DoJ Official Fired For Calling Waterboarding Torture

[clekstro]

The one american who has had this done to him, the one who knew he would not die, called it torture. If you've never been waterboarded, Wavels, and all the people who have say it's torture, what light can you shed?

I suppose you could cite someone again who's never been tortured, but that wouldn't really lend you much credibility.

Isn't this a paradox: You say that if they know they won't die, then it isn't torture. Yet for torture or "enhanced interrogation techniques" to work, they must believe they're going to die. If waterboarding is meant to fill this role, but they know they won't die, then it can't be effective in threatening death and accomplishing its purpose. So why do we do it?

Numerous intelligence officers have stated that they believe it to be counterproductive and unreliable. The thought is that we may perhaps get useful intelligence, and that takes extremely short-sighted precedence over the rights of all human beings the US claims to respect. We don't. That fact is not debatable. So you and Vi can stop pretending to be defending something beautiful or extraordinary and reassess whether or not your flavor of patriotism has crept past the forgetful and ridiculous and into jingoistic paranoia.

One other point, though, on this War on Terror, which this tactic is a part of. How is it that the administration can continue to claim triumphant success in defeating more and more of the enemy, but their "regeneration" is the reason we must stay and fight?

Journalist: "Mr. President, is the threat less than before? Are we safer?"
Bush: "Yes, there's less of a threat. We have killed tons of people. 70% of Al-Qaeda is dead."
Journalist: "Mr. President, does that mean that we will be withdrawing?"
Bush: "The threat of Iraq becoming a terrorist safe-haven demands continued American supervision and support."

Besides, Bush has already said that Baghdad's future is one of "relative peace." So when he says we'll withdraw when there is a stable democratic society, he's really saying: we're not ever going to leave. Maybe you guys will figure out that the people you defend couldn't give a shit less how many troops die. They have other, more important, priorities. And that doesn't include obeying the Constitution.

How sad that people like that garnish American support. Even though this war will have costed every American $8,000. What a waste of time and life. And you eat this shit up, Wavels...

Or do I have you all wrong?

 

[GrowRebel]

It's pretty good ... I hope lots of folks see it ...

WMP
In his latest fire-breathing Special Comment Keith tears into President Bush for [URL="http://www.abcnews.go.com/WN/DOJ/story?id=3814076&page=1"]firing a true patriot[/URL] that spoke out against torture, while cowardly and simultaneously ordering others to commit the very same heinous crime.

No matter how thorough you might try to brand disagreement as disloyalty, Mr Bush, there are still people like Daniel Levin who believe in the United States of America as true freedom, where we are better not because of schemes and wars, but because of dreams and morals. And ultimately, sir, these men, these patriots will defeat you and they will return this country to its righteous standards, and to its rightful owners: The People.

 

[medicineman]

The one american who has had this done to him, the one who knew he would not die, called it torture. If you've never been waterboarded, Wavels, and all the people who have say it's torture, what light can you shed?

I suppose you could cite someone again who's never been tortured, but that wouldn't really lend you much credibility.

Isn't this a paradox: You say that if they know they won't die, then it isn't torture. Yet for torture or "enhanced interrogation techniques" to work, they must believe they're going to die. If waterboarding is meant to fill this role, but they know they won't die, then it can't be effective in threatening death and accomplishing its purpose. So why do we do it?

Numerous intelligence officers have stated that they believe it to be counterproductive and unreliable. The thought is that we may perhaps get useful intelligence, and that takes extremely short-sighted precedence over the rights of all human beings the US claims to respect. We don't. That fact is not debatable. So you and Vi can stop pretending to be defending something beautiful or extraordinary and reassess whether or not your flavor of patriotism has crept past the forgetful and ridiculous and into jingoistic paranoia.

One other point, though, on this War on Terror, which this tactic is a part of. How is it that the administration can continue to claim triumphant success in defeating more and more of the enemy, but their "regeneration" is the reason we must stay and fight?

Journalist: "Mr. President, is the threat less than before? Are we safer?"
Bush: "Yes, there's less of a threat. We have killed tons of people. 70% of Al-Qaeda is dead."
Journalist: "Mr. President, does that mean that we will be withdrawing?"
Bush: "The threat of Iraq becoming a terrorist safe-haven demands continued American supervision and support."

Besides, Bush has already said that Baghdad's future is one of "relative peace." So when he says we'll withdraw when there is a stable democratic society, he's really saying: we're not ever going to leave. Maybe you guys will figure out that the people you defend couldn't give a shit less how many troops die. They have other, more important, priorities. And that doesn't include obeying the Constitution.

How sad that people like that garnish American support. Even though this war will have costed every American $8,000. What a waste of time and life. And you eat this shit up, Wavels...

Or do I have you all wrong?

I've found both VI and Wavels have selective memory on these kinds of issues. They'll go off on a tangent and make you out to be an idiot for some unwarranted reason, the old rule when defeat is in site, attack, even if it is the wrong enemy.

 

[ViRedd]

Waterboarding makes tight-lipped terrorists talk. At least three al-Qaida leaders reportedly have been waterboarded, most notably Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

KSM, as intelligence agencies call him, directed the Sept. 11 attacks, which killed 2978 people and injured at least 7,356. "I am the head of the al-Qaida military committee," he told Al Jazeera in April 2002. "And yes, we did it." While some doubt his claim, KSM reportedly said. "I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew Daniel Pearl in the City of Karachi, Pakistan."

After U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM in 2003, he stayed mum for months. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him ... for just 90 seconds. KSM "didn't resist," one CIA veteran said in the Aug. 13 New Yorker, "He sang right away."

KSM's revelaitons helped authorities arrest at least six major terrorists: Ohio trucker Iyman Faris pleaded guilty May 1, 2003, to providing material support to terrorist. He also conspired to derail a train near Washington D.C., and use acetylene torches to sever the Brooklyn Bridge's cables, plunging it into the East River. Rusman Gunawan was convicted of transferring money to bomb Jakarta's Marriott Hotel, killing 12 and injuring 150. Hambali, Gunawan's brother and ringleader of the October 2002 Bali nightclub blasts, killed 202 and wounded 209. Suspected al-Qaida agent Majid Khan, provided money to terrorists and plotted to aqssassinate Pakistani President Musharraf, detonate U.S. gas stations, and poison american water reservours. Jose Padella, was convicted of providing material support to terrorists and conspiring to kidnap, maim and murder people overseas. Yazid Sufaat, American educated biochemist, reportedly provided hijackers Midhar and al-Hazmi housin in Kuala Lumpur during a Jan. 2000 9-11 planning summit. He is also suspected of employing the "20th" hijacker.

All of the above arrests came about because of KSM's 90 second waterboarding session.

Personally, at this point in time, I don't care if waterboarding is "torture" or not. With 9-11, these animals declared war on the United States. As a citizen, I want every one of these assholes dead.

Vi

 

[dankie]

So you would tear up the Geneva convention? An accord we signed and have honored through two world wars. A document that has kept our soldiers safe in the hands of our aggressors for decades?

All because just over 3000 civilians were killed?

 

[clekstro]

yeah, he would. That's what's so scary about these views. The constitution can be violated without a peep from Vi. He's hedging his bets and towing the party line. Man, how much fear does a person have to be facing to saw that the law should no longer apply? That human rights will no longer be respected by the United States?

 

[tckfui]

the definition of waterboarding is a torture technique. it most definetly is torture... and if you think its not... wow I dont want to fuck with you crazy mother fucker

 

[medicineman]

VI is a pussy, he would give away the family jewels for one minute of waterboarding. The thing is, a person will tell you anything you want to hear from torture,. Heck I'd tell them what ever they wanted to hear, or whatever I thought they wanted to hear. The fear of imminent death is pretty strong and would result in a complete breakdown for the majority of people. Waterboarding is definently torture. I believe all those that give it ought to get it and that includes those in charge.

 

[Wavels]

Bush derangement syndrome is, to some degree at work here.
Or something even more insidious...the belief that the US is the font of all of the evil in this world...clekstro displays this bizarre fantasy with his topsy turvy world view above.
Perfection is not attainable in this realm of reality, no person is perfect and no country can be perfect.
The world always has been, and always will be, a brutal nasty harsh place.
It is only through the sheer ignorance of human history that a thinking person can arrive at such unfortunate conclusions.
There are so called experts on BOTH sides of this debate.
To equate waterboarding with the historical concept of torture is incorrect and purposely misleading.
Maybe even some of you guys would admit that waterboarding is, at least, the most benign form of "torture" yet devised by man?
Nope I do not think that even this tiny gesture is possible.

However this discussion is trivial when in actuality we should be much tougher on our self professed enemies.

Vi has it exactly right....here is the crux of the matter:
Personally, at this point in time, I don't care if waterboarding is "torture" or not. With 9-11, these animals declared war on the United States. As a citizen, I want every one of these assholes dead.

 

[medicineman]

Bush derangement syndrome is, to some degree at work here.
Or something even more insidious...the belief that the US is the font of all of the evil in this world...clekstro displays this bizarre fantasy with his topsy turvy world view above.
Perfection is not attainable in this realm of reality, no person is perfect and no country can be perfect.
The world always has been, and always will be, a brutal nasty harsh place.
It is only through the sheer ignorance of human history that a thinking person can arrive at such unfortunate conclusions.
There are so called experts on BOTH sides of this debate.
To equate waterboarding with the historical concept of torture is incorrect and purposely misleading.
Maybe even some of you guys would admit that waterboarding is, at least, the most benign form of "torture" yet devised by man?
Nope I do not think that even this tiny gesture is possible.

However this discussion is trivial when in actuality we should be much tougher on our self professed enemies.

Vi has it exactly right....here is the crux of the matter:
Personally, at this point in time, I don't care if waterboarding is "torture" or not. With 9-11, these animals declared war on the United States. As a citizen, I want every one of these assholes dead.

Lets be fair here We are known as the great Satan to most radical islamists, Israel is the little Satan. I'm sure they would like to see you dead Wavels. From a world perspective, who holds the high ground. They have killed 6-8 thousand Americans, and we have killed hundreds of thousands of muslims. I'd say we've been the victor in the body count and that is all that matters to the likes of VI and you wavels. Why can't we just call it a victory and bring the troops home? I would definently pay the price of admission to see all you waterboarding fans being waterboarded, That would be a real pleasant experience, especially since you think it isn't torture.

 

[ViRedd]

Lets be fair here We are known as the great Satan to most radical islamists, Israel is the little Satan. I'm sure they would like to see you dead Wavels. From a world perspective, who holds the high ground. They have killed 6-8 thousand Americans, and we have killed hundreds of thousands of muslims. I'd say we've been the victor in the body count and that is all that matters to the likes of VI and you wavels. Why can't we just call it a victory and bring the troops home? I would definently pay the price of admission to see all you waterboarding fans being waterboarded, That would be a real pleasant experience, especially since you think it isn't torture.

I'd say that's a good start.

And don't be so misleading, Med. It's the Islamofascists that I want dead. There isn't much that I agree with president Bush on, but when he stood on that pile of rubble at ground zero, holding the bullhorn, and said to the firemen: "Those who brought these buildings down will be hearing from us loud and clear," I felt nothing but admiration for the man.

Would the poster who said the constitution is being shredded, please point out what part? And ... are you a supporter of the 2nd, 9th and 10th amendments?

Do the Geneva Conventions apply to non-uniformed snipers and bombers who hide behind women and children?

Vi

 

[GrowRebel]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does the Geneva Convention apply to people defending their country from a occupying force?

 

[DND]

I'd say that's a good start.

And don't be so misleading, Med. It's the Islamofascists that I want dead. There isn't much that I agree with president Bush on, but when he stood on that pile of rubble at ground zero, holding the bullhorn, and said to the firemen: "Those who brought these buildings down will be hearing from us loud and clear," I felt nothing but admiration for the man.

Would the poster who said the constitution is being shredded, please point out what part? And ... are you a supporter of the 2nd, 9th and 10th amendments?

Do the Geneva Conventions apply to non-uniformed snipers and bombers who hide behind women and children?

Vi

You know there are recruiting in all divisions of armed services right? Too old? Send some of your children. No children, send a nephew or niece. All this talking on here is getting old. While I find it entertaining to hear you and other in support of this meaningless invasion, I also ask myself how many of you would suit up today and run the front lines?

 

[dankie]

I'd say that's a good start.

And don't be so misleading, Med. It's the Islamofascists that I want dead. There isn't much that I agree with president Bush on, but when he stood on that pile of rubble at ground zero, holding the bullhorn, and said to the firemen: "Those who brought these buildings down will be hearing from us loud and clear," I felt nothing but admiration for the man.

Would the poster who said the constitution is being shredded, please point out what part? And ... are you a supporter of the 2nd, 9th and 10th amendments?

Do the Geneva Conventions apply to non-uniformed snipers and bombers who hide behind women and children?

Vi

If those same bombers and snipers were in our country would they be waterboarded? Would they be held without a speedy trial?

 

[Wavels]

If these people are as you say dankie..."non-uniformed snipers and bombers".....

These people should be executed,if indeed they are what you say they are.

 

[medicineman]

If these people are as you say dankie..."non-uniformed snipers and bombers".....

These people should be executed,if indeed they are what you say they are.

I guess kinda like Iraq is trying to do to those Blackwater clowns, eh.

 

[Wavels]

Just because you, med, wish to believe the worst of these Blackwater fellas demonstrates this very point....there are many among us who desperately wish to believe the worst of the USA. the truth of this case remains to be ascertained, but this does not stop you from reaching your conclusion that Blackwater cannot be anything but a nest of virulent vipers....this verifies your world view of course....who needs any evidence to convict!

 

[dankie]

If these people are as you say dankie..."non-uniformed snipers and bombers".....

These people should be executed,if indeed they are what you say they are.

If they were held on US soil, none of these techniques cold be applied. Waterboarding is Cruel and unusual punishment in the USA.

It has been considered torture by the US up until the bush administration decided to use these tactics.

 

[GrowRebel]

Just because you, med, wish to believe the worst of these Blackwater fellas demonstrates this very point....there are many among us who desperately wish to believe the worst of the USA. the truth of this case remains to be ascertained, but this does not stop you from reaching your conclusion that Blackwater cannot be anything but a nest of virulent vipers....this verifies your world view of course....who needs any evidence to convict!

So tell us ... what planet are you on? The only thing to be ascertained is what's your excuse? Stupidity or ignorance?

[URL="http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/13664-blackwater-road-massacre"]Blackwater Road Massacre[/URL]
The video displays mercenaries in Baghdad killing other motorists on road. Note, these are all innocents including full families with children in the cars. Is this what America stands for?

US Military Official: Blackwater "May Be Worse Than Abu Ghraib"

[URL="http://mparent7777-2.blogspot.com/2007/09/blackwater-killing-people-for-sport-see.html"]Blackwater killing people for sport - see it with your own eyes [/URL]

[URL="http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/16/dad.blackwater/index.html"]
Dad: Blackwater blew up son's and wife's 'skulls'

[/URL]

 

[oneyearorange]

I'm sorry but if you can get info that will keep crazies from flying planes into biuldings by making them feel like they are being drowned without really drowning them. So be it. And I am sorry but that little BW video shows us nothing. It does not even prove that it is BW. Dont believe everything you see and read.