MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[Atomizer]

The JG fittings are worth the money just for the convenience factor, you only have to buy them once as they`ll last forever.

I have most of the kit for the vertical, its just a case of finding the time to get hardware installed in the shed and the vertical installed in the greenhouse.. there`s always something more pressing on the wifes to-do list.

I bought an italian made external pressure switch with a working range of 3-12bar. The differential (cut-in/cut-out pressure swing) can be set as high as 45psi. The cheap ones on demand pumps might manage 15-20psi but with no guarantee it`ll be the same pressure every time

No major clogging issues with the netafims with RO water and bag filters. Any that do coke up get soaked in kettle descaler overnight but it doesn`t happen very often. The netafims come apart i don`t throw them away as its easy to clean or replace each part if need be.

I`ve attached a pic so you can see the various bits and how they fit together. The egg shaped piece is the adv, it opens at 58psi and closes at 26psi. The orange colored blind nozzle useful for blocking off any unwanted outlets.

 

[fatman7574]

Fatman
Thanks for the heads up on the bags i never thought of looking there. To tell you the truth i dont think trying to put misters with really fine droplet sizes will work that well in small tubes like you have for the simple reason there isnt alot of space in there for the mist to disperse. the misters i have are not 360 degree either thier only 120 degree and the mist goes down from the nozzel so in a small tube there just wouldnt be enough room imho.

http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8000-812-639.html this is the pump

http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=35&sort=2a&page=2
these are the selenoid valves. very cheap and are very reliable. you might have to step them up or down cause the smallest they come in are 3/4". they have a flow restricter built in but i never had to restict the flow when using them at 40-60psi.

the most nozzels i have run is 32 of the ones i linked to you before and i used a 40 gallon PT and a 1/2 HP jet pump that created 40-60 psi without any problems. the pumps are used for wells and sprinkler systems and whirlpools. those nozzels have a flow rate of 3/4GPH which with 54 nozzels would be approx. 40 GPH or .66 GPMinute. If you cycle the flow to 30 sec on every 3 minutes thats approx 17 cycles per hour which would use approx 34 gallons per hour. The shurflow pumps have low flows so thier not really going to work that well with those flow rates but there are other pumps that will work. I used jet pumps for those types of flows. even with a 40 gallon PT and those flows the pump would only kick in 2 times an hour four maybe 4 minutes.

It all comes down to matching the nozzels flow rate with your on/off cycle to the pressure tank capacity and then a pump that can pump x amount of gallons at the required pressure to pressurize the accumulator tank. Remember when sizing a pressure tank that if it says 40 gallon that doesnt mean it will give you 40 gallons of water. they have a drawdown capacity that is less than the total they have. My little tank only is 5 gallon with around 1 gallon drawdown-(that means usable amount of water before it has to be pumped back up by the pump). I can get away with this small tank because my nozzels on this app have very low flow rates and i only have 16 nozzels. i couldnt run 54 nozzels on this small tank.

It can be somewhat confusing and your right dont believe what they list as the pressure for those tanks. they list the max pressure not the safe operating pressure which is always less than the listed. But most pressure tanks are designed for well or RO systems and can handle 60psi. its only when trying to find a large tank with high pressures it becomes difficult and expensive.

There is no force what soever the mist just comes out of the nozzel. i can put my hand right against the nozzel and even at 95psi in the line there is no force to injure my hand or the roots for that matter. Although like i said before the mist needs room to disperse.
When i used the 3/4 gph nozzels i had them in 22 gallon containers (4 in each).

I dont have any experience with nozzels in that small of a space but if i was doing tubes with 40-60psi i would make it net pot then nozzel then net pot. because the nozzels are 360 degrees and could cover 2 netpots. one on each side. maybe this is how you have it now

Presently I have the misters under mediumpressure of 20 to 25 psi in between ecah pot so I would just drill those holes out larger for the higher pressure nozzles. I run a 3/4" distributer bar between each two pipes with 1/4 JG fittings and 1/4" tubing for each mister. There is aa bit of discharge after flow is stopped to the distru ibuter and that would likely increase with higher pressure I would imagine.

I am glad to hear the mist is not pacing and high pressure droplets with any force as my distance from mister to pot would only be three inches.

I take it would be a wiser choice to go with a greater pump duty cycle and a smaller accumulator tank than run the higher pressures with a larger tank just to decrease the duty cycle. The pumps are cheap enough that a bit of decreased life span would not be that bad.

I really am amazed that the roots can actually get by with so little misting. I hae benn literally drowning my roots in comparison to your spraying times and your evenconsidering cutting the flow by half of present flow.

I am likely running hotter temps (84-8, and also use CO2 so I likely have higher tranpiration rates proportionally but still 2 seconds every tow minutes. Would you change that to a misting every minute if the controller allowed it. I think I read that every two minutesis the most frequent span allowed by the misting controller. They seem a bit steeply priced with the 12 station being not that much more in cost than the single station controller, or did I just see prices on a starange site. It showed something like $500 for the single station and $600 for the twelve station controller.

The only item cost that really seems rough is the cost of a pressure relief valve that has no metal wetted parts. Still though they are not all that bad at about $155.

I figure the electricity savings between the high pressure acculalator tank system and the low pressure continous run pump system would be about 50% or $30 per month. The Iwaki pump retails for $300 and the Omron timer and solenoid would be reusable so the pay back period would only be about 30 months if only figuring in the electrical savings. The valves should all last longer than three years but the pumps I would be unsure of. Three years on an Iwaki RZ pump is about average with bearing seals usually being the only maintenance expense that ever comes up.

 

[Atomizer]

I really am amazed that the roots can actually get by with so little misting

One second using high pressure is quite a misting
A single nozzle can deliver in the region of a few hundred million droplets (5um-50um) per second using 1/5 of a teaspoonful of water.
If the root chamber is filled with mist in one second thats it..its full

 

[tree farmer]

The JG fittings are worth the money just for the convenience factor, you only have to buy them once as they`ll last forever.

I have most of the kit for the vertical, its just a case of finding the time to get hardware installed in the shed and the vertical installed in the greenhouse.. there`s always something more pressing on the wifes to-do list.

I bought an italian made external pressure switch with a working range of 3-12bar. The differential (cut-in/cut-out pressure swing) can be set as high as 45psi. The cheap ones on demand pumps might manage 15-20psi but with no guarantee it`ll be the same pressure every time

No major clogging issues with the netafims with RO water and bag filters. Any that do coke up get soaked in kettle descaler overnight but it doesn`t happen very often. The netafims come apart i don`t throw them away as its easy to clean or replace each part if need be.

I`ve attached a pic so you can see the various bits and how they fit together. The egg shaped piece is the adv, it opens at 58psi and closes at 26psi. The orange colored blind nozzle useful for blocking off any unwanted outlets.

Now i know what your talking about. ive seen those nozzel assembles before and i think they are a good choice for a big wide open chamber as the mist could come from 4 dirrections with one assembly. do they deliver the mist fine enough. just a quick google said around 85micron but i didnt spend alot of time looking maybe there is different models of those with different specs.

Well ive found out after a few days of monitoring ,that res temps dont correlate to root chamber temps like i had hoped. i remember you mentioning that in one of your posts. root zone only seems to stay 2-3 degrees below ambient temps even though the solution is being supplied at 68 degrees. the pods are insulated and i know from past experiences that the root zone stayed very close to solution temp but the difference i believe is before the flow was greater and thus cooled the chambers down and now the flow is very low with this mist and it has little effect on the root zone temps. i thought i would get some kind of evaporative effect similar to a swamp cooler but that doesnt seem to be the case. im thinking of some strategy to bring those root zone temps lower. i tryed just a small air pump pumping cool air from a 60 degree room but it didnt do anything. i know it would have to cool it down but i will need more airflow and im not quite sure how to do that. Do your root zone temps stay at solution temps. the res stays at a constant 65-68 degrees cause its in the ground. the accumulatoer tank is being replaced approx. every 15 minutes and has over 3 inches of insulation around it so it picks up very little heat before the nozzels. i was thinking of running a four inch line with a 4 inch inline fan from a 60 degree source and then break the 4 inch down into 4 one inch lines and put one in each chamber. each chamber is only approx. 4 cubic feet so a total of 16 cubic feet of space to exchange the air in shouldnt take long with a 150 cfm inline even broke down into 4 one inch lines. in theory it seems like it would work but i also dont know what effect that air exchange would have to the mist in the chambers. And i would have to have some way of controling the fan. Im thinking a temp sensor in one of the pods but then the sensor has to be water proof and somewhat accurate and i dont know how hard or expensive that probe would be. any suggestions on how to bring root zone temps down in the chambers. or is it really not necessary to have the root zone at approx 68 degrees.

 

[tree farmer]

Presently I have the misters under mediumpressure of 20 to 25 psi in between ecah pot so I would just drill those holes out larger for the higher pressure nozzles. I run a 3/4" distributer bar between each two pipes with 1/4 JG fittings and 1/4" tubing for each mister. There is aa bit of discharge after flow is stopped to the distru ibuter and that would likely increase with higher pressure I would imagine.

I am glad to hear the mist is not pacing and high pressure droplets with any force as my distance from mister to pot would only be three inches.

I take it would be a wiser choice to go with a greater pump duty cycle and a smaller accumulator tank than run the higher pressures with a larger tank just to decrease the duty cycle. The pumps are cheap enough that a bit of decreased life span would not be that bad.

I really am amazed that the roots can actually get by with so little misting. I hae benn literally drowning my roots in comparison to your spraying times and your evenconsidering cutting the flow by half of present flow.

I am likely running hotter temps (84-8, and also use CO2 so I likely have higher tranpiration rates proportionally but still 2 seconds every tow minutes. Would you change that to a misting every minute if the controller allowed it. I think I read that every two minutesis the most frequent span allowed by the misting controller. They seem a bit steeply priced with the 12 station being not that much more in cost than the single station controller, or did I just see prices on a starange site. It showed something like $500 for the single station and $600 for the twelve station controller.

The only item cost that really seems rough is the cost of a pressure relief valve that has no metal wetted parts. Still though they are not all that bad at about $155.

I figure the electricity savings between the high pressure acculalator tank system and the low pressure continous run pump system would be about 50% or $30 per month. The Iwaki pump retails for $300 and the Omron timer and solenoid would be reusable so the pay back period would only be about 30 months if only figuring in the electrical savings. The valves should all last longer than three years but the pumps I would be unsure of. Three years on an Iwaki RZ pump is about average with bearing seals usually being the only maintenance expense that ever comes up.

when i ran at 40-60 psi i ran 30 sec on 4 minutes off or 2 minutes off depending on the age of the ladies. When running with 60-80 micron droplets (like the nozzels i was using and linked for you) the system has more flow and the roots get wetter no matter how short the cyles are because 60-80 microns will just pool more than less than 50 will. although as i have said even less than 50micron will pool with a short cycle. so you have to take into consideration that fact when deceiding what cycle to run. as far as the mist controller i have i cant remember where or how much it cost because ive had it for years. if it is that expensive its way over priced because i have other timers that will do 1 sec intervals and use any voltage from0-240ac or even dc voltages that you can get for around 80 i believe. ill get a link to them but it will take me awhile to find them because i havent bought one in a long long time. dont tell anyone i said this and i dont recommend it but ive run the 40-60psi rigs without PRV. if you look thru this thread you will see how ive used a second pressure switch to act as a PRV on this app. which im ok with but when i find the right one i will install a PRV because these are some very high pressures and i dont always believe the manufactures ratings on everything. i always kept my accumulater tanks out of the room to keep them cool usually in a closet ,i guess out of sight out of mind. Maybe it wasnt the best thing to do but ive been in many houses that have well systems that run PT and very few have PRV installed. there acually not that expensive and not hard to find for anything under 100psi so they should be installed.

Aero (LPor HP)is suppose to try and let the roots breath some thats what gives it advantages over other hdro systems so a person should just supply what they need and then let them have air imho. so if able to control the cycle i would set it as low as i could and still provide them with what they need to feed. I bet those tubes do pretty well with a sog. i do think you could benifit from cycling and you sure could save on electric and wear and tear by using an accumulater tank. now i have cycled pumps 30 sec on 3 off before for long periods without any problems but it takes a little time for the pump to get up to pressure and then it continues misting for a bit after turning off. but i saw better results with the cycling than straight misting. i know others say they havent so each has to judge for themselves.

I would use a little larger tank if i could find one but at around 100psi there isnt many to be had larger than the one i have. for a little lower pressure they can be had in larger sizes. i did state that i have used some really large ones where the solution sat for long periods before being replaced and thought it caused me some caking issues in the plumbing and some decrease in production but i cant be certain it could be solely attributed to the larger PT and longer storage solution times.

 

[Atomizer]

I don`t worry too much about the chamber air temp tracking the room temp. If the room temp rises you`ll probably need to increase the misting cycles anyway due to the girls drinking more so its kind of self balancing.
A fan would work to bring chamber temps down but it would have to be a fairly gentle flow otherwise you risk drying the roots and swapping one problem for another To control the fan all you`d need is a thermostat with a remote sensor and a 30 second delay timer to kill the fan during and after the misting cycle..another job for a relay

According to the Netafim specs the nozzles generate 30-90μm at a pressure of 3-4 bars.
http://www.wilsonirr.com/downloads/netafim.pdf
On page 20 of the pdf there`s a graph of the 7.5LPH nozzle performance tested by CEMAGREF. I bought half a dozen to test and they generate a very nice mist at 6 bar.

If you dont need 4way nozzles you can get a single version. For bidirectional misting a 4way with 2 blind nozzles does the trick.

 

[tree farmer]

I don`t worry too much about the chamber air temp tracking the room temp. If the room temp rises you`ll probably need to increase the misting cycles anyway due to the girls drinking more so its kind of self balancing.
A fan would work to bring chamber temps down but it would have to be a fairly gentle flow otherwise you risk drying the roots and swapping one problem for another To control the fan all you`d need is a thermostat with a remote sensor and a 30 second delay timer to kill the fan during and after the misting cycle..another job for a relay

According to the Netafim specs the nozzles generate 30-90μm at a pressure of 3-4 bars.
http://www.wilsonirr.com/downloads/netafim.pdf
On page 20 of the pdf there`s a graph of the 7.5LPH nozzle performance tested by CEMAGREF. I bought half a dozen to test and they generate a very nice mist at 6 bar.

If you dont need 4way nozzles you can get a single version. For bidirectional misting a 4way with 2 blind nozzles does the trick.

Ya i think im going to wait and see if the root chamber temps become an issue. im sure once the tree shades the pod that will lower the temps some anyway and your probably right about having to increase the cycle as things progress.

Have you seen the atomix system (which now has went under) what do you think of these. Id like to buid one and have done some peliminary research for the nozzels and compressor needed. I guy did a couple runs that he documented at UK420 if you want to check it out. username was g-love. they showed some spectacular root development.

 

[tree farmer]

Fatman
http://www.iseincstore.com/422_Timer.aspx
heres a link to the timer. these can do any timing situation imaginable and very versitile. you do have to mount and wire the ends on but with the surface mount kit and directions its pretty easy. i just mount them in a pull box (a box electicians use to terminate cables into)you can get at any store like lowes or home depo for 8 bucks.

 

[Atomizer]

The atomix is a nice piece of kit. It sounds like the owners have sold the rights to a stateside company so it`ll probably be available sooner or later..along with a super high price tag
I believe pump based systems can do just as well with a short cycle timing. G-love found that overdoing the misting caused the fine root hairs to die back rapidly. He accidently tested the effects of a seriously hot root chamber when he placed a radiator too close to the compressors air intake

 

[tree farmer]

The atomix is a nice piece of kit. It sounds like the owners have sold the rights to a stateside company so it`ll probably be available sooner or later..along with a super high price tag
I believe pump based systems can do just as well with a short cycle timing. G-love found that overdoing the misting caused the fine root hairs to die back rapidly. He accidently tested the effects of a seriously hot root chamber when he placed a radiator too close to the compressors air intake

ya lve read his reports as i was doing research on the components for one of those. i do think they have some advantages in the way air can be moved around and manipulated somewhat easier that HP water. Ive found those nozzels but they are around $250 . Its the compressors that are so expensive.

I have my pump in a sound deadening box i built (2 layers sheetrock,plywood,insulation and sound deading foam.)an you can hardly hear it running but what makes noise is the transmission of the pulsating pump thru the intake hose that sucks the solution out of the rez. I tryed to use some more flexible hose instead of the more ridgid poly on there now but the pump just doesnt want to prime up with that softer hose. the hose doesnt collapse as the pump is trying to suck it up so i cant quit figure out why it wont prime with the flixible hose. the ridgid it will prime right up with though. any ideas why it wouldnt prime with flexible.

 

[Atomizer]

If the flexible has the same bore as the rigid i wouldn`t expect any difference. If it collapsed with the suction it would make sense as the pump inlet gets starved of water..but if it isnt collapsing thats out
Maybe the flexible pipe coupled with lifting from the buried res is pushing towards the pumps suction lift capacity?
The pump could be using some lift capacity trying to collapse the flexible pipe even though there isn`t any noticeably collapse. Having said that your hefty pump should have plenty of suction lift available. You could try adding a foot valve to see if that helps.
I use aquatec pumps which don`t have a have huge flowrate but are almost silent. Other pumps i`ve tried include an old shurflo that sounded like a bucket of bolts and a stainless steel jetpump that sounded..pretty much like a jet

 

[tree farmer]

Atomizer
When you say foot valve are you talking about a check valve. I dont know what your referring to with footvalve. i have a check valve on the output side of the pump to keep the line from going back thru the pump after it shuts off. do you mean try one on the inlet side also?

 

[Atomizer]

Most diaghragm pumps only allow flow one way and shouldn`t need a check valve, although the shurflo could be different
A foot valve works the same as a check except theres almost no cracking pressure. If you have a spare you could test it with a standard check valve. The downside is the pump will have to manage the cracking pressure to open it.

I`d be tempted to test the flexible hose with some positive head, a bucket of water located above the pump, and see if it primes ok with that.

 

[tree farmer]

Atomizer
I cant seem to get this thing to let me quote. When i click quote it tells me to log in and im already logged in , anyway im not sure if i need the check valve i just assumed since on the pumps specs it didnt say it had a builtin check valve i needed one and i have seen (builtin check valve) listed on other surflow diaphram pumps specs. I have never tested to see if the pump allows the line to flow back once pressurized but im definately going to check now that you mention it to see if it really needs the check valve. Also even if the pump doesnt allow flow backwards i wonder if it still isnt a good idea to keep the check valve there because with the check valve where it is(after the pump and filter, and before the pressure gauge and pressure switches) i can unhook the filter for cleaning or if need be do something to the pump, and the accumulator tank would remain pressurized thus the misting could continue uninterupted. i could even back the selenoid off times longer to extend the period if need be in an emergency to work on the pump or filter. I guess a regular shut off valve in the same position will accomplish the same thing. and i do have some JG quick connect shutoff valves.

I tryed the flex hose with a pail sitting at floor level to see if it would pick it up out of the pail (as there is about 1-1.5 ft difference in hieght from the res bottom to floor level) and it still wouldnt suck it up. i never tryed with something above the pump though. Anyway what i did was take the 1/2"poly tubing and stick it into the res thru some PVC 3/4" and then cut some neoprene collars to take the extra space up from the 1/2" poly to 3/4"PVC thus isolating the pulsating from transmitting thru the res lid and into the room structure. It really made a big difference

 

[Alaric]

The simple reason aero is the most effective method for growing plants is----increased dissolved oxygen.

The problem with most aero systems is limited root zone volume, ie; shallow chambers.

If your pump head pressure is adequate to create a "mist" using whatever method-----in ample root space----stand back and watch the explosion of growth.

Yea,yea,yea-----everything else has to be in bounds.

Alaric

 

[tree farmer]

Alaric

Yea ive seen what just a spray ( not mist ) can do with just one plant in a 22 gallon cantainer. these are 22"x 22" by 14 " deep. im not sure if thats going to be enough space since this is a mist and not a spray but im sure there is enough room for at least a shrub if not a tree.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi TF
Glad to hear you got the pulsation issue fixed and everything running quiet. Putting basic shut off`s at strategic points in the plumbing will make maintenance easier. Your 4 nozzles arranged equally around a single tree root should do a good job of distributing the mist. Multiple plant sites just need reasonable spacing as the roots don`t fill out too much near the top theres plenty of gap for the mist to get through. As for maximum chamber depth.. the roots will hit the floor no matter what it is

 

[tree farmer]

Hey atomizer
Yea ive always tryed to think of ways to keep the roots off the bottom but i think even if you had 10 feet of vertical space they would go to the bottom anyway. when i used flat bottom containers running at lower pressures i use to put a screen about 2 inches off the bottom of the chamber and cover the screen with silk screen. it worked great. the roots would never grow thru the silk screen . it kept the roots from soaking in between misting cycles because it allowed the roots to stay out of the runoff. of coarse using the larger droplet spays the roots would mat up. i always hated how a little bit of solution sat in the bottom of the containers thats why i wanted something that would drain completely. (thats why i like the sinks).

One thing with this system there is alot of media because of the 10inch net pots. all that media(hydroton) seems to hold alot of moisture. im at 2 sec every 6 minutes and everything is going great im even tempted to try more off time. theres just a bit of fuzz outside the nets.


anyway i read that in the atomix they recommended a spreader mat on the chamber floor and i had thought of trying that with these but where i live its hard to get that stuff. what do you think about the spreader mat idea in the chamber floor?

 

[Atomizer]

Spreader mat is marvellous stuff. Using it on the floor of the chamber should help generate a more even rootmat, i guess waterlogging may be an issue if it gets too dense.
I tested spreader mat supported by plastic mesh to encourage roots to grow down a slope as i need to generate airspace for the mist between the vertical wall and the main rootmass.
It may distribute the root area more effectively for a single plant per container. Imagine the roots growing down/around a gentle (spiral?) slope and eventually cascading over each side. They will grow through the spreader mat/mesh and into the void below.
The result would be a chamber filled with mostly suspended roots and plenty of space for mist to circulate versus a single drop root column and a whole heap of roots laying on the floor of the chamber
I guess its something along the lines of scrog but for roots

 

[tree farmer]

Spreader mat is marvellous stuff. Using it on the floor of the chamber should help generate a more even rootmat, i guess waterlogging may be an issue if it gets too dense.
I tested spreader mat supported by plastic mesh to encourage roots to grow down a slope as i need to generate airspace for the mist between the vertical wall and the main rootmass.
It may distribute the root area more effectively for a single plant per container. Imagine the roots growing down/around a gentle (spiral?) slope and eventually cascading over each side. They will grow through the spreader mat/mesh and into the void below.
The result would be a chamber filled with mostly suspended roots and plenty of space for mist to circulate versus a single drop root column and a whole heap of roots laying on the floor of the chamber
I guess its something along the lines of scrog but for roots

if i can get my hands on some mat i think ill try it in one and see if it makes a difference. the whole idea of scrogging the roots has always been something ive thought about but havent come up with any real good solutions. the idea of having the roots go down a slope is interesting but im not sure i understand what your saying completely. if you made some sort of cone from the bottom of the net pot to the floor the roots would follow it down but you would have a void inside the cone. Would the mist outside be able to penetrate thru the roots as they developed into that void behind the slope leading to the chamber floor?

Ive thought about having layers in the chamber where the roots could grow down from the net pots to lets say 4 inches then have a screen almost the size of the chamber so the roots would fill the screen then drop over the edges on to the next screen below it (lets say another 4 inches down) and continue this layering to the chamber floor. the problem i see though is a person would have to have misters on each layer going down as i dont know if mist from above on nthe top layer would be able to penetrate thru the sucessive layers
going down to the floor. i dont know if that makes sense but maybe its kind of what your trying to explain.

I couldnt do that really in these chambers because the large net pots drop down pretty far into the chambers. i know from using the 22 gallon flat bottoms that even large trees just dropped to the container floor and layered there. now from looking at g-loves pics his roots seemed to fluf out into the chamber void even though they did fill up the chamber floor also. im hoping that will happen somewhat. what do you think the effective penetration of mist is? do you think it could penetrate a 2 inch thick layer of roots on the chamber floor cause i know thats what trees in Lp aero generated.(as far as thickness of the root mass on the chamber floor goes) i guess its just going to be a" play it as it goes kind of thing." i think its best to keep things smaller first to see how things play out in the chambers. there might be a reason ive never seen a large girl with a true HP aero.