if you give her an inch she'll try to take a mile - no shame.
You asked.
Sounds damn good. I'd toss in a handful of blood meal and bone meal. Don't worry about greensand or a K provision, you don't need it. Make sure that isn't hydrated lime. It MUST be dolomite. Go easy on the alfalfa, too much triacontanol can and will work against you.
You're gonna have to do this by feel and touch and of course observation regarding final soil structure, nutrition, etc. After using it for a cycle on a few plants, you'll get a feel of your program, and that's what it's all about - developing your own program and learning tweaks that work best for YOU, not someone else.
Have fun,
Tio
born2killspam
Well-Known Member
Which do you think is quicker to reach actual maturity, a reveged clone or a seed?? The seed??
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Depends on genotype and how you define "maturity". Most of the time I consider 3 week old seedlings mature and have no problem flowering them into large bushes while the next guy needs to give his faves 13 weeks veg. Depends on many factors.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
When they reach about 12-16" in height, all depends on genetics and presumed stretch.
HHF
Well-Known Member
Damn, UB, it is amazing how many folks you have helped over the years and along the way with useful cultivation help.
It must literally be millions now friend.
Peace and much respect for that effort.
HHF
HHF
Well-Known Member
I have lost track Ben, lol, for sure it has been a long and winding road and you have been there since the start.
Honestly, cannot express how much you have taught us all in the community over those years, noob's, experienced and masters alike.
Some amazing things explored along the way and its soul warming to see you still doing it, really is.
When I get stuck on plant cultivation matters I still resort to your writings on these things. No bum steers, and it has helped me a lot friend.
One of the Cannabis community's MVP's for sure. You have a big and good heart man.
Thanks again.
Peace! HHF
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Shyste burgers! I'm red with embarrassment. Don't know quite what to say other than I'm so happy I've touched your life in such a positive way. Thanks man.
I like to share. For example, I do alot of veggie gardening, canning, etc. It gives me great joy to share my harvests both in pot and veggies, fruits, grapes, etc. with others. That's what life is all about. I now work in an ag community that is collaborative. I came from a community that was competitive. It's easy once you understand the difference.
Good luck,
Uncle Ben
supdro
Well-Known Member
hey bro i used some of your techniques... we will see if they work. I used the topping technique a week before i started flower. Like you said i hope it keeps them somewhat short and get multiple colas..... I don't know if i really want them short since they are w widow. .....
jsteezy1290
Well-Known Member
hey ben , this is my first grow and im bout 4 weeks into vegging is it to late to do this? i have a thread in indoor grow that shows the size of my plants, i really dont get the node thing
Snak
Active Member
Throw me in to the mix of people who are eternally grateful for your wealth of knowledge, Ben.
My first grow consisted of 3 northern lights plants, one of which received the Uncle Ben treatment and yielded me the most (and best quality) bud between the three. Now I'm starting my 2nd grow and I've decided to top all of them this time.
HOWEVER--- I made sort of a mistake
. After attempting to top above the 2nd node, I accidentally lopped off one of the branches that eventually develops into a cola. So the two lower ones are still in tact, but the higher set will only consist of one branch. So I think I'm looking at a future 3-cola baby? I'm not worried, she'll grow just fine, but I wanted to know if you've ever made the same mistake, and how your 3-cola girl treated you?
Also, I wanted to mention that my experience using CFLs leads me to believe that it is hard to get 4 same-sized colas without the use of the natural sun or an HPS bulb. The CFL's don't seem to penetrate deeply enough to the lower branches, and instead focus a lot of energy on the higher two main branches. The 4 colas on my last plant were all different sizes, 2 being obscenely large, one was average/small, and one was damn tiny. One week after topping my most recent plants, I once again see that the higher two branches are exhibiting a lot of growth, but the lower two branches don't produce nearly as much foliage.
Regardless of that fact, the 4 cola plant I had was VERY compatible with my CFLs- they nestled right in between the colas and spread light everywhere. It was easier getting the lights where i needed them on my topped plant than it was with my untopped plants.
My first grow consisted of 3 northern lights plants, one of which received the Uncle Ben treatment and yielded me the most (and best quality) bud between the three. Now I'm starting my 2nd grow and I've decided to top all of them this time.
HOWEVER--- I made sort of a mistake
. After attempting to top above the 2nd node, I accidentally lopped off one of the branches that eventually develops into a cola. So the two lower ones are still in tact, but the higher set will only consist of one branch. So I think I'm looking at a future 3-cola baby? I'm not worried, she'll grow just fine, but I wanted to know if you've ever made the same mistake, and how your 3-cola girl treated you?Also, I wanted to mention that my experience using CFLs leads me to believe that it is hard to get 4 same-sized colas without the use of the natural sun or an HPS bulb. The CFL's don't seem to penetrate deeply enough to the lower branches, and instead focus a lot of energy on the higher two main branches. The 4 colas on my last plant were all different sizes, 2 being obscenely large, one was average/small, and one was damn tiny. One week after topping my most recent plants, I once again see that the higher two branches are exhibiting a lot of growth, but the lower two branches don't produce nearly as much foliage.
Regardless of that fact, the 4 cola plant I had was VERY compatible with my CFLs- they nestled right in between the colas and spread light everywhere. It was easier getting the lights where i needed them on my topped plant than it was with my untopped plants.
Uncle Ben
Well-Known Member
Height depends on alot of factors. White Widow should be pretty stretchy.
Sorry, can't make it any more clearer that I (we) already have. Sounds like you're not familiar with plant parts.
Appreciate that sentiment
Very cool!
Yep, but not to worry, it should branch or put out at one of the node axials. If you end up with a dominant branch aka leader from the primary one that was butchered, you might get it to grow OK and still be a dominant leader like the other 3. Never done one of those "aw shit" drills, but I wouldn't worry about it myself. Folks need to understand that in my technique, you are creating 4 dominant leaders instead of one. It's just that simple. All you're doing is redirecting the growth hormones, the greatest concentration usually located at the highest tissue point in most plant material/species. Of course there are also anti-auxins (growth inhibitors) at work too. Take a seed for example, all it is is a dormant embryo. Give this embryo certain outside influences (warmth, moisture, darkness or light) and it kicks the growth hormones into high gear which overtake the anti-growth (dormancy) hormones.HOWEVER--- I made sort of a mistake
Sorry, but compared to an HID or the sun, CFL's suck. I really don't know why folks use them. You can't turn half of the tube's output back on itself (the coil) and expect excellent efficiency. A couple of choices is to use mobile side reflecting panels moving them adjacent to the foliage as the garden's footprint expands and contracts, placing lamps at the bottom etc.
Nice, especially if they are high output. If you dropped the lamps in the middle of the 4 colas and use something around the perimeter, you'd have a nice light tweak. I'd go with cheap 4' shop hoods myself overhead or on the sides using HO or VHO fluor lamps, if you must use fluors.
Good luck,
UB
born2killspam
Well-Known Member
Something like a large canine surgery cone shaped reflector around the tops with the cfls hanging in the centre stadium style would be effective.. Mount a fan above to draw heat up, and lift the cooler CO2 rich air off the floor..
What size cfls are these anyways??
What size cfls are these anyways??
jsteezy1290
Well-Known Member
so what happens if you cut at the 5th or 6th node?
Snak
Active Member
Right now I'm working with 42W CFLs, with two 4ft 65W t5 bulbs across the top. I totally agree with Ben that they suck (compared to sunlight or hps) but they get the job done. I originally started off trying to do a budget grow, but after buying 16 42W cfls (started with less, but kept wanting more light) I could have easily put all the money into a nice HPS system. But thats what this is all about- making mistakes and learning from them.
I eventually plan on making the switch from CFLs to HPS, but until I have the extra $250 lying around (hopefully i can save that money after this harvest from not having to buy herb), I'll be tinkering with these bulbs. I will probably keep my t-5's and 6500k CFLS for vegging, as they seem to do the job just fine, but I know deep down inside that I need to make the switch to HPS for flowering.
Ben thanks again for your insight. Watching the progress of my "accident", I'm seeing much more even progress between the 3 leading branches than any of the other plants I topped, which seem to really promote the growth of the top two leading branches. This might turn into a happy accident, so I look forward to seeing how she grows.
I eventually plan on making the switch from CFLs to HPS, but until I have the extra $250 lying around (hopefully i can save that money after this harvest from not having to buy herb
), I'll be tinkering with these bulbs. I will probably keep my t-5's and 6500k CFLS for vegging, as they seem to do the job just fine, but I know deep down inside that I need to make the switch to HPS for flowering.Ben thanks again for your insight. Watching the progress of my "accident", I'm seeing much more even progress between the 3 leading branches than any of the other plants I topped, which seem to really promote the growth of the top two leading branches. This might turn into a happy accident, so I look forward to seeing how she grows.
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