What's wrong with socialism?

[Keenly]

Remember saying this?

yeah i do remember it, and im STILL referring to a complete and total change into socialism


which we are not, and never will be, because its just begging for a revolt











if there is one thing we learned from history.....its that we didnt learn shit

 

[doobnVA]

Okay you are honestly getting annoying and I don't mean to be rude or anything. Yes other countries have lots of freedoms, but America has the most freedoms. People do as they please here and a lot of other countries are not like that. If you don't like America than move to another country. This is what I mean by you being prideful. You try to belittle people like you are so much better and smarter than everyone else, but you are no better than anyone here, so stop acting like it. I also think its funny how you can't say anything good about what I said either because I know I said some good things.

Point out obvious flaws in your logic isn't belittling (unless you happen to be so full of pride yourself that you can't consider for even one moment that you might be misinformed).

Come correct or don't come at all.

 

[Green Cross]

Point out obvious flaws in your logic isn't belittling (unless you happen to be so full of pride yourself that you can't consider for even one moment that you might be misinformed).

Come correct or don't come at all.

The US now ranks 5th (and sinking like a stone) on personal liberty, than many other countries.
Check that out here. Ranking the Countries

Britain and the US are going socialist

Pay caps

Higher taxes

Less freedom

 

[NoDrama]

the government is not the "collection of all of us"

Are you a part of the government? No, you aren't and neither are 99.99999% of the rest of us.

Government employs 9% of the work force Doob, the largest employer in the USA by far.

 

[doobnVA]

yeah i do remember it, and im STILL referring to a complete and total change into socialism


which we are not, and never will be, because its just begging for a revolt











if there is one thing we learned from history.....its that we didnt learn shit

If you read the other posts in this thread, we are not discussing "absolute" socialism. Socialism and capitalism depend on one another to maintain a delicate balance of equality and liberty.

I also agree that absolute socialism would be undesirable. So would absolute capitalism, which is why we have a mixture here in the US. Our founding fathers were smart enough to realize that a society built on pure capitalism would NOT be beneficial for the people, which is why they outlined a system that could include both.

it seems the only thing we are lacking compared to nations with comparable economic and political atmospheres is a universal health care program, and opponents of "socialism" aren't putting us any closer to that due to the negative spin that's being employed.

Socialism is not inherently "bad", just as capitalism is not inherently "bad" either. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and left unchecked both can cause undesirable outcomes for the people.

Imagine for a moment that our law enforcement system were not "socialized", and that we had a "free market" emergency response system. Your child has been kidnapped, and in order for the police to do anything to help you - you first have to pay them $65,000. Or your home catches on fire, and the fire department wants $10,000 to come put it out.

Ridiculous, right? Emergency services shouldn't be for-profit! They deal in matters of life and death!

Well, apply the same thinking to health care and you have your reason why ALL socialism isn't "bad".

 

[DubsFan]

Socialism isn't totalitarianism, either. You can have democracy AND socialism together. Adopting socialist ideals doesn't mean throwing away the Constitution, which actually has a socialist influence in it already (all men are created equal).

There are lot of socialist aspects to our policies already (taxes, welfare, etc). It seems universal health coverage is the only thing we haven't embraced.

Actually, "All men created equal" is a product of our Republic. God given rights...

We are a Democratic Republic, hence the Dems and the Repubs. Havent' read the whole thread but that was like the third post. I'm getting there though.

I'll keep up on this thread as long as someone doesn't start foaming at the mouth.

Let's see how this progresses.

 

[DubsFan]

i will be the first one to admit that i know next to nothing about government and politics, but OBVIOUSLY democracy isnt working so...

Socialism is more an ecnomic plan. The UK is socialist but also a democracy.

 

[DubsFan]

Very true.

There is an economic boom after most wars. I would need to see a balance sheet showing what we spent versus Government revenue, job creation etc...

My liberal friends say nothing is black and white. Neither is the cost of war from a financial perspective, which is what socialism is. No one is to necessarily lose rights, just money.

I see it building. I'm a page into this and I see it already getting off topic. Plus I'm taking part in it...hmmmm. I don't know if I'll play ball here.

 

[Bucket head]

whats wrong with socialism is that they make everyone equal and take the money from the rich and give it to the poor. that seems right.....but its not. because the rich just say hey if i try hard and then get it taken away whats the point of trying. and if i dont try ill still get the same. so people just dont try. and then the economy fails

This is a good and very valid point, but what about people that are rich by default i.e. family money, lottery, or whatever. The point i make is that some people with money are frankly stingy as shit. Example, i took my 500 in savings to bail a friend out of jail this past week. In no way well off, but i did this because its whats right no questions asked. Being that most things in america are already nationalized/ socialized I.e jail, police, fire, public schools what have you. I doesnt seen that big of a strech to extend help to those less fortunate then myself. And if my taxes go up a little im ok with that knowing that some kid somewhere may have acces to a docter. Shit, when i was a kid me and my single mom were outa luck in that dept. While some rich kid has all kinds of oppertunities that for me were simply out of reach because of money. So with that bring said as long as personal liberties remain intact then whats the problem???? just my two cents

 

[DubsFan]

This is a good and very valid point, but what about people that are rich by default i.e. family money, lottery, or whatever. The point i make is that some people with money are frankly stingy as shit. Example, i took my 500 in savings to bail a friend out of jail this past week. In no way well off, but i did this because its whats right no questions asked. Being that most things in america are already nationalized/ socialized I.e jail, police, fire, public schools what have you. I doesnt seen that big of a strech to extend help to those less fortunate then myself. And if my taxes go up a little im ok with that knowing that some kid somewhere may have acces to a docter. Shit, when i was a kid me and my single mom were outa luck in that dept. While some rich kid has all kinds of oppertunities that for me were simply out of reach because of money. So with that bring said as long as personal liberties remain intact then whats the problem???? just my two cents

Are you really asking why we don't help the less fortunate bail their homie out of jail? You want a tax credit?

 

[doobnVA]

Government employs 9% of the work force Doob, the largest employer in the USA by far.

Try more like 2%

You're right, they are the largest employer, but "government" encompasses lots of professions - teachers, social workers, police officers, etc.

Working for the government doesn't mean you have a voice in government matters, though, just as working for a large corporation doesn't mean you get to share in the profits.

 

[doobnVA]

Are you really asking why we don't help the less fortunate bail their homie out of jail? You want a tax credit?

I think it was just an analogy. Helping your friend out even when you don't really have disposable income is akin to paying a higher tax rate so that less fortunate people can have health care.

Not saying we should raise taxes to bail people out of jail, lol.

 

[doobnVA]

Actually, "All men created equal" is a product of our Republic. God given rights...

We are a Democratic Republic, hence the Dems and the Repubs. Havent' read the whole thread but that was like the third post. I'm getting there though.

I'll keep up on this thread as long as someone doesn't start foaming at the mouth.

Let's see how this progresses.

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organisation advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterised by equal access to resources for all individuals with an egalitarian method of compensation.

Egalitarianism (derived from the French word égal, meaning "equal") has two distinct definitions in modern English [1]. It is defined either as a political doctrine that holds that all people should be treated as equals and have the same political, economic, social, and civil rights,[2] or as a social philosophy advocating the removal of economic inequalities among people.

 

[DubsFan]

My right to buy MMJ in San Diego County has hit a huge road block. Obama's DEA performed the largest raids 23+ many weeks ago in SD. Not a peep by his admin. In 2008 the Bush admin/DEA performed 8 raids. Those are hard facts dude.

Not to mention the first raid in Obama's tenure was performed in NorCal...the most liberal counties in possibly the most liberal state in the union in regards to MMJ. If Ca faces raids what does the rest of country face?

Doob, I appreciate your passion. Post your own thoughts. I don't care for links or copy/paste...it shows lack of your own belief. Unless of course you subscrive to everything you read and have to quote it.

Just saying...

 

[redivider]

There is an economic boom after most wars. I would need to see a balance sheet showing what we spent versus Government revenue, job creation etc...

My liberal friends say nothing is black and white. Neither is the cost of war from a financial perspective, which is what socialism is. No one is to necessarily lose rights, just money.

I see it building. I'm a page into this and I see it already getting off topic. Plus I'm taking part in it...hmmmm. I don't know if I'll play ball here.

actually, historically we have seen wars as an economic boom, and the post war as a period of economic recession.

WWII helped end the great depression because demand for steel, nylon, and labor increased, due to intense government investment to make jeeps, uniforms, guns, bullets, etc.... when the war ended they were well aware that the great depression could re-occur, because of the sharp decline in demand. that is why they employed the new deal, and other programs, meant to heavily invest in government funded infrastructure projects, to help absorb the increase in unemployment that happens when companies have to cut capacity, because of decreased demand....

 

[doobnVA]

The US now ranks 5th (and sinking like a stone) on personal liberty, than many other countries.
Check that out here. Ranking the Countries

Britain and the US are going socialist

Pay caps

Higher taxes

Less freedom

That's a ranking of Economic freedom, not personal liberty.

 

[DubsFan]

That's a ranking of Economic freedom, not personal liberty.

Don't worry, we all feel it slipping away. How does this help your cause?

 

[DubsFan]

actually, historically we have seen wars as an economic boom, and the post war as a period of economic recession.

WWII helped end the great depression because demand for steel, nylon, and labor increased, due to intense government investment to make jeeps, uniforms, guns, bullets, etc.... when the war ended they were well aware that the great depression could re-occur, because of the sharp decline in demand. that is why they employed the new deal, and other programs, meant to heavily invest in government funded infrastructure projects, to help absorb the increase in unemployment that happens when companies have to cut capacity, because of decreased demand....

Are you saying we should milk these wars in order to avoid recession?

 

[doobnVA]

My right to buy MMJ in San Diego County has hit a huge road block. Obama's DEA performed the largest raids 23+ many weeks ago in SD. Not a peep by his admin. In 2008 the Bush admin/DEA performed 8 raids. Those are hard facts dude.

Not to mention the first raid in Obama's tenure was performed in NorCal...the most liberal counties in possibly the most liberal state in the union in regards to MMJ. If Ca faces raids what does the rest of country face?

Doob, I appreciate your passion. Post your own thoughts. I don't care for links or copy/paste...it shows lack of your own belief. Unless of course you subscrive to everything you read and have to quote it.

Just saying...

I posted those to show that "all men created equal" is a basic philosophy of socialism. Our founders knew we could never prosper under pure capitalism (which, as a philosophy, subscribes to no such theories of equality), so they designed a system that could be both socialistic and capitalistic at the same time.

Times are tough, and money is tight. The DEA gets paid for drug raids, which would explain why the raids have increased. CA is an easy target for these federal raids, due to their open acceptance of MMJ which remains illegal under federal law.

Trust me, the dems in Congress have been trying to address the scheduling/prohibition of cannabis for some time now. With all the hubub about health care and the economy, these initiatives have fallen to the back burner. Hopefully once this health care issue has been laid to rest, they can focus on other issues of importance.

 

[doobnVA]

Don't worry, we all feel it slipping away. How does this help your cause?

I fight misinformation wherever I see it, that's my cause =)

I agree, personal liberties have been stifled recently. The USA PATRIOT Act is the most recent example of this.