MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[Atomizer]

if you made some sort of cone from the bottom of the net pot to the floor the roots would follow it down but you would have a void inside the cone.

How about a very shallow mesh cone located in just the upper part of the chamber? Ideally the mist would need to be inside/under the cone. The roots will spread out and cover the top surface of the cone mesh and also hopefully grow down "en mass" to the chamber floor.
The perfect outcome would be a complete column of suspended roots covering the same area as the diameter of the cone base. There should be plenty of open spaces within the distributed rootmass for the mist to penetrate.
In the early stages the mist will be able to fire through the cone mesh..at least until the roots have completely covered it.
1/4" x 1/4" stainless steel mesh would be a good material for the cone.
At the end of the grow just cut the bulk of the roots away and throw the cone into an incinerator. The roots burn to ash and the mesh is sterilized by fire

Anything on the floor of the chamber is likely to get a surface misting and the rest mostly runoff and perhaps any larger droplets that fall rapidly. If the rootmat is fairly open it will penetrate but that wouldn`t be for very long with a tree

 

[tree farmer]

How about a very shallow mesh cone located in just the upper part of the chamber? Ideally the mist would need to be inside/under the cone. The roots will spread out and cover the top surface of the cone mesh and also hopefully grow down "en mass" to the chamber floor.
The perfect outcome would be a complete column of suspended roots covering the same area as the diameter of the cone base. There should be plenty of open spaces within the distributed rootmass for the mist to penetrate.
In the early stages the mist will be able to fire through the cone mesh..at least until the roots have completely covered it.
1/4" x 1/4" stainless steel mesh would be a good material for the cone.
At the end of the grow just cut the bulk of the roots away and throw the cone into an incinerator. The roots burn to ash and the mesh is sterilized by fire

Anything on the floor of the chamber is likely to get a surface misting and the rest mostly runoff and perhaps any larger droplets that fall rapidly. If the rootmat is fairly open it will penetrate but that wouldn`t be for very long with a tree

thats a very interesting idea that id like to try. i wont be able to try it right away but i do think that with the flexible tubing and the JG quick connects the nozzels could be changed around to accomadate some concept like that without to much modifying.

maybe seperate the chamber with the shallow cone SS mesh but dont let it go completely to the edge of the chamber leave maybe 2 inches from the edge of the chamber . (thats in reference to the base of the SS mesh cone.) keep 2 nozzels above firing downward so the mist would fill the upper void and initially could go thru the screen until the mat got to thick . and then put 2 nozzels below firing into the void thus misting the roots that come thru and hang into the void and also misting the roots laying on the chamber floor. it would effectively give you twice the floor area for roots to spread out onto, and like you said hopefully create alot off suspended roots hanging from the top mesh cone that are being misted in the void. I can see already that its going to get crazy in the root zone.

You said anything on the chamber floor is likely to get a surface misting and the rest mostly runoff. im assuming that these roots under the surface layer getting the mist will turn into effectively NFT type roots. What my concerns are is that unlike the LP aero i used with higher water flow rates this system wont have enough runoff to support those roots that are lying under the surface layer being misted. of coarse i could increase the misting to ensure adequate runoff to these roots but that would effectively kill the delicate root hairs a person wants to create above in the chambers. maybe the roots will only mat so much on the floor because they seek moisture and they wont grow towards where there isnt any moisture.

I wanted to ask you if you thought i could use a brass pressure relief vavle on a low part of the pressurized line and put a check valve before it. I thought this would keep only the solution that was between the PRV and the check valve in contact with the nutrient solution and this solution could never go into the system because its facing down and trapped by the check valve. And if i put it facing down on a low part of the line i could just drain that little bit out every time i changed solution. Im thinking this way would keep any solution that has come in contact with the brass from entering into the system
why this, its because im tired of trying to find one that is SS or plastic that doesnt cost so dam much.

 

[Atomizer]

I don`t see any issues with using a brass PRV after a check valve, definitely cheaper
I wouldn`t alter the misting cycle just to accomodate the rootmat on the floor. The ideal solution would be to run a dedicated nft flow solely for the floor rootmat once its established.
At that point you`d have two distinct root zone types that are essentially seperate. It makes good sense to use the most efficient irrigation method for each type and theres no chance of one adversely affecting the other

 

[tree farmer]

Yea thats what im going to do with the PRV situation cause i can get an adjustable one local for $25 and then i think ill bump the pressure in the system to 80-100psi as ill feel better knowing i have the second pressure switch and the PRV in case something happened.

Well i found out from close examination the my selenoid valve bleeds 1-2psi between misting cycles. It actually was bleeding more when i discoverd it but then i cranked the flow resticter down some more and got it to only let the 1-2psi thru between misting cycles of 4 off and 2 sec on. I can get it to stop bleeding anything but then the flow is to restricted to deliver an adequate amount of solution for the nozzels to give a nice mist.I dont like that so it looks like im going to have to find a different type of selenoid without the flow restricter on it because i hate wasting that psi as it shortens the lenght of time it takes for the pump to come on. i also found out that when the pump cuts off the whole system will go down 2-3 psi from where the pump cut off at. i put shutoff valves before the selenoid and before the check vavle to rule out them leaking a little by after pump cut off. i have not one drop of water anywhere and am somewhat perplexed as to where those 2-3 psi go. im wondering if that is just the gauge settling in or if the poly tubing absorbs those couple of psi or what. have you ever noticed this on a system before cause i never have but then again ive never run these pressures before. i just hope if i get a half inch selenoid without the flow restricter (there is a 3/4 one on there now stepped down to 1/2 ") that i dont run into the problem of the pressure switch momentarly closing like before. i guess if that happens ill have to adjust the differential between the cuton and the cutoff settings. (narrow it) Do you think ill have any problems with the 1/2 " selinoid? Alot of little tweaks to get everything just right it seems. But that is with any new system.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi TF
A 1/2" solenoid will be ok. Wouldn`t worry about the 2-3psi drop. The dynamic pump pressure will be a little higher than the static system pressure. When the pump stops pushing, the pressure in the system redistributes to find its balance point.

 

[fatman7574]

Have either of you tried working togeter an aeromister systems such as the atmix with an air atomizer. Delavan Industrial supply in the UK sells world wide and likely they even produce the atomix atomizer for them. I very much doubt that atomix got an exclusive on the atomizer but just got a trade mark registration on the name. I sent an email off to their U.S. North Carolina office to see what they have to say about providing comprable atomizers.

Delavan under their PDF on Swirl-Air nozzles have a good chart on water particle sizes showing a nozzle that looks like it will fill the bill without extrememely high pressures. About 2.75 bar with 50 micron and smaller with 7.5 liters per minute. The nozzle # 31618 or 32555. I am quite sure a good system could be put to gether for a lot less than the over $3000 US dollars (plus over seas shipping) charged for an Atomix.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi
Even a homebrew is out of my price range The silent compressor is the biggest cost with the nozzles running a close second.
The mean flow versus droplet size graphs for the swirl-air nozzles are quite interesting.
The 31618 or 32555 nozzles deliver 50 micron average droplets at 40psi with a liquid flowrate of 2gpm (7.5lpm). The 31693 or 32668 nozzles are looking better at 30psi pressure with 0.5gpm (1.9lpm) liquid flow.
As a comparison the nozzles i use deliver 0.022gpm at 60psi, i`d have to run 23 nozzles to equal the liquid delivery of one swirl-air with a 1 second pulse.
To my mind, if you can generate the correct droplet sizes the plants won`t mind if you used a compressor or a water pump

 

[Treeth]

im into those delevan nozzles too...

the AL-90 is my favorite.
I was quoted for one, a brass iteration, for 600$... a production run of 1 for me at the closest shop which holds Delevan's designs.

Atomizer,
apparently one nozzle is enough flow to adequately wet a given reservoir, which answers my first question is-one-enough;
My second though is whether stainless example is worth 400 more, making a 1000$ nozzle?

and Tree Farmer,

you found the 'atomix' nozzle supplier? Please share!


- I love you guys,
great thread.

 

[fatman7574]

The compressors are simple in the states. They are really just small refrigeration compressors. Hell you can buy a half horse power window air conditioner brand new for $100. All the other controls are readily avilable and cheap. I am sure delevan has many more atomizers that they list on line. I have not yet been steered to any atomizers putting out a consistent 50 microns and smaller at reasonable pressures yet. 75 psi is just not reaonable. If I could obtain atomix atomizers at a fair price I could definitely see building a homebrew atomix over a high pressure water mister. As the economics of expansion of the atomix would trump the costs of several high pressure water systems. The only advantage I see to the home brew high pressure water system is the cheap misters used. The atomix air atomisers would eliminate the need for the high pressure pump(s) and high pressure, plastic lined accumalator tank(s) and basically cut the system down to a few solenoids at fairly low pressure requirements and a pressure reducer valve, pressure switch and presurre relief that could made of about any metal as they would be non wetted. The only real stumbling block seems to be the atomizer. Like said though. If you know who the atomix atomizer supplier is please share.

I am aware that there are misters available with outputs in the range you use. http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=558 Or even ones with less emitted (0.18 at 80 to100 psi): http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=123 But for me with a larger system in SOG an air atomised would be more economical and eaiser maintained if the atomizers could be bought at a fair price.

 

[Atomizer]

Atomizer,
apparently one nozzle is enough flow to adequately wet a given reservoir, which answers my first question is-one-enough;
My second though is whether stainless example is worth 400 more, making a 1000$ nozzle?

The Atomix uses two nozzles for a 1m x 1m x 400mm deep chamber. I recall they introduced a larger chamber 1.7m x 1.2m i`m guessing they used two for that as well.

I`m not clued up on compressors but i guess the air quality would need to be up to scratch with no contaminants.
The atomix website used to list what size/number of systems each bambi compressor model could run.

These nozzles look very similar and are coded "X" maybe the system name is derived from a nozzle code
http://www.icsindustrialservices.co.uk/air-atomising

 

[tree farmer]

im into those delevan nozzles too...

the AL-90 is my favorite.
I was quoted for one, a brass iteration, for 600$... a production run of 1 for me at the closest shop which holds Delevan's designs.

Atomizer,
apparently one nozzle is enough flow to adequately wet a given reservoir, which answers my first question is-one-enough;
My second though is whether stainless example is worth 400 more, making a 1000$ nozzle?

and Tree Farmer,

you found the 'atomix' nozzle supplier? Please share!


- I love you guys,
great thread.

I dont know who there supplier is i just know from studying these nozzels and talking to tech people who sell them its not hard to get a nozzel to do what the atomix nozzels do. they are basically a external mix siphon air atomizing nozzel with a cleanout button option(which by the way i read dont work that well) on them. These nozzels have a vast range of options to make them do almost any size droplet at any flow rate at any flow pattern. On good nozzels you can control the liquid pressure and the air pressure and another line thats called the fan air. Varying these can produce a large array of different outcomes. These types of nozzels are used in industrial apps so they make them to do almost anything. you have to do alittle studying to be able to understand these things when talking to the suppliers cause of all the different options they come in. but they will sell them to you. if you do a search "air atomizing nozzels" you will come up with a few different companies. they have some very good litature on thier web pages to figure out what your after.

 

[tree farmer]

The compressors are simple in the states. They are really just small refrigeration compressors. Hell you can buy a half horse power window air conditioner brand new for $100. All the other controls are readily avilable and cheap. I am sure delevan has many more atomizers that they list on line. I have not yet been steered to any atomizers putting out a consistent 50 microns and smaller at reasonable pressures yet. 75 psi is just not reaonable. If I could obtain atomix atomizers at a fair price I could definitely see building a homebrew atomix over a high pressure water mister. As the economics of expansion of the atomix would trump the costs of several high pressure water systems. The only advantage I see to the home brew high pressure water system is the cheap misters used. The atomix air atomisers would eliminate the need for the high pressure pump(s) and high pressure, plastic lined accumalator tank(s) and basically cut the system down to a few solenoids at fairly low pressure requirements and a pressure reducer valve, pressure switch and presurre relief that could made of about any metal as they would be non wetted. The only real stumbling block seems to be the atomizer. Like said though. If you know who the atomix atomizer supplier is please share.

I am aware that there are misters available with outputs in the range you use. http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=558 Or even ones with less emitted (0.18 at 80 to100 psi): http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=123 But for me with a larger system in SOG an air atomised would be more economical and eaiser maintained if the atomizers could be bought at a fair price.

I dont know enough about compressors to take an AC and turn it into a air compressor but if you can do that then the nozzels can be had from 200-600 depending on how much control you want over the spray characteristics. the compressors like atomix used run into the thousands of dollars when running 8-10 nozzels. that is why i went with this system. i do hope to still buid 4 pods with air atomizing nozzels and then id use this system for veg. I dont think its much of an issue with air pressures being 100-150psi. that type of pressure seems to be common with air. these nozzels run in the lower ranges from what ive read. the people running the atomix were in the 30-40psi range but thier compressors were charging the tanks to 100psi or slightly more. i do think your right in that these system could be built with more readily available parts but i dont know if it would be much cheaper.

 

[tree farmer]

Hey atomizer
Do you have any baseline EC and PH levels for these HP systems. Even an educated guess as to what to start and finish with. G-love said he was in the .4-.6 EC range and 5.8-6.4PH range. i know enviro conditions and genetec will play a part but a guy has to start somewhere. Have you noticed that they require lower EC levels in these systems compared to traditional LP areo.

 

[Atomizer]

I use RO with canna hydro nutes, no additives and run between EC 0.4 - 1.0, the PH drifts 5.6-6.2
As you say, you`ll probably have to modify for strain, water quality (tapwater) and the brand of nutes. Even growing trees could make a difference. With anything new the safe bet is to start low, watch the plants and go from there.

 

[tree farmer]

I use RO with canna hydro nutes, no additives and run between EC 0.4 - 1.0, the PH drifts 5.6-6.2
As you say, you`ll probably have to modify for strain, water quality (tapwater) and the brand of nutes. Even growing trees could make a difference. With anything new the safe bet is to start low, watch the plants and go from there.

I wish i had some canna nutes. thats what id like to run but they cant be had locally. Using my trusted GH. Ive had some issues with GH but always seem to get it sorted out after a little trial and error. one thing i do not like is the staining GH nutes produce. I use to run my LP aeros at lower PH's 5.2-6 and really had good luck with that but im going with alittle higher on this at first.
I never really noticed much difference in feeding trees compared to what i saw others feeding smaller ones. i always stayed in the 300-1300ppm range with LP aero trees. do you run the aqua or substra?

I think im also going to change from sucking out of the buried rez to a container thats at ground level in another room and then collect the runoff in the buried rez and pump it back into the container every so often. I think i made somewhat of a mistake by using a cooler in the ground rez. it seems to hold the heat in from the return and not dissipate it into the surrounding ground. Ive buried containers before but never a cooler. Ive had to use heaters though before in the winter or the solution would get to cold with uninsulated containers so i thought the cooler would solve that. Maybe when it gets colder the cooler will turn out to have been a good choice. Im going to put some pipe insulation around the return hose and the short line from the res to the pump and see if the return wont pick up as much heat as it moves thru the system. Its not bad now really. it stays at 69 degrees but im running the room ambient a little cooler than id like just to keep the solution under 70 degrees.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi TF
Its the canna hydro vega/flores range, softwater version.
If you could find an uninsulated container the same size you`d have the option of swapping them over in summer and winter. Insulating the pipework should help, maybe wrap aluminium foil tape over the top to stop radiant heat getting to it.

 

[tree farmer]

Hi TF
Its the canna hydro vega/flores range, softwater version.
If you could find an uninsulated container the same size you`d have the option of swapping them over in summer and winter. Insulating the pipework should help, maybe wrap aluminium foil tape over the top to stop radiant heat getting to it.

thats a good idea about swapping them but it might be hard to find a container long and narrow like a cooler , ill defiently keep my eye out while shopping. I could also make one to fit with a little work. I only do one or 2 runs a year thats enough to last all year for me. Anyway i thought "let me just take the lid off the cooler and then the solution could be at least exposed to the cooler air down there. Well i was happy to see that in 12 hrs the solution dropped 3 degrees to 66.5 degrees. I think just leaving the cover off might do the trick. there is another lid that seperates the cooler rez from the room, just to clarify. Fuzz is exploding (hit the floor in 2 days)but having some issues getting EC levels right or correcting cal-mag def. might try lowering ph but like to only try one thing at a time otherwise you dont know what really worked. I can tell the systems going to be a racehorse once dialed in.

 

[tree farmer]

hey atomizer

Is the canna flores a 2 part nute. where you have to add the grow and the bloom. And do you follow the recommended ratio. I know you adjust the ec but im talking about the ratio between the the two parts (veg&bloom). Or is it just a one part nute where you just add the veg for veg and the bloom for flower.

 

[fatman7574]

I really do not know why so many growers on these forum sites by grossly over priced nutrient concentrates. Sure not a lot of people have the ISE meters or a spectrophotomer to do an anlysis of specific brand and type of nutrient formulation, however most of those analysis are already avilable on line on one forum or another. My self as the equipment is needed in my profession and reef keeping hobby/business I already have the test equipment. I also work at a university so have a few friends that can do the more exotic tests I can not do. I did get lazy and bought some nutrient formulation hardware though. If you need a formulation made up based on an analyisis of a formula you wish to produce for your own use I can give you a formula if you have the analyiis or no the ppm you wish to use. The concentrate can be at what ever you wish up to the level of saturation/precipitation. I have analysis data for products from: Genearl Hydro, Genisis, Dutch Nutrient, Techna Flora, Gen-X, Holland Secret, Hydrofarm and Genesis. A few others but I do not wish to list the names. I do not have analysis on any Canna product yet. They do divulge their ingrediants online but I have neverseen or run an aalysis on any of their products as I have not bought any yet. I know I spend less than $1 per gallon mixing up two part concentrates at 100X. That means my per gallon cost of RODI water I use to mix up my nutrient water actually cost mis higher than the nutrients used per gallon.

Thank you very much for the ICS atomizer link. I think they have just what I need. Now to check the prices. I hate checking prices. I always feel raped these days by the absurd prices everyone charges for just about everything.

 

[fatman7574]

A new cheap inline canister type mesh filter on eBat at make an offer. http://cgi.ebay.com/SPRAYING-SYSTEMS-122-PP-T-STYLE-PLASTIC-VALVES-CS-30_W0QQitemZ300358904500QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45eec92ab4

Here is the description by the manafacturer.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkw4gIeBKi0MBUtlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZmQ3bmgyBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4MjNfMTM4/SIG=11vtdc8sj/EXP=1256288928/**http://www.spraying.pl/broszury/pdf/c35.pdf 122-PP page #4 As can be seen the filter inserts are available in meshs down to 200 micron.