A Completely Free Society, Rich in Resources with an Educated Population

[medicineman]

I believe we need government, By the people. The People need more say in government. Capitalistic socialism is my choice for the type of society. Everyone should have the opportunity to have a job, a liveable wage job. those that can't qualify need to be able to have food and shelter, like feed and house the homeless. I'm pretty sure if the people at the top gave back some of their over-compensated wealth, this country could be a pretty fine place to live. Employees need to have a share in the company, literally, shares of company stock. It's been proven that companies that do this for employees make more profit, shared profit, and employees work harder and have much better attitudes about their jobs. Small companies that don't have shares, can pay bonuses if they have a good year. Sharing the wealth on a voluntary basis would make the whole job thingy much more pleasant. Yeah, the guy at the top should make much more than the janitor, just not 400-1000 times more.

 

[RickWhite]

Man, you guys are really breaking new ground here. Note the obvious sarcasm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/

Do you guys really think you are the first ones to consider such issues? I've said it a million times, wisdom is realizing how little you know.

 

[RickWhite]

I believe we need government, By the people. The People need more say in government. Capitalistic socialism is my choice for the type of society. Everyone should have the opportunity to have a job, a liveable wage job. those that can't qualify need to be able to have food and shelter, like feed and house the homeless. I'm pretty sure if the people at the top gave back some of their over-compensated wealth, this country could be a pretty fine place to live. Employees need to have a share in the company, literally, shares of company stock. It's been proven that companies that do this for employees make more profit, shared profit, and employees work harder and have much better attitudes about their jobs. Small companies that don't have shares, can pay bonuses if they have a good year. Sharing the wealth on a voluntary basis would make the whole job thingy much more pleasant. Yeah, the guy at the top should make much more than the janitor, just not 400-1000 times more.

Ya, we heard you the first hundred times you said this.

"Boo hoo, woe is me, life is unfair." Dude, with that attitude it is no wonder you are a loser and will be all your life. Stop trying to think of ways to use the power of Government to steal on your behalf. Go start your own business since you are so miserable working for others - then you can offer profit sharing if you choose to.

 

[medicineman]

Ya, we heard you the first hundred times you said this.

"Boo hoo, woe is me, life is unfair." Dude, with that attitude it is no wonder you are a loser and will be all your life. Stop trying to think of ways to use the power of Government to steal on your behalf. Go start your own business since you are so miserable working for others - then you can offer profit sharing if you choose to.

Loser? I guess the fight is on then. I am retired. I have sufficient funding, from a retirement plan, annuities and the beloved SS. Actually You are the loser. Lost all aspects of humanity. You rely on money to make you feel superior. From every post you have made, I have figured you to be an asshole, not just an asshole but a phony asshole. Your vision of life is so distorted it makes you look really plastic. Good luck on the journey after life, I'm pretty sure it will be a much warmer place.

 

[PadawanBater]

Man, you guys are really breaking new ground here. Note the obvious sarcasm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-rider/

Do you guys really think you are the first ones to consider such issues? I've said it a million times, wisdom is realizing how little you know.

Rick, why do you choose to oppose everything I, or someone on what you perceive to be the left has to say, no matter what? Even when the message couldn't be any clearer, even when the message couldn't be any more bipartisan, you would think every American would want what is best for America. Especially those claiming to be "true Americans"...

I started this thread for two reasons, one with the intent of getting the actual substance I asked discussed, Abe and Rob did a fantastic job. But the other reason I started it was to see if this is your game, I specifically had you in mind as I wrote the questions down, knowing you would come in and oppose the thread, simply because it was me who started it. These two posts, with nothing but disrespect towards the four of us who have posted in here confirm it.

So hopefully this proves it to yourself as well. You can't look past your own personal biases, not even to help contribute to something that might lead to something better, even if it's just an idea.

If this is all you're bringing to the thread, don't even bother, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

 

[libertarian23]

for me a completely free society would be one where i was left to fail or succeed on my own...no one to pick me up when i fall and no one to slap me down when i succeed.....i would have all the rights set out in the constitution and property would include my body(no one telling me what i can or cant put in my body)....for politicians these days they ignore the constitution completely they dont even take the step of thinking of it as a hurdle to get around they have no respect for it.

quick note on anarchy read this story
http://mises.org/story/2801
good article

 

[AutoFems Rule !!]

Not to self-promote but my "ramblings" are best summed up here:

421blog.com


Peace,
Bill

 

[ilkhan]

The Tao of Governance.
Great thread so far.

I am sort of a minanachist.
That is to say IMO governments job is to:
A. Protect people from force and violence.
B. Protect people from theft and fraud.
C. to enforce contracts.

To many people worry about the disparity of wealth.
Some even seem to think that the wealthy do not deserve what they have.
That they either inherited their wealth or came to posess it through fraud.
Fraud? Maybe, maybe not unless you can prove it, it means nothing.
If they inherited it Great good for their rich daddys who looked after their kids.
Do you think the wealthy hide their money in their mattres?
Of Course not, they invest it and live out their dreary lives in Kenny bunkport or whatever.
But that is not our consern.
Their money now puts hundreds perhaps thousands of people to work.
This is all great!

Some worry about Roads and education and other "services" currently provided by government.
Schools can be run locally or even privatized.
IMO privatizing schools would be much to be prefered over government schools.
Currently our nationalized education system is a disaster.
These kids can hardly read, think Nebraska is Central America and can't make change.
A privatized school would be held to a much higher standered and face competiton.
And IMO they could do it for less then we spend on Government schools.

We libertarians always argue these "facts" and are always shouted down.
Even back to the days of Lao-Tzu in the 6th century BC who became a hermit to avoid the government.
Or Chuang-Tzu in about the 4th centruy BC
who was offered a post in the royal court and 1000 ounces of gold replied:
I would rather roam and idle about in a muddy ditch,
at my own amusement,
than to be put under the restraints that the ruler would impose.
I will never take any official service,
and thereby I will satisfy my own purposes.

I think People are for lack of a better word "brainwashed" into thinking we need government for this or that.
When really we don't.
We will all get up in the morning and go to work.
We will feed our families.
We will provided ourselves with shelter.
We will do these things without being forced to.
We will thrive and provide for eachothers needs through trade and volintary interactions.
Some will create for themselves huge fortunes.
That they will use to build factories, ships and computers without orders from on high.
They will employ and provide further opportunity to those around them.
Without force or violence and without a strict task master.

The diffrence between a commen theif and a bandit cheiften is,
one goes to prison and one is head of a nation state.
Why is this so?
Force and Violence.
When you remove force and violence from the governments inventory, (Save in the three above cases)
A libertarian form of government is what your left with.

IMO government gets its power from the people.
Thus IMO Government has no right to do something
I have no right to do.

 

[RickWhite]

Rick, why do you choose to oppose everything I, or someone on what you perceive to be the left has to say, no matter what? Even when the message couldn't be any clearer, even when the message couldn't be any more bipartisan, you would think every American would want what is best for America. Especially those claiming to be "true Americans"...

I started this thread for two reasons, one with the intent of getting the actual substance I asked discussed, Abe and Rob did a fantastic job. But the other reason I started it was to see if this is your game, I specifically had you in mind as I wrote the questions down, knowing you would come in and oppose the thread, simply because it was me who started it. These two posts, with nothing but disrespect towards the four of us who have posted in here confirm it.

So hopefully this proves it to yourself as well. You can't look past your own personal biases, not even to help contribute to something that might lead to something better, even if it's just an idea.

If this is all you're bringing to the thread, don't even bother, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

The only thing I oppose are uneducated fools acting like know it alls. Your main problem is that you genuinely believe that your own idiotic thoughts are unique and brilliant. Read the links I provided and LEARN why your conversation is pointless. You are trying to invent the wheel when we already have modern steel belt radial technology.

You seem like an intelligent guy but you need to work on gaining wisdom. To gain wisdom one needs to stop pontificating and bloviating and start LISTENING and LEARNING.

If the links I posted do not fully demonstrate my point, nothing will.

 

[RickWhite]

Loser? I guess the fight is on then. I am retired. I have sufficient funding, from a retirement plan, annuities and the beloved SS. Actually You are the loser. Lost all aspects of humanity. You rely on money to make you feel superior. From every post you have made, I have figured you to be an asshole, not just an asshole but a phony asshole. Your vision of life is so distorted it makes you look really plastic. Good luck on the journey after life, I'm pretty sure it will be a much warmer place.

What really makes me happy in life is my enormous penis.

 

[PadawanBater]

The only thing I oppose are uneducated fools acting like know it alls. Your main problem is that you genuinely believe that your own idiotic thoughts are unique and brilliant. Read the links I provided and LEARN why your conversation is pointless. You are trying to invent the wheel when we already have modern steel belt radial technology.

You seem like an intelligent guy but you need to work on gaining wisdom. To gain wisdom one needs to stop pontificating and bloviating and start LISTENING and LEARNING.

If the links I posted do not fully demonstrate my point, nothing will.

So according to you, a group of people who are actively seeking questions to current problems they face who do not have the answers yet (as clearly shown by the current status of the world), and admit they don't have the answers are "know it alls"? Honestly, I wish you could see the expression on my face right now...

I don't think my thoughts are unique or brilliant at all. I think what I think is basically common sense. Anyone else who has observed the world as I have would come to the exact same conclusions. My opinions hold just as much weight as anyone else.

I think it's pretty obvious what I'm proposing has never existed before Rick. It's revolutionary. So are you gonna be part of the solution, or continue to be part of the problem?

 

[RickWhite]

The Tao of Governance.
Great thread so far.

I am sort of a minanachist.
That is to say IMO governments job is to:
A. Protect people from force and violence.
B. Protect people from theft and fraud.
C. to enforce contracts.

To many people worry about the disparity of wealth.
Some even seem to think that the wealthy do not deserve what they have.
That they either inherited their wealth or came to posess it through fraud.
Fraud? Maybe, maybe not unless you can prove it, it means nothing.
If they inherited it Great good for their rich daddys who looked after their kids.
Do you think the wealthy hide their money in their mattres?
Of Course not, they invest it and live out their dreary lives in Kenny bunkport or whatever.
But that is not our consern.
Their money now puts hundreds perhaps thousands of people to work.
This is all great!

Some worry about Roads and education and other "services" currently provided by government.
Schools can be run locally or even privatized.
IMO privatizing schools would be much to be prefered over government schools.
Currently our nationalized education system is a disaster.
These kids can hardly read, think Nebraska is Central America and can't make change.
A privatized school would be held to a much higher standered and face competiton.
And IMO they could do it for less then we spend on Government schools.

We libertarians always argue these "facts" and are always shouted down.
Even back to the days of Lao-Tzu in the 6th century BC who became a hermit to avoid the government.
Or Chuang-Tzu in about the 4th centruy BC
who was offered a post in the royal court and 1000 ounces of gold replied:
I would rather roam and idle about in a muddy ditch,
at my own amusement,
than to be put under the restraints that the ruler would impose.
I will never take any official service,
and thereby I will satisfy my own purposes.

I think People are for lack of a better word "brainwashed" into thinking we need government for this or that.
When really we don't.
We will all get up in the morning and go to work.
We will feed our families.
We will provided ourselves with shelter.
We will do these things without being forced to.
We will thrive and provide for eachothers needs through trade and volintary interactions.
Some will create for themselves huge fortunes.
That they will use to build factories, ships and computers without orders from on high.
They will employ and provide further opportunity to those around them.
Without force or violence and without a strict task master.

The diffrence between a commen theif and a bandit cheiften is,
one goes to prison and one is head of a nation state.
Why is this so?
Force and Violence.
When you remove force and violence from the governments inventory, (Save in the three above cases)
A libertarian form of government is what your left with.

IMO government gets its power from the people.
Thus IMO Government has no right to do something
I have no right to do.

Now here is a well thought out but humble post. Nice basic tenants based on sound, well established and time tested principles. ikhan claims no divine knowledge unknown to the rest of us or hubristic enlightenment that puts his ideas on a pedestal and anoints him supreme micro-manager of the world.

One thing I took away from this post is that the system will function without our meddling and that we can trust in it.

One would think there is something to the system that made us one of the most if not the most successful countries ever. In fact, this should be as plain as the nose on your face. Those who can't see this and who foolishly assume they could single handedly build a better system are simply trying to play a game they suck at and are too myopic to realize it.

 

[fulbright]

For a better society, I would say remove nearly all of the Federal Government, leaving only enough to protect the country from foreign invaders. I would leave the majority of power in the hands of the States, or perhaps in an even smaller grouping. I feel like the closer the government is to the people, the happier they will be. Because the Federal Government tries to please everyone, it cuts a medium line through society. The poorest feel they aren't getting enough, the richest feel they are being taken from too much, the liberals feel things are too restrictive, the conservatives feel things aren't restrictive enough, yadda yadda ya. The point should be obvious. We have all kinds of people in America in wide varieties and beliefs.If you make 1 government try to please 350 million people, you can be damn sure that a good portion of those people are left unsatisfied. So bring the the Government down to a local level, and I think you will see more satisfaction within and without Government.

I believe to remove some of the disparity of Capitalism, we should remove our Money based on Debt system. We should remove the ability to make money without labor. I believe money should not represent anything other than labor. If you don't labor, you make no money. Quite simple really.

I also believe taxation on a man's labor, or products of labor is wrong. The only government taxation that I can get behind is Land Taxation. Because land is not a product of our labors, and belongs to all. If a man wants private property, then he can have it as long as he can pay "rent" to society for it. (This idea originates mainly with Georgism-- look it up)

I believe that all children living within the borders of a government, should pay no taxes, but receive most of the benefits of a taxpaying citizen. At 18, I believe all children should receive a thorough education on the government, how it works, where the power comes from, and what their obligations would be to be part of society. Then give them a social contract, which they will sign if they want to be a part of society and under it's laws. If they don't want to be a part of society and follow it's rules, then send them on their merry way out of that government's borders. Such a method would remove any excuse of saying "I had to no choice! I didn't choose to be a part of this!"

I believe criminals should be forced to pay for their own incarceration. Simply put them in a cell with nothing in it. Tell them if they would like, they may receive a free lethal injection at any time. Or they can starve themselves in their cell. But if they desire substance and life, they can work for it. Their labor would first pay for the cost of keeping them in prison, and second for their own comfort (food, water, clothing, entertainment, etc.). Once the sentence is complete, the prisoner may opt to stay on for a month or some other period of time, to earn money for their own pockets-- this would be to ensure they have the funds necessary to reintegrate themselves into society. Victimless crimes are not crimes at all, and would not be punished. (ie. drug use and other such things)

If you were to combine this with money based on labor, then each criminal would be given their sentence based on how much money or labor they cost another. They would then be in prison for as long as it took them to repay their debt.

Most of these ideas are somewhat rough cut, and still need to be refined. But I believe they are viable options.

 

[fulbright]

The only thing I oppose are uneducated fools acting like know it alls. Your main problem is that you genuinely believe that your own idiotic thoughts are unique and brilliant. Read the links I provided and LEARN why your conversation is pointless. You are trying to invent the wheel when we already have modern steel belt radial technology.

You seem like an intelligent guy but you need to work on gaining wisdom. To gain wisdom one needs to stop pontificating and bloviating and start LISTENING and LEARNING.

If the links I posted do not fully demonstrate my point, nothing will.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to say: "Right back at ya buddy!"

You said wisdom is realizing how little you know, right? Well...
A wise man will say he can learn anything at anytime from anyone! So maybe instead of attacking PadawanBater and his ideas, be they original or not, you should be wise and realize you may have something to learn from him.

Also realize that if you want to teach someone, you do not insult them first. Even if your point is perfectly valid and correct, the insult will raise their hackles and you will find yourself talking to a brick wall. And I would say to act in such a way demonstrates ignorance-- not wisdom

 

[Rob Roy]

For a better society, I would say remove nearly all of the Federal Government, leaving only enough to protect the country from foreign invaders. I would leave the majority of power in the hands of the States, or perhaps in an even smaller grouping. I feel like the closer the government is to the people, the happier they will be. Because the Federal Government tries to please everyone, it cuts a medium line through society. The poorest feel they aren't getting enough, the richest feel they are being taken from too much, the liberals feel things are too restrictive, the conservatives feel things aren't restrictive enough, yadda yadda ya. The point should be obvious. We have all kinds of people in America in wide varieties and beliefs.If you make 1 government try to please 350 million people, you can be damn sure that a good portion of those people are left unsatisfied. So bring the the Government down to a local level, and I think you will see more satisfaction within and without Government.

I believe to remove some of the disparity of Capitalism, we should remove our Money based on Debt system. We should remove the ability to make money without labor. I believe money should not represent anything other than labor. If you don't labor, you make no money. Quite simple really.

I also believe taxation on a man's labor, or products of labor is wrong. The only government taxation that I can get behind is Land Taxation. Because land is not a product of our labors, and belongs to all. If a man wants private property, then he can have it as long as he can pay "rent" to society for it. (This idea originates mainly with Georgism-- look it up)

I believe that all children living within the borders of a government, should pay no taxes, but receive most of the benefits of a taxpaying citizen. At 18, I believe all children should receive a thorough education on the government, how it works, where the power comes from, and what their obligations would be to be part of society. Then give them a social contract, which they will sign if they want to be a part of society and under it's laws. If they don't want to be a part of society and follow it's rules, then send them on their merry way out of that government's borders. Such a method would remove any excuse of saying "I had to no choice! I didn't choose to be a part of this!"

I believe criminals should be forced to pay for their own incarceration. Simply put them in a cell with nothing in it. Tell them if they would like, they may receive a free lethal injection at any time. Or they can starve themselves in their cell. But if they desire substance and life, they can work for it. Their labor would first pay for the cost of keeping them in prison, and second for their own comfort (food, water, clothing, entertainment, etc.). Once the sentence is complete, the prisoner may opt to stay on for a month or some other period of time, to earn money for their own pockets-- this would be to ensure they have the funds necessary to reintegrate themselves into society. Victimless crimes are not crimes at all, and would not be punished. (ie. drug use and other such things)

If you were to combine this with money based on labor, then each criminal would be given their sentence based on how much money or labor they cost another. They would then be in prison for as long as it took them to repay their debt.

Most of these ideas are somewhat rough cut, and still need to be refined. But I believe they are viable options.

Please define "labor".
Would a person that invents things or a scientist that does mostly thinking be exempt from receiving money in your view? Would people be allowed to spend money on entertainment? Would comedians get money?

Please define criminal. If a handicapped comedian were incarcerated for "illegally" acquiring money and couldn't labor, would you let him starve?

I commend you for disliking taxation. How will you pay for your authoritarian government and enforcement of its borders? Who'll pay all those clerical types you'll need to keep track of who signed "contracts" with the government?

 

[RickWhite]

So according to you, a group of people who are actively seeking questions to current problems they face who do not have the answers yet (as clearly shown by the current status of the world), and admit they don't have the answers are "know it alls"? Honestly, I wish you could see the expression on my face right now...

I don't think my thoughts are unique or brilliant at all. I think what I think is basically common sense. Anyone else who has observed the world as I have would come to the exact same conclusions. My opinions hold just as much weight as anyone else.

I think it's pretty obvious what I'm proposing has never existed before Rick. It's revolutionary. So are you gonna be part of the solution, or continue to be part of the problem?

ROFLMAO!!!!

You admit to not having all the answers? Well, that would be a first!

Common sense - common to whom? All your ideas come from so far out in left field you are standing in the parking lot.

What do you mean "observed the world as you have"? What are you like 20 years old? You know jack shit about the world and you prove it on a daily basis.

Your opinions do not hold the same weight as everyone else's. See, that is exactly the type of ignorant nonsense that makes you sound foolish. What about you gives you the impression that your ideas are worth a hill of beans? You think all opinions are equal just because you are entitled to them? So my opinions on how to conduct a heart transplant are equally as valid as a heart surgeon's? I appreciate the vote of confidence but I'd go with the cardiologist.

You are correct that a utopia has never existed to the best of my knowledge. But, you have got to be kidding if you think your ideas are revolutionary. Over ten billion people have roamed this earth - get a clue man. You are just some kid who sits at home posting crap you thought up on a dope growing forum. If you want to be a revolutionary, go to Stanford's Hoover Institute, get a degree in economics and write a book on the subject for your peers to review.

Ah, but I shouldn't be too hard on you. You are clearly a victim of a hijacked educational system that fills your head with garbage.

Look - it's real simple. If you were well read, you would have knowledge of the quantity and quality of the existing body of knowledge and though regarding such issues and you would be disabused of the notion that your ideas are revolutionary. The mere notion is just plain foolish. You would also understand that America is the way it is for a reason and that the principles that make this country great are not something a 20 year old kid thought up while screwing around on line. That you would presume to be able to do better is a joke.

Everything about your post suggests an unearned and irrational yet assumed arrogance common among the Left. It is unfortunate that you and so many like you have been indoctrinated to hold such absurd views. This mindset does nothing except prevent you from learning how to think. You would do well to disabuse yourself of your self aggrandizing ways - you might learn something.

 

[RickWhite]

Please define criminal. If a handicapped comedian were incarcerated for "illegally" acquiring money and couldn't labor, would you let him starve?

Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice!

And who would the rest of us work for? Talk about discouraging the entrepreneurial spirit.

Jesus, I'm dizzy from all these great ideas. I could swear Marx had similar ideas but I know these are all revolutionary so it can't be.

Well, I better go do some physical labor. Wouldn't want the Government to come into my business that I built from the ground up and arrest me for not doing my share of "labor."

And I can see a few people here have rockets that need building.

 

[RickWhite]

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to say: "Right back at ya buddy!"

You said wisdom is realizing how little you know, right? Well...
A wise man will say he can learn anything at anytime from anyone! So maybe instead of attacking PadawanBater and his ideas, be they original or not, you should be wise and realize you may have something to learn from him.

Also realize that if you want to teach someone, you do not insult them first. Even if your point is perfectly valid and correct, the insult will raise their hackles and you will find yourself talking to a brick wall. And I would say to act in such a way demonstrates ignorance-- not wisdom

Oh I learn plenty from him. I learn that we are all fucked if we allow the impostors in our schools to churn out more indoctrinated clones like him.

And I long ago found myself talking to a brick wall with regard to him and the million other kiddies that have been programed to think exactly like him. Unfortunately, years of indoctrination are tough to erase.

 

[PadawanBater]

Oh I learn plenty from him. I learn that we are all fucked if we allow the impostors in our schools to churn out more indoctrinated clones like him.

And I long ago found myself talking to a brick wall with regard to him and the million other kiddies that have been programed to think exactly like him. Unfortunately, years of indoctrination are tough to erase.

Dude, I'm not being baited into your little game. I know that's what you want, you thrive on the attention.

So carry on, I mean dang, I'm just a stupid 22 year old kid anyway...

 

[PadawanBater]

The Tao of Governance.
Great thread so far.

I am sort of a minanachist.
That is to say IMO governments job is to:
A. Protect people from force and violence.
B. Protect people from theft and fraud.
C. to enforce contracts.

To many people worry about the disparity of wealth.
Some even seem to think that the wealthy do not deserve what they have.
That they either inherited their wealth or came to posess it through fraud.
Fraud? Maybe, maybe not unless you can prove it, it means nothing.
If they inherited it Great good for their rich daddys who looked after their kids.
Do you think the wealthy hide their money in their mattres?
Of Course not, they invest it and live out their dreary lives in Kenny bunkport or whatever.
But that is not our consern.
Their money now puts hundreds perhaps thousands of people to work.
This is all great!

Some worry about Roads and education and other "services" currently provided by government.
Schools can be run locally or even privatized.
IMO privatizing schools would be much to be prefered over government schools.
Currently our nationalized education system is a disaster.
These kids can hardly read, think Nebraska is Central America and can't make change.
A privatized school would be held to a much higher standered and face competiton.
And IMO they could do it for less then we spend on Government schools.

We libertarians always argue these "facts" and are always shouted down.
Even back to the days of Lao-Tzu in the 6th century BC who became a hermit to avoid the government.
Or Chuang-Tzu in about the 4th centruy BC
who was offered a post in the royal court and 1000 ounces of gold replied:
I would rather roam and idle about in a muddy ditch,
at my own amusement,
than to be put under the restraints that the ruler would impose.
I will never take any official service,
and thereby I will satisfy my own purposes.

I think People are for lack of a better word "brainwashed" into thinking we need government for this or that.
When really we don't.
We will all get up in the morning and go to work.
We will feed our families.
We will provided ourselves with shelter.
We will do these things without being forced to.
We will thrive and provide for eachothers needs through trade and volintary interactions.
Some will create for themselves huge fortunes.
That they will use to build factories, ships and computers without orders from on high.
They will employ and provide further opportunity to those around them.
Without force or violence and without a strict task master.

The diffrence between a commen theif and a bandit cheiften is,
one goes to prison and one is head of a nation state.
Why is this so?
Force and Violence.
When you remove force and violence from the governments inventory, (Save in the three above cases)
A libertarian form of government is what your left with.

IMO government gets its power from the people.
Thus IMO Government has no right to do something
I have no right to do.

Great post ilk, I pretty much agree with all points made.