Who wants bigger gov't??? Please help me understand liberals.

[Hydrolicious]

Hi Kappainf....

Let me start out by saying that I registered on this site so I could post this lol.
I stumbled on this post because I was searching for tips on cloning Reserva Privada OG Kush. There was a thread where you said you had difficulty too, so I searched your recent posts. I discovered many of your threads that indicate a "conservative" stance. This one stood out since you asked about understanding liberals....

As you may have guessed, I am a liberal. (surprise! lol) My opinions are mostly based on my own reading, experience, and understanding. Some parts of this may come off as combative- but this is not my intent. Sometimes making my case requires tearing yours apart for the sake of debate. I have tried to keep it civil, though. I hope I was sucessful... lol so anyways here goes....

Its my opinion that conservative media (cough FOX cough) tend to skew the facts in such a way as to divert attention from real issues(and no I'm not talking about global warming lol).

Case in point- your question states "Who wants bigger government?". I see that as a loaded question.
I do not think democrats or liberals wake up every morning with the goal and purpose of growing government. If the media you watch did not constantly toss that buzzword around then you might be asking a more constructive question like "Who agrees with gov't involvement in healthcare and why?". (no offense to you, btw)


95% of Republican/conservative arguments are based on the assumption that:

1 Government cant do anything right.
2 Anything that negatively affects business or profit is bad (regulation is bad)
3 Taxes are too high on the wealthy.



IMHO, #1 is just plain wrong. A politician trying to convince me that no politician could do anything right is simply undermining the process. To him I say: "So you're telling me no goal can be achieved unless said goal is a side effect of motivation for profit? If you cannot do it right, I will vote for someone who can! How's that for motivation?"

Onto #2... I think business is great but it is not all that is important in this world. Just like citizens need police, businesses need police, too. The "free markets" that Republicans push for simply amounts to economical anarchy. As we all know- in an anarchy, the strong will consume the weak. Virtually anyone would agree that monopolies hurt civilization- or that toxic waste should not be dumped into our lakes- even if it IS more profitable to do so. We NEED rules in place to keep corporations and the people that run them from gaming the system. Yes, regulation is GOOD (though it CAN be bad... see # 1 above, lol)

The economy is a game where everyone competes for money. Money is power. There is only one entity that can overrule that power: GOVERNMENT. This brings me to my last point...


#3. GET YOUR HANDS OUTTA MY POCKETS, HIPPIE!!!!! lol
I have heard over and over again conservatives complain about how the progressive tax is not fair, and how the wealthy get robbed for being successful.... yadda yadda yadda.
The guy making my Big Mac puts in more "work per dollar" than the CEO of McDonalds does. I dont see it as reasonable to tax both thier incomes the same rate. The CEO has "earned"(<- yeah those are quotation marks lol) the entire MONTHS WAGE of the burger flipper IN THE FIVE MINUTES HE TAKES TO GET A MORNING COFFEE


So to summarize, Republicans want to convince you that:
#1 The only entity that can keep the wealthy in check should be effectively nuetered- thereby nuetering your VOTE
(yes, your vote matters despite people trying to convince you it doesnt. If there were a legal way for the wealthy to BUY your vote they would GLADLY... oh wait they do its called FOX NEWS. lol I cracked myself up on that one)

#2 Businesses will keep themselves in check(this sentiment is plain WRONG by any measure) and government should just get out of the way(nueter).

#3 Government punishes our "best and brightest", who are simply being robbed blind by unfair taxes.


Just WHO exatly do republicans represent? Certainly not ME!

Give me:
EFFECTIVE government
TRANSPARENT government
EFFICIENT government (YES its possible if we stop wasting time debating if its possible)
PROACTIVE government

NOT less government- (improve efficiency- dont reduce effectiveness or scope)
if its broke, FIX IT!
DONT throw your hands up and throw it away....


P.S. any tips on cloning OG Kush from Reserva Privada? All other strains clone easy but this one is a major pain in the arse...

 

[Cloud City]

Excellent post Hydrolicious! I feel the current Republican party represents their own self interests before the good of the country. It seems nowadays all Republicans stand for is waste, fraud, and abuse.




As for cloning that difficult plant try taking a few cuttings and letting them sit in cool water for 24 - 48 hrs then put them in dirt or whatever substrate you normally use until they're rooted.

 

[kappainf]

I don't know the OG just takes more time i guess. I don't like gov't. and I don't understand why people, unless they are politicians or work for the gov't, have so much faith and trust in the gov't or politicians. The largest problems in our country have largely been created by the gov't. What makes you think gov't is the answer? I'm not a republican. "toxic waste in our lakes," what? Taxes should be low for everyone. I could go on, but whats the point, Oblabla is fixing everything and if he doesn't, oh well, it all george bushes fault, blah blah blah. At least the US dollar is rising right? Unemployment has improved vastly. It's all uphill from here.

 

[ancap]

Hydrolicious,

Any organization that gets funded regardless of results and is several steps removed from their customers simply cannot perform efficiently. It cannot happen. It's like trying to add 3 + 3 to get 7. Try as hard as you can, it just is not in the realm of possibility. Marry that idea with the fact that governments fund themselves through violent force, and it becomes mind bending to me why anyone supports ANY operation of the government.... but I'm just an anarchist.

 

[undertheice]

....but, frankly, i'm too high to care.

#1 is just plain wrong. A politician trying to convince me that no politician could do anything right is simply undermining the process. To him I say: "So you're telling me no goal can be achieved unless said goal is a side effect of motivation for profit? If you cannot do it right, I will vote for someone who can! How's that for motivation?"

the lie of the ballot box has done more damage than all the robber barons, avaricious ceos and negligent cfos combined. the lie of the ballot box allows the mob to delude itself into thinking they have some control over their elected representatives, when it is the mob that is used for the ends of their masters. the mob can be an ignorant creature, pushed this way and that by the desires of the few, and it is the power of that creature that fuels the engine of politics. the lie of the ballot box is the tool that allows the few to take the power of the mob and use it to shape the destiny of a nation for their own profit.

there is profit in everything. the profit of business is the mean power of monetary gain, the power of charity is the enlightening power over self, and the profit of politics is the power over others. in each endeavor, whatever the goal, the motivation is profit and the pursuit of power.

#2... I think business is great but it is not all that is important in this world. Just like citizens need police, businesses need police, too. The "free markets" that Republicans push for simply amounts to economical anarchy.

The economy is a game where everyone competes for money. Money is power. There is only one entity that can overrule that power: GOVERNMENT.

capitalism is anarchy. in its purest form, capitalism places the control of a nation's wealth in the hands of the people (all the people) and says, "do what you will". it allows the strong and the determined to prosper, often at the expense of the weak and the indolent. there is no doubt that the regulation of the market is required to ensure that the rights of the citizens are not abused, even those citizens too apathetic to strive to better their lot. minimal regulation, honestly and equitably applied, is one of government's few real duties, but the honesty has long since fled from government circles and equity has taken a back seat to agenda driven politics and the necessities of re-election campaigning and fund raising.

yes, money is a representation of power. it is power of the most egalitarian kind. it serves to allow us to survive and affords us the comforts of life, but it is a limited form of power. it takes a great deal of that money power to afford one real power, the power over other men's lives. this is the power that we hand to government, the power that they seem willing to sell to the wealthy. the price for our stolen power is even greater and more wide spread control. allowing government too much control over the marketplace enables those political animals to play both sides of the game.

#3. GET YOUR HANDS OUTTA MY POCKETS, HIPPIE!!!!!
The guy making my Big Mac puts in more "work per dollar" than the CEO of McDonalds does. I don't see it as reasonable to tax both their incomes the same rate.

not all "work" is equal. risk, responsibility, talent and knowledge increase the value of work. what investment has the burger flipper made? the ceo has invested his time and finances into attaining his position, the burger flipper has invested only the effort of filling out an application. the talent and knowledge required to flip that burger are negligible, he has no responsibilities other than showing up for work on time and not spitting on the food too much, he risks only the occasional burned finger when he falls asleep at the grill. the ceo risks so much more, his reputation and all that he has invested in the company. he is responsible for the health of the company and the welfare of his employees and his talents and knowledge must far surpass those of the burger flipper or he could not effectively perform his duties. why shouldn't we consider his work more important than the work of the burger flipper?

the idea that all work is of equal importance is a concept forwarded to give the mob the feeling that their contributions to society carry a weight equal to the contributions of the more industrious and profitable members of the community. it is a concept designed to garner support for the political animals that cater to the desires of the mob, a feel good notion that allows the successful to be scapegoated and blamed for the failures of the political elite.

Give me:
EFFECTIVE government
TRANSPARENT government
EFFICIENT government (YES its possible if we stop wasting time debating if its possible)
PROACTIVE government
NOT less government- (improve efficiency- don't reduce effectiveness or scope)
if its broke, FIX IT!
DON'T throw your hands up and throw it away....

we would all like an effective government and that means a government that meddles as little as possible to reach the desired goal. we would all like a transparent government, but we have allowed a curtain to be drawn across the workings of the few and they hold tight to the drawstrings. we would all like an efficient government, a streamlined version of the massive bureaucracy we have permitted our government to become. the debates are necessary, but the petty bickering and partisan posing are all for show, a show designed to convince the mob that their best interests are being served and that these political animals are actually concerned with the well-being of the people. we would all like a proactive government, but how far does that go? we have reached a point where legislation is based on the worst case scenario for all things and created a nanny state that restricts everything we do. the insanity of mj prohibition is an obvious example, but the coddling of special interest groups and anyone with a grudge has led to an ever more intrusive government and the limitation of even our most rudimentary liberties. the scope of government is already too wide and the only way to fix it is to tear some of it down.

the same thing you say of government might be said of our limited free market, "if it's broke, fix it." government bail outs and take overs are the destruction of the free market. we are taking the engine of one of this world's most successful societies and throwing it away because mistakes have been made and abuses have occurred. unwilling to endure the pains of the natural ups and downs of a free economy, we seem perfectly willing to erase two centuries of accomplishment and place a major potion of that economy in the hands of an admittedly corrupt bureaucracy that knows only force as the engine of change. we are throwing up our hands and declaring that liberty is not worth the effort.

 

[CrackerJax]

Note to all Lib's.

Simply post ur proof that govt. is efficient.

Post anything at all that the govt. does well and better than the private sector.

Name them......please.


Lib's just don't understand human nature or economics. It all looks good on paper, but once in the real world, lib policies quickly fall apart.

 

[doc111]

Note to all Lib's.

Simply post ur proof that govt. is efficient.

Post anything at all that the govt. does well and better than the private sector.

Name them......please.


Lib's just don't understand human nature or economics. It all looks good on paper, but once in the real world, lib policies quickly fall apart.

I've been asking libs to post things the gov does well in my thread. They just repeatedly ignore me and start name calling. If the gov was so great they could throw up some examples but we know the truth....the gov does few things, if anything, well.

 

[CrackerJax]

I've got a few statistics.... I can throw them up...

It doesn't help their illogical fantasy tho...

 

[londonfog]

Note to all Lib's.

Simply post ur proof that govt. is efficient.

Post anything at all that the govt. does well and better than the private sector.

Name them......please.


Lib's just don't understand human nature or economics. It all looks good on paper, but once in the real world, lib policies quickly fall apart.

Post Office...Free public libraries ...free school lunches ....what private sector would do thoses for free or cheaper ..If you can answer that for all three.

 

[londonfog]

and forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't spending and government get bigger when Bush got in office ???

 

[CrackerJax]

That's great till you look at the ledgers of ALL those programs.

You only see the benefit, not the cost.... I'm shocked!!

Anyone else care to try?? London failed....


C'mon...name some efficient programs.

 

[londonfog]

Cracker you never told us which private sector would do a better job.... You not fooling anyone but yourself..Here I will make it easier for you.....Library tell me what private sector would do that...you said name one thing the gov. does that private would do better ....there you go ...now tell me what private sector would do that.......BAM you just got pwned

 

[Hydrolicious]

Okay heres a bunch or replies... I posted my portion of text in all caps because I wanted to distinguish the two and i typed it in notepad... so sorry for yelling... not the intent of the caps lol im just too lazy to go back and retype.

and... PASTE!


@kappainf
__________

I don't understand why people, unless they are politicians or work for the gov't, have so much faith and trust in the gov't or politicians
ITS NOT ABOUT HAVING FAITH IN GOVT. sOMEONE HAS TO BE IN POWER. IF THERE IS A VOID OF POWER SOMEONE WILL FILL IT.
IF YOU ACHIEVE YOUR GOAL OF LESS GOVT, DO YOU TRUST THAT THAT VOID WILL NOT BE FILLED BY THE SAME PEOPLE NOW PUSHING FOR LESS GOVT?


@ancap
_____________

Any organization that gets funded regardless of results and is several steps removed from their customers simply cannot perform efficiently.

THIS IS WHY THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY IS UNSUSTAINABLE IN THE LONG TERM.
TRYING TO PROTECT THIER INTERESTS IN THE NAME OF "FREE MARKETS" IS THE REASON HEALTH CARE IS SO SCREWED UP

INSURANCE IS THE BUSINESS OF TAKING RISK. IF YOU ALWAYS MAKE PROFIT, THEN WHATS THE RISK?

IF YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND YOU'RE SICK, DO YOU PRICE COMPARE HOSPITALS?
WHAT INCENTIVE DO HOSPITALS HAVE TO KEEP COSTS DOWN?


undertheice
_____________
"the lie of the ballot box is the tool that allows the few to take the power of the mob and use it to shape the destiny of a nation for their own profit."
IF THE BALLOT BOX IS A LIE, THEN WHY IS THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY SPENDING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON PROPAGANDA TO SWING VOTERS ON THIER SIDE?
IF SOMETHING IS WORTHLESS, WHY DO WEALTHY AND POWERFUL PEOPLE GO TO SUCH GREAT LENGTHS TO OBTAIN IT?

"the ceo has invested his time and finances into attaining his position"
YES, HE WAS ABLE TO DO SO BECAUSE HE HAS THOSE FINANCES.
IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY, MONEY MAKES YOU MORE MONEY. THIS MEANS YOU CAN MAKE MORE MONEY WITH LESS WORK IF YOU HAVE MONEY.
wHY SHOULD YOU GET TAXED THE SAME AS SOMEONE WHO'S ENTIRE INCOME IS WORK?
MOST LIKELY IF YOU HAVE THAT MUCH INCOME THEN YOUR MONEY IS SOMEONE ELSE'S WORK WHO YOU HIRED AT A DISCOUNT TO ITS TRUE WORTH.

"why shouldn't we consider his(CEO) work more important than the work of the burger flipper?"
BECAUSE THE BURGER FLIPPER DIRECTLY AFFECTS THE CONSUMER'S DECISION. IF HE IS LATE TO WORK AND IT TAKES TOO LONG TO GET YOUR FOOD YOU MAY NOT GO BACK.
IF THE CEO IS LATE DO YOU NOTICE OR CARE?
CAN YOU EVEN NAME THE CEO OF MCDONALDS WITHOUT LOOKING IT UP?
IF YOU OWNED SHARES IN MCDONALDS AND HAD TO FIRE ALL BURGER FLIPPERS OR ONE CEO WHO WOULD YOU LET GO?
WHO IS TRULY ESSENTIAL TO THE SERVICE THAT IS THE LIFEBLOOD OF YOUR BUSINESS?


CrackerJax
_____________
"Simply post ur proof that govt. is efficient."
I DID NOT SAY IT WAS, JUST THAT IT CAN BE

"Post anything at all that the govt. does well and better than the private sector."
SURE, THE GOVT HAS DONE SOME THINGS BADLY- BUT YOU HAVE A RECOURSE TO CHANGE THINGS AND FIX THEM (vote, lobby, debate).
DONT BELIEVE A POLITICIAN WHO TELS YOU ITS IMPOSSIBLE. HE IS A LAZY POS WHO JUST DOESNT WANT TO TRY.
ITS MUCH EASIER TO TAKE CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND GIVE THEM THE JOB OF PLANNING...

YOU IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR CAN AND HAS DONE MANY THINGS BADLY....
HEALTH INSURANCE
ENRON
LEHMAN BROS
BEAR STERNS
MILLIONS OF HARDWORKING AMERICANS WERE ROBBED OF THEIR RETIREMENT OR HEALTHCARE AT THE HANDS OF THESE FAT CATS WHO ARE FIGHING TO CONVINCE YOU THEY ARE BEING VICTIMIZED BY TAXES
...AND THE WORST PART IS... YOU HAVE NO RECOURSE.... YOU CANT VOTE YOUR BOSS OUT OF HIS JOB EVEN IF HE DOES RUN THE COMPANY INTO THE GROUND BEFORE PARACHUTING OUT

SO MAYBE YOU'RE THINKING OF LEAVING THE COMPANY YOUR BOSS IS SINKING AND COMPETING ON THE "FREE MARKET"...
OH BUT WAIT... YOU NEED MONEY TO START YOUR OWN BUSINESS. YOU HAVE NO GOOD OPTION BUT TO GO BACK TO YOUR JOB AND BE A WAGE SLAVE... ONLY TO SCREWED OUT OF RETIREMENT AT THE END

 

[CrackerJax]

Cracker you never told us which private sector would do a better job.... You not fooling anyone but yourself..Here I will make it easier for you.....Library tell me what private sector would do that...you said name one thing the gov. does that private would do better ....there you go ...now tell me what private sector would do that.......BAM you just got pwned

If a private company took over the library system, it would revolutionize it.

Google is leaving the antiquated Govt. Library sytem behind as I type this.

Take any govt. project, roads, fire, police....all could be done better and cheaper if done privately.

There is never even a close call when it comes to govt/private costs per activity.

If there was, you all would be listing them.......

 

[Hydrolicious]

If a private company took over the library system, it would revolutionize it.

Google is leaving the antiquated Govt. Library sytem behind as I type this.

Take any govt. project, roads, fire, police....all could be done better and cheaper if done privately.

There is never even a close call when it comes to govt/private costs per activity.

If there was, you all would be listing them.......

Yes, the library system is antiquated... but when it was established BY GOVT, it was state of the art... VOTERS have to motivate politicians to take action. Remember, they work for YOU.

 

[ancap]

THIS IS WHY THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY IS UNSUSTAINABLE IN THE LONG TERM.
TRYING TO PROTECT THIER INTERESTS IN THE NAME OF "FREE MARKETS" IS THE REASON HEALTH CARE IS SO SCREWED UP

Yes, any business that uses the force of the government to benefit at the expense of the public is corrupt and thus unsustainable in the long term (using violence to achieve your end is typically unsustainable). It is human nature to maximize resources and use the least amount of energy to gain advantage. Governments create the environment for corporatism or what you might call "corporate greed" though I think that's a very limiting term.

The insurance industry is a series of government sustained oligarchies. There is no interstate competition, it is subsidized, information can be hidden from the public, and there are government barriers for new insurance businesses to enter into the marketplace. With that recipe, are you surprised the consumer gets ripped off?

There is no way to argue that this industry represents the free market in any way.

INSURANCE IS THE BUSINESS OF TAKING RISK. IF YOU ALWAYS MAKE PROFIT, THEN WHATS THE RISK?

Any company that doesn't consistently make a profit is a failing company. In the purely economic sense, the only reason for a business to exist is to create a profit which provides jobs for the people who work in that business, and it allows the business to reinvest in its growth which creates more jobs. Of course profit isn't the only human motivator though.

There are plenty of risks for entreprenuers and investors launching a new business. I can list them for you, but I think they are pretty obvious, especially if you have any experience running a business.

IF YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND YOU'RE SICK, DO YOU PRICE COMPARE HOSPITALS?

Maybe, maybe not. In a free market though, it would not cost you $25 for a piece of gauze like it does now. Again, the healthcare industry is not in any way a representation of the free market. It has been infected by the government to create the environment for corporate predation.

WHAT INCENTIVE DO HOSPITALS HAVE TO KEEP COSTS DOWN?

Right now, very little. It is a sad state of affairs.

I'm not claiming to have satisfactorily answered all of your questions, so I'd be happy to dig in deeper if you'd like.

 

[ancap]

Yes, the library system is antiquated... but when it was established BY GOVT, it was state of the art... VOTERS have to motivate politicians to take action. Remember, they work for YOU.

Governments really don't create anything. They either purchase or steal from the free market. Libraries have been around for thousands of years. The idea of having a repository is a very basic one. As the free market of ideas innovates new technology, our libraries improve. This has nothing to do with the government.

 

[Hydrolicious]

"Maybe, maybe not. In a free market though, it would not cost you $25 for a piece of gauze like it does now. Again, the healthcare industry is not in any way a representation of the free market. It has been infected by the government to create the environment for corporate predation. "


"I'm not claiming to have satisfactorily answered all of your questions, so I'd be happy to dig in deeper if you'd like."

How is Govt responsible for private industry charging $25 for a piece of gauze?

Insurance companies are like casinos except the reverse... instead of charging you for the small chance to make huge gains, they charge you to eliminate the small chance you'll take huge losses.

I think casinos should be legal because you dont HAVE to make huge gains...
but to avoid the small chance of huge losses these insurance companies are essentially extorting me out of my cash....

IMHO, it should not be legal to make profit from pooling risk. This should be a non-profit service- and eventually it will be.

 

[ancap]

How is Govt responsible for private industry charging $25 for a piece of gauze?

Good question. I'll answer with a hypothetical...

Imagine businesses were responsible for bringing drinkable water to the consumer, and for some hypothetical reason, water isn't something you can just collect from the sky or take from a river (it is essential and you have to buy it from a business). In a free market, water companies would begin competing for market share to lower the cost of water to the lowest possible price relative to industry costs. Water quality would vary (and so would price relative to the quality), and third party watchdog organizations would direct consumers to the water companies that meet their demands of price vs quality.

Now imagine government enters the picture and says, "This water is no good! The total dissolved solids in the water cannot exceed 20ppm." Well, now the water companies must develop a stricter water purification process which raises their costs, and the retail price of water increases. Now imagine that the government comes back and says, "In order to sustain your license to produce and sell water, your water purification specialists must be certified by our standards by completing a new four year graduate course". Then imagine the government establishes the Association of Water Purification Specialists which dictates that the water companies must pay their employees three times the amount they were originally making. With the three fold increase in payroll industry-wide, the water companies must increase their retail prices even further. Now instead of paying $1 for a gallon of water, the consumer must pay $5. You cannot use government violence as a basis for solving social problems. It always backfires. This is why your gauze will cost you $25.

The numbers used in this hypothetical don't necessarily translate to the healthcare industry, but the general idea of government regulation is the same.

IMHO, it should not be legal to make profit from pooling risk. This should be a non-profit service- and eventually it will be.

If a company is willing to take the risk to insure you against the possibility of becomming ill and the associated costs, and someone is willing to pay for that service, who are you to use the power of the government to stop both parties from making that voluntary transaction? Your involvement in my private transaction seems rather tyrannical to me.

 

[londonfog]

If private sector took over the library they would charge you to enter it...then charge you to "rent" the book...Cracker are you really that dumb..or are you just really old...I can forgive you if you are an old senile man