MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[tree farmer]

Finally finished my HP Aero and thought id show it here since this is one of the few sites that seems to have any interest in these systems. It runs at 75-90 psi using a diaphram pump,accumulator tank and selenoid valve to control the mist cycle. Ive run 4 systems similar to these pods but with lower pressures before (40-60psi) but wanted to try the 50 micron barrier to see what type of results can be had. I built it for large ladies because thats what i like to dance with. Will see in a couple months what she can do. Let me know what you think or if you have any questions. Ill try to load pics but if they dont show up be patient im not familiar with this site process.

 

[tree farmer]

why cant i see this post

 

[fatman7574]

Wow, and people on other forums thought I was crazy for recommending Iwaki RZ pressure biased magnetic pumps. I like your system and your way of thinking. I simply use IWAKI 40 psi pumps for the main aero pipes with a timed solenoid that dumped water back straight to the reservoir 50% of the time and pressurized the standard 50 psi misters 50% of the time. I use the same set up with 25 psi pumps for clone pipe misters and early veg growth pipe misters. I believe the work much better than the typical flow biased low-pressure pumps most aero growers seem to use. They just seem to throw out a heavy drizzle like spray rather than a mist. I have some Masterflex high-pressure diaphragm pumps but they are not continuous duty and O had not thought of using a pressure tank and pressure switch etc.

So as I understand your system you are running a diaphragm pump to pressurize a pressure tank with nutrient water to an excess of 100 psi, and using a pressure switch so the pump is not running continuous. You are then drawing water from the pressure tank through a pressure reducer valve and using a repeat cycle timer controlling a solenoid valve that then supplies 75 to 90 psi nutrient water to your misters. As you are only using a few misters say 12 total that is at most probably around 120 gallons per hour if running continuous. As you are suing a timer then I assume your misters are not supplied nutrients continuously. What are you using for a diaphragm pump? What is the “Single Channel Mist Controller” shown in the photo? I have never seen such a controller. Is that a duty cycle timer for a solenoid so that each system has its own potential cycle but shares the same nutrients/pressure tank and pump?

How much metal is in your system nutrient contact areas? Were you actually able to buy a pressure control switch for the pump and pressure reducer valve without metal contact surfaces? If so from who (brand names).

I really am intrigued by the thought of better misting in my aero tubes and potential lower wattage needs of a pressure tank system.

 

[tree farmer]

fatman7574 alot of people will tell you your crazy when dealing with this but you have to do your own thing or your just a follower. Yes the pump is a shurflow 8000 series 150psi demand pump that pressures the accumulator tank to 95 psi(or whatever i want it to up to 125psi max) the pressure is held back by the selenoid valve and is released when the timer(single channel mister you refered to) releases it every 2 minutes for 2 seconds (or whatever i set it for) its just basically a repeat cycle timer.

Everything is either poly(plastic or stainless steel) except for a very small part of the pressure switch which has minimual contact with the solution. the pump only runs for 48 seconds every 15 minutes to recharge the pressure tank when it falls below 75psi. there are 4 misting nozzels in every pod and they use .08oz per second.

i have run systems almost exactly like this except with 40-60psi and larger pressure tanks before and the performance can really be outstanding so im hoping this one will outperform those.

 

[fatman7574]

Every thing makes since but the flow volumes. 0.08 ounces per second is only a flow if continous of 2.25 gallons per hour. All the standard misters I have are like 25 gallons per hour at 50 psi. Where do you get your low flow misters. I have seen some that are supposed to be available in out puts of 0.8 to 2 gph per hour but they appear to be about 3/4 inch in diamter where I would put them in the pipes. It would save on all the grommets but they would still ned to be used with the 1/4 inch spagetti tubes. Have you actually been able to get away with as little as a few seconds every two minutes? Considering I am now running at least three 90 watt nutrient pumps 24 hours per day per room an alternative would sure be nice. And less flow means less btu of nutrient cooling needed. The heads I have found are for 80 to 100 micron droplet size. I have not seen any other adds that even list the droplet micron sizes. http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=39_67&sort=2a&page=1

 

[smppro]

This site has interest in those systems? Every once in a while somebody will talk about HP aero but it never seems to get anywhere,lots of LP aero, your system looks nice will def watch this. Do you have any pics or numbers on your last crops with the lower psi, are the hp sero systems worth it? or do you just like the fuzzy roots

 

[morrisgreenberg]

fuzzy roots are the shit, but most of us barely got out of high school! i hate talkin aero when someone comes out and says "you want real aero? google tag!" that looks like a highly complex system but i cant even fathom the production that will give considering running FAG(fake aero gro) with amaxing results

 

[tree farmer]

Fatman
http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3 i have used these nozzels with my LP 40-60psi with good results. with good filter (200mesh never clogged) they are 60-80 micron and they will screw right into hose. the misters i have now will only work with 80-100psi and they have male pipe threads 1/8"

 

[tree farmer]

smppro
no pics cause havent run anything in quit awhile. but when i did 7 pods similar to these with 40-60 psi they would go from 14" to 6 feet tall and 5-6 ft around in 8 week

 

[tree farmer]

morrisgreenberg
Hell i love LP aero just want to push the edge and see what happens

 

[Atomizer]

Hi Tree Farmer
Good to see another pump/accumulator solenoid aeroponic setup..its the only way to go imho.
Seeing your pump running times, i guess your accumulator tank has a fairly small capacity. You can add extra tanks in parallel. to extend the time the pump is off.
Another suggestion is to use a 1 micron bag filter on the return to keep the debris out of the res, 200 mesh (75micron) allow much bigger particles through which combine and block stuff up

edit: i reckon your accumulator maybe somewhere around 6gal, the drawdown time from 90psi to 75psi would be about right with a 2 second/2 minute misting cycle running 16 nozzles. I enjoy the math side

Either way its a very tidy and well finished setup

 

[tree farmer]

Hi Tree Farmer
Good to see another pump/accumulator solenoid aeroponic setup..its the only way to go imho.
Seeing your pump running times, i guess your accumulator tank has a fairly small capacity. You can add extra tanks in parallel. to extend the time the pump is off.
Another suggestion is to use a 1 micron bag filter on the return to keep the debris out of the res, 200 mesh (75micron) allow much bigger particles through which combine and block stuff up

glad to see you stopped by. I always enjoyed your posts very informative and sometimes a little funny. Yes the tank is small because i wanted it to be. I have run large tanks 40 gallon before but for this app i needed everything to be modular and able to be moved easily and large tanks arent easy to do that with. this whole setup has john guest quick connect fittings and everything is on wheels with flexible hosing. also ive noticed that ive had some problems when the solution would sit for hours in the acc tank. Everything seemed to just kind of cake up on all the plumbing and i could never seem to flush it all out. Maybe it just was the PVC im not sure. Another reason its smaller is because it is very hard to find any large acc tanks that can handle the 100psi. everything in this system has a pressure rating of at least 125psi . Ive run it up to 110 and it kind of sounds like you unleashed hell when the selenoid opens.

As far as the filter goes the 200 mesh is what i used on the 40-60psi system.In this system i would not dream of only using the 200 mesh this has a 22 micron after the tank and a 1 micron absolute sediment after the pump output. I know it should really be the other way around but i couldnt find a filter housing with a small micron filter that could take the constant pressure after the tank.

Where can you get a 1 micron bag filter or how can one be made because i sure would add one if i knew where to get one. i just have never seen one.

 

[Atomizer]

I have to say its refreshing to see i`m not alone in the quest of doing something different
I get my bag filters from a local place that supplies veg oil/biodiesel type stuff, cheap and washable. You shouldnt have any trouble finding them.
I`m not sure about the caking issue, pvc should be fine, do you use RO water?
Its a bind that the larger the tank capacity, the lower the maximum working pressure. One the flipside, if you have multiple small tanks making up the capacity.. a bladder going south in one won`t affect much

I`m pretty sure you`ll have this covered but i`ll say it anyway lol, its vital to fit a pressure relief valve in the system. If the pressure switch fails closed..the accumulator can become a bomb and ruin your day.

 

[tree farmer]

I have to say its refreshing to see i`m not alone in the quest of doing something different
I get my bag filters from a local place that supplies veg oil/biodiesel type stuff, cheap and washable. You shouldnt have any trouble finding them.
I`m not sure about the caking issue, pvc should be fine, do you use RO water?
Its a bind that the larger the tank capacity, the lower the maximum working pressure. One the flipside, if you have multiple small tanks making up the capacity.. a bladder going south in one won`t affect much

I`m pretty sure you`ll have this covered but i`ll say it anyway lol, its vital to fit a pressure relief valve in the system. If the pressure switch fails closed..the accumulator can become a bomb and ruin your day.

Ill check around some of those types of stores for one. another tank in line would decrease the pump times but i feel 1 minute every 15 will work for now especially since i have in the past just cycled these pumps without tanks for months on end with only one failure.

You know Ive had a hard time finding an adjustable pressure relief valve that would open around 110psi. I dont want to use brass either. What i have done for the time being is placed another pressure switch in the line and set it for 110psi cutout. i then hooked it up to a relay so that when the switch opens at 110psi the relay will cut power to the pump off and open the selenoid valve releasing the pressure. so the pressure switch that controls the pump cuts out at 95psi and if that should fail closed then the second pressure switch will pick up when the pressure hits 110psi and stop the pump and dump the line thru the selenoid. I also have a small piercing alarm that trips if the relay cuts the power to the pump. hope that makes sense. it works cause i tryed it. im still going to fit a valve when i find the right one and then ill use the second pressure switch to trigger a backup 8000 series 239 12 volt dc pump in case the power fails or the 8000 -639 thats in there quits.

i have used 12 volt dc shurflows on a car battery with a smart charger as the main pump before for months just cycling it 30 sec on 4 minutes off for some veg time in a small system with no problems ,so i figure it would make a good back up.

Dont you just love relays you can do almost anything with them once you understand them.

Maybe you can tell me why the pressure switch will momentarly close every time the selenoid opens unless i keep the flow restricter on the selenoid valve almost closed. Im assuming its because the pressure drop in the line is to much when the valve opens because the valve is 3/4" and the line in and out is 1/2". I never had that happen on lower pressure systems but i always had larger than 1/2" lines coming out of the selenoid valves. the reason i used the larger valve in the first place was i thought if i used a 1/2 inch out to 4 1/4 inch lines i might not get enough flow. The misters work fine with the restricter tightened down but it somewhat puzzels me. whats your thoughts.

 

[Atomizer]

Sounds like you built a better mousetrap with your pressure relief solution
It should work ok as the chances of both pressure switches failing at the same time is pretty remote Finding an adjustable stainless PRV at the right money won`t be too easy, a fixed 8bar PRV (~118psi) might be easier to locate.

I`d say the pressure switch bounce is probably due to the 15psi differential on the switch. Depending on the pipe run and whether you use anti drain valves on the nozzles.. the tank will have to pressurize the pipework from the solenoid to the nozzles while they are running.
It`ll only takes a split second to pressurize everything but it may be enough to cause the pressure to dip and bounce the switch. Tightening down the solenoid restricts the flow which makes the pressure dip shallower (<15psi) but with a slightly longer duration..only a few milliseconds.

The type of pipe can be a factor too, a flexible (non rigid) line expands under high pressure and acts like a mini accumulator at the start and end of each misting pulse..30ft of garden hose expands enough to carry on misting for a good 30 seconds after the solenoid closes with just 5bar mains water pressure.

 

[tree farmer]

Sounds like you built a better mousetrap with your pressure relief solution
It should work ok as the chances of both pressure switches failing at the same time is pretty remote Finding an adjustable stainless PRV at the right money won`t be too easy, a fixed 8bar PRV (~118psi) might be easier to locate.

I`d say the pressure switch bounce is probably due to the 15psi differential on the switch. Depending on the pipe run and whether you use anti drain valves on the nozzles.. the tank will have to pressurize the pipework from the solenoid to the nozzles while they are running.
It`ll only takes a split second to pressurize everything but it may be enough to cause the pressure to dip and bounce the switch. Tightening down the solenoid restricts the flow which makes the pressure dip shallower (<15psi) but with a slightly longer duration..only a few milliseconds.

The type of pipe can be a factor too, a flexible (non rigid) line expands under high pressure and acts like a mini accumulator at the start and end of each misting pulse..30ft of garden hose expands enough to carry on misting for a good 30 seconds after the solenoid closes with just 5bar mains water pressure.

After i thought about it for awhile i deceided to not have the relay with the second pressure switch pop the selenoid valve but have it just cut the power to the pump. Becasuse when the selenoid dumps the pressure will continue to fall until the cuton pressure of the second pressure switch restores power to the first pressure switch (which in a failed closed situation will reenergize the pump and the system will just cycle between the cuton and cutoff settings of the second pressure switch. the misting would continue in this situation but at a constant misting cycle. When i dont open the selenoid when cuting the power to the pump the system will continue to just misting cycles normally but now at the second pressure switch settings. I could make it so that when the power is cut to the pump in a failed closed pressure switch the power would not come back on to the pump unless i reset it but i dont like this option over the misting cycle just continuing as normal only at the higher pressure setting off the second pressure switch. And this way in a failed pressure switch open situation the second switch would continue running the system as normal.

Now if the second pressure switch fails closed after the first one{which as you said is very unlikely} the pump would continue to pump but to be honest with you even though it is a 150 psi pump it really has to stuggle just to get the last 10 psi from 100-110psi so i doudt if it could pressure the tank pass the 125psi max pressure between the selenoid opening every 2 minutes. more than likely the pump would just continue pumping until the thermal case overload tripped it out at 205 degrees. this pump also has an external adjustable bypass valve that i keep almost closed because if i open it to much the pump wont pump up as quickly so the pump set the way it is probably cant get past 115psi and that would be a stuggle for it. If it would blow i m sure i wouldnt be in the room because when im there i would notice the longer run time on the pump as a person gets real use to these things after being around them running for awhile . plus the alarm that sounds when the first switch fails can wake the dead.

Ive noticed that after the mist cycle there is very little misting that continues for more than a second or two. these are bio nozzels. i might try some tefon ones with the antidrip feature as some of the bio ones right out of the bag dont seem to mist as well as others right out of the bag. I will probably replace the nozzels every few weeks anyway as i use to do that on my 40-60psi rigs although these are somewhat more expense to do that with.

 

[Atomizer]

Thats a good solution and it keeps the system up and running until you get a replacement switch. Having said that, a good quality external PS could run without a hitch for years, unlike the cheap spring/microswitch type fitted to most demand pumps
There`s not much of a selection of nozzles to choose from where i am. I tested everything i could find before settling on netafim coolnets (5LPH). They use a seperate 3/8" whitworth threaded base which screws into the line, the 4bar adv pushfits into the base and the nozzle assembly pushfits into the adv. Replacing a single nozzle or the entire assembly only takes a few seconds.

 

[fatman7574]

eBay has scads of 1 micron bags. [urlhttp://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m38.l1313&_nkw=1+micron+filter+bag&_sacat=See-All-Categories][/url]

Plastomatic makes nice valves with no metal wetted surfaces but even a 1/2" diaphragm type relief valves starts at $155. http://www.alscoplastics.com/product_p/0316-005-b.htm[

By my calculations for my smallest system to go to a higher pressure with accumalator tanks I would need three pumps and three tanks as I would need to supply 54 misters. I am not sure I am that displeased with the mid pressure (25 psi) system to put out the money for three sets of valves. There are some cheap reducer valves that are new surplus (not Plastomatic and only 1/4"but also only $20 or less) but no surplus all plastic pressure relief valves that I have seen. The pump costs and tank costs are not that bad. I think I would use 19 gallon tanks, with SU-8000 pumps (812-28. Even then with a minimum of 18 misters per tank/pump the duty cycle would probably still be around 2 to 3% at 50 psi mister pressure as the pump is just 1.3 gallons per minute free flowing. The tanks will alledgedly safely handle 100 psi, so possibly 75 psi might be a fure pressure used. Perhaps your using a different pump? I think even the smallest misters might be over kill even as the spacing is only 6 inches as it is a small 5" long six tube SOG set up. I think I would have to do an initail single pump/tank set up to see what the results will be with that high of pressure in small 4" tubes. Would you call the force of the droplets extreme or more of a mist/fog.

 

[tree farmer]

Thats a good solution and it keeps the system up and running until you get a replacement switch. Having said that, a good quality external PS could run without a hitch for years, unlike the cheap spring/microswitch type fitted to most demand pumps
There`s not much of a selection of nozzles to choose from where i am. I tested everything i could find before settling on netafim coolnets (5LPH). They use a seperate 3/8" whitworth threaded base which screws into the line, the 4bar adv pushfits into the base and the nozzle assembly pushfits into the adv. Replacing a single nozzle or the entire assembly only takes a few seconds.

Thats what i like about these john guest fittings also everything can just be changed in a moments notice without doing anything except pushing the collar back and sliding the flexible tubing out. i originally built this with schedule 40pvc and glued all the joints with great care but when i pressured it up it eventually started to leak. then i would fix that leak and then another joint would start weeping. I got so tired of it that i decieded to go with the quick connect fittings after realizing how well they had performed on my RO system. Now to change something around in the system or change something out only takes a second. the nozzels are threaded into the john guest tees inside the pod but i can just turn the valve to that pod off and reach in thru the access hole in the lids and pop the tee off and replace the tee with the nozzel with another tee and nozzel ive already threaded together. pretty easy. the fittings can add up quickly though as most of them are from $2-4 each but there reusable and not one of them has even let a drop squeeze by at these pressures.

I had remembered you had posted that about the PS that come with the pumps drifting and that is why i stayed clear of them. while looking for this pump one of the company reps acutually admitted to me when i asked him about that. He said they will definatly drift so if you need accuracy he said use external PS.

Im starting to think i could have gotten by with 2 nozzels in each pod because even with 2 sec on and 4 minutes off i still can see droplets pool on the net pots. i always used 4 before but then i wasnt concerned as i wasnt trying to just create mist. i do have a timer that goes to one second but its in the aero cloner. I might try that timer in this system if i cant get the root development im looking for. I might also try some .04oz per sec nozzels which is half the flow of these.

I played around with the flow restricter and found out that the more i open it up (still keeping it below the point it causes the PS to momentarly close) the longer the misting cycle continues after the selonoid closes. if kept really tight the mist stops immediatly.

Hows the vertical setup you were hoping to build going? I know more vertical space in the root zone is better for this but its hard to incorporate alot of vertical space into a tree design. I was going to use cone bottom tanks for the root zone on this but they just took up to much vertical space to allow for trees. Believe it or not those are just utility sinks with the legs removed and wheels added and insulation wrapped around them. Work great cause they drain completely not like a flat bottom container.

Do you have any nozzel clogging problems with those coolnets and are you able to clean or do you just replace.

 

[tree farmer]

eBay has scads of 1 micron bags. [urlhttp://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m38.l1313&_nkw=1+micron+filter+bag&_sacat=See-All-Categories][/url]

Plastomatic makes nice valves with no metal wetted surfaces but even a 1/2" diaphragm type relief valves starts at $155. http://www.alscoplastics.com/product_p/0316-005-b.htm[

By my calculations for my smallest system to go to a higher pressure with accumalator tanks I would need three pumps and three tanks as I would need to supply 54 misters. I am not sure I am that displeased with the mid pressure (25 psi) system to put out the money for three sets of valves. There are some cheap reducer valves that are new surplus (not Plastomatic and only 1/4"but also only $20 or less) but no surplus all plastic pressure relief valves that I have seen. The pump costs and tank costs are not that bad. I think I would use 19 gallon tanks, with SU-8000 pumps (812-28. Even then with a minimum of 18 misters per tank/pump the duty cycle would probably still be around 2 to 3% at 50 psi mister pressure as the pump is just 1.3 gallons per minute free flowing. The tanks will alledgedly safely handle 100 psi, so possibly 75 psi might be a fure pressure used. Perhaps your using a different pump? I think even the smallest misters might be over kill even as the spacing is only 6 inches as it is a small 5" long six tube SOG set up. I think I would have to do an initail single pump/tank set up to see what the results will be with that high of pressure in small 4" tubes. Would you call the force of the droplets extreme or more of a mist/fog.

Fatman
Thanks for the heads up on the bags i never thought of looking there. To tell you the truth i dont think trying to put misters with really fine droplet sizes will work that well in small tubes like you have for the simple reason there isnt alot of space in there for the mist to disperse. the misters i have are not 360 degree either thier only 120 degree and the mist goes down from the nozzel so in a small tube there just wouldnt be enough room imho.

http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8000-812-639.html this is the pump

http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=35&sort=2a&page=2
these are the selenoid valves. very cheap and are very reliable. you might have to step them up or down cause the smallest they come in are 3/4". they have a flow restricter built in but i never had to restict the flow when using them at 40-60psi.

the most nozzels i have run is 32 of the ones i linked to you before and i used a 40 gallon PT and a 1/2 HP jet pump that created 40-60 psi without any problems. the pumps are used for wells and sprinkler systems and whirlpools. those nozzels have a flow rate of 3/4GPH which with 54 nozzels would be approx. 40 GPH or .66 GPMinute. If you cycle the flow to 30 sec on every 3 minutes thats approx 17 cycles per hour which would use approx 34 gallons per hour. The shurflow pumps have low flows so thier not really going to work that well with those flow rates but there are other pumps that will work. I used jet pumps for those types of flows. even with a 40 gallon PT and those flows the pump would only kick in 2 times an hour four maybe 4 minutes.

It all comes down to matching the nozzels flow rate with your on/off cycle to the pressure tank capacity and then a pump that can pump x amount of gallons at the required pressure to pressurize the accumulator tank. Remember when sizing a pressure tank that if it says 40 gallon that doesnt mean it will give you 40 gallons of water. they have a drawdown capacity that is less than the total they have. My little tank only is 5 gallon with around 1 gallon drawdown-(that means usable amount of water before it has to be pumped back up by the pump). I can get away with this small tank because my nozzels on this app have very low flow rates and i only have 16 nozzels. i couldnt run 54 nozzels on this small tank.

It can be somewhat confusing and your right dont believe what they list as the pressure for those tanks. they list the max pressure not the safe operating pressure which is always less than the listed. But most pressure tanks are designed for well or RO systems and can handle 60psi. its only when trying to find a large tank with high pressures it becomes difficult and expensive.

There is no force what soever the mist just comes out of the nozzel. i can put my hand right against the nozzel and even at 95psi in the line there is no force to injure my hand or the roots for that matter. Although like i said before the mist needs room to disperse.
When i used the 3/4 gph nozzels i had them in 22 gallon containers (4 in each).

I dont have any experience with nozzels in that small of a space but if i was doing tubes with 40-60psi i would make it net pot then nozzel then net pot. because the nozzels are 360 degrees and could cover 2 netpots. one on each side. maybe this is how you have it now