Eavesdropping program dropped

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
US President George Bush has decided not to reauthorise the controversial domestic warrantless surveillance program for terrorism suspects and to put it under the authority of a secret special court, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said.

"The president has determined not to reauthorise the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the current authorisation expires," Gonzales wrote in a letter to Senate leaders.

"Any electronic surveillance that was occurring as part of the Terrorist Surveillance Program will now be conducted subject to the approval of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court," Gonzales said.

The program, adopted after the September 11, 2001, attacks, allowed the government to eavesdrop on the international phone calls and emails of US citizens without obtaining a warrant, if those wiretaps are made to track suspected al Qaeda operatives.

Critics have said the program violated the US Constitution and a 1978 law, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which made it illegal to spy on US citizens in the United States without the approval of the special court.
 

medicineman

New Member
Critics have said the program violated the US Constitution and a 1978 law, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which made it illegal to spy on US citizens in the United States without the approval of the special court.
__________________
Problem is, you can't believe a word the asshole says!
 

420penguin

Well-Known Member
To be clear, this doesn't mean that monitoring has been reduced.

This just means that the Bush Administration's illegal monitoring of domestic phone calls has now been made legal.

I'm way too tired to debate the ethics of that. But I just wanted to mention, that the eavesdropping program is still in effect. It's just legal now.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
It means that they have to do it legally now. Before they weren't going to the FISA courts (which was illegal) Now they have to.
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
This is simply political capitulation on the part of Bush. He lost the election; he is throwing bones to pacify the hordes of chronic Bush Haters howling at the gates. I think he is conserving political capital for the donnybrook over the troop surge strategy....


IMO, "eavesdropping" is a good thing!
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
So you do not believe that we have a fundamental right to privacy?

If so then, that makes you lean more towards totalitarianism. Can you say Ziek Hiel?
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
I don't plan on making or receiving phone calls to or from overseas terrorists.
It's quite simple; I see no threat from US government as you do, curious, as you see no threat from the Muslim miscreants?
You are more worried about GWB than the US's self professed enemies.
Not me.
This is common sense security.....and too little of it.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
The point is, there have been documented insidances where they have evesdropped on people who were calling overseas just to talk to family or friends.
Besides there is no excuse for violating the constitution or Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Either one would be an impeachable act. Have you ever heard of Due Process? It's a provision in a funny little document we call the constitution.
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
Yes, and overseas terrorists and their US based contacts are not entitled to "due process", especially at time of war. (I wish we had a domestic program in place.)
This system will never be perfect, and hopefully it snares lots of these bad guys....
Of course, some mistakes will be made, but that is not a good reason not to do it.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
Wavels, The US patriot act violates the Constitution on several levels.
So don't use that as your basis.
Any time that a president violates due process, the president is violating the constitution. Anyone who is in this country, good or bad are protected by the due process clause of the constitution. If that weren't true, then we would have trials for Illegal immigrants who break the law in this country.
Look Wavels, I'm not saying this because I hate bush, I am saying this because Bush Broke the Law.
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
FDR and Lincoln broke the law much more emphatically; they were far more aggressive than GWB in the usurpation of rights.
It was temporary then, as it is now.
 

Dankdude

Well-Known Member
It still doen't make it right... Also did you know that constitutionally that an exectutive order is an act of treason... Reason is because the president is circumventing congress. We have check and balances for a reason, and a president's power isn't absolute.
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
If I did not see any mortal threat to our way of life for the future, I would agree with you!
I think it is because we do not perceive the same menace to our very existence, that we will not agree on this issue.
 

medicineman

New Member
If I did not see any mortal threat to our way of life for the future, I would agree with you!
I think it is because we do not perceive the same menace to our very existence, that we will not agree on this issue.
Boy is that an understatement, you are pissing down your leg and I'm laughing my ass off. You must be a weenie, a weenie full of koolaid. We are at war, or so they keep telling us, well in a war sometimes the home team (us) may have to take a hit, get used to it. Do you think just because we're the big bad USA we dont get collateral damage in a war. For what we've done to their countries (Iraq & Afganistan) we might have a few blowups coming, you are the one saying look out, look out, the sky is falling, well I hope it falls close to all the corporate assholes promoting this war! Basically, that is what happened on 911, they blew up all the money boys, got a few innocents I realize, but how many innocents have we killed since then? Koo-kuka-choo~LOL~!
 

7xstall

Well-Known Member
I hope it falls close to all the corporate assholes promoting this war! Basically, that is what happened on 911, they blew up all the money boys, got a few innocents

it's ridiculous as hell to say that.

if he's saying look out, what are you saying, close your eyes, plug your ears and hum? i agree that there is a certain level of inevitableness to another attack but there's no sense in not directing some of our attention to preventing it.
 

medicineman

New Member
I hope it falls close to all the corporate assholes promoting this war! Basically, that is what happened on 911, they blew up all the money boys, got a few innocents

it's ridiculous as hell to say that.

if he's saying look out, what are you saying, close your eyes, plug your ears and hum? i agree that there is a certain level of inevitableness to another attack but there's no sense in not directing some of our attention to preventing it.
I'm saying that saying look out promotes fear and gives those in control more power over us, To control a society you must promote your existance (the government) by either being beneficial to the people by providing all the services that your tax dollars will provide, or scaring the crap out of them and telling them only you can protect them, this government has definently went the scaring the crap out of us route. There well may be some more attacks, but to live in fear of them will give you an early grave. We could stand down 400,000 troops, Run off all the lobbiests, reduce washington to a 1 horse town, then get local government off the scotch and put them on prozac and use the money to fund a comprehensive medical program in our country. I think the people would welcome some comfort from our government, Hopefully they'll try the benevolent approach some day!
 

Wavels

Well-Known Member
[FONT=arial,verdana,helvetica,sans-serif]Tolerance of the intolerable

In mosques all around the world, a crier known as a muezzin calls the faithful to prayer five times a day. He shouts to the four compass points one after the other, “Allah is the greatest... Make haste towards prayer... Make haste towards prayer... Allah is the greatest.”

This public display of obdurate virtue is well-known, but it is less well-known what goes on inside the mosques where Muslims gather for their prayers. The Islamic religion has always had an element of secrecy about it, including keeping the holy city of Mecca off limits to anyone except Muslims
.[/FONT]



That veil of mystery has been penetrated from time to time by outsiders, including Sir Richard Francis Burton, the great 19th century explorer and author who disguised himself as a Muslim in order to enter the holy city and the Kaaba, the cube-shaped building which is the mystical center of the religion and toward which Muslims pray five times a day no matter where on earth they are located.

In recent years, because of the increase in terrorism led by Muslims worldwide, there has been a growing need for information about the Islamic religion. But most non-Muslims today know just as little about what happens inside a mosque as they did before Burton’s pilgrimage and before 9/11.

That lack of knowledge has allowed a public debate to take place about whether Islam is a religion that “teaches the value and the importance of charity, mercy, and peace” (as President Bush described it) or whether it is a religion that teaches domination, destruction and subjugation.

For a variety of reasons — including fear, political correctness and tolerance — most Westerners have been unwilling to make a true and honest inquiry into this question, but this month we may have started to see a few chinks in the wall of silence.

It started in England last week when Channel 4’s “Dispatches” news show did a special report called “Undercover Mosque,” in which a reporter attended services in mosques that “claim to be dedicated to moderation and dialogue with other faiths.” Instead, the reporter found what the show’s Website called a “message of religious bigotry and extremism being preached.” That included general hatred for non-Muslims and more specifically calls for the overthrow of the British government and democracy.

This weekend, the light continues to shine in dark places as both CNN and Fox are showing documentaries dedicated to unveiling the threat of Islam to our way of life.

Fox News’s report, called “Smokescreen: Hezbollah Inside America,” tells the story of a Hezbollah cell that operated for several years in Charlotte, N.C., before being broken up a year before 9/11. The connections of this criminal enterprise stretch back to Lebanon and Iran, and though al-Qaida has gotten more publicity, Hezbollah is considered as big a threat to the United States, if not more so.

On CNN, reporter Christiane Amanpour introduces a new show called “Special Investigations Unit,” which again focuses on the British Muslim community to illustrate the threat to Western society in a report called appropriately “The War Within.” Amanpour apparently links the radicalization of Britain’s Muslims to the War in Iraq, which I certainly don’t agree with, but even so I am glad to see the word get out that we face an enemy that intends to destroy us.

In a column on the CNN Website, Amanpour wrote, “we found shocking evidence of the bigotry, intolerance and hatred preached by some Muslim fundamentalists in the UK. We met men like Anjem Choudary of the now-banned Al-Mahajiroon extremist group, who denounces democracy and predicts Britain will be ruled by Sharia, Islamic law.”

Despite this clear and “shocking” evidence, however, the CNN reporter takes two steps back when she concludes that the violent, intolerant Muslims are a small minority in Britain. She holds out hope that “mainstream Muslims” will reclaim their religion, and speaks of a “deep sense of Islamophobia” on the rise in Britain and across Europe, as if fear of people who want to kill you is somehow a mental illness.

It is this almost pathological tendency toward self-blame which has the capacity to undo us. But the evidence abounds that there are millions of Muslims who intend to destroy our culture or to subjugate it, and no evidence that any substantial number of Muslims intend to do anything to stop them. Indeed, if Muslims speak out against intolerance and oppression of the “infidels” — namely us — then they themselves risk being put to death.

Perhaps, Amanpour should once again read the words of Osama bin Laden:

“This war is fundamentally religious... Those who try to cover this crystal clear fact, which the entire world has admitted, are deceiving the Islamic nation. They are trying to deflect the attention of the Islamic nation from the truth of this conflict... Under no circumstances should we forget this enmity between us and the infidels. For the enmity is based on creed.”

Yes, bin Laden blames part of the war on the fact that “you (Americans) attacked us and continue to attack us” in Palestine and Somalia, but much more relevant to the “enmity” that exists between Islam and the Judeo-Christian world are bin Laden’s words such as this:

“ What are we calling you [Americans] to, and what do we want from you?

“(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.... and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He [Allah] sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

“(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

“(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honor, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling, and trading with interest....

“(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

“(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Sharia of Allah in its Constitution and laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator.”


So bin Laden, with the blessings of his mullahs and Islamic teachers, freely admits that he and his kind will not be happy until they have converted the West to Islamic law, Islamic religion and Islamic customs.

The war against terror is not about fighting to prevent a bombing here or there; it is about fighting for survival.

The evidence should be clear to anyone who hears the muezzin’s cry. The call to prayer is a call to action, and as long as we in the West continue to ignore the very real, very vocal threat of Islam, then we will continue to be victims of our own good nature.

There is really no secret about the nature of Islam, and these television shows of the last few days don’t really teach us anything we didn’t know already if we were paying attention.

The question, of course, is whether our love of diversity will continue to be greater than our love of life. If so, it promises to be our ruin. Because however much we Americans pride ourselves on our tolerance — that tolerance will not protect us from zealots; rather it will protect the zealots from us.
The Daily Inter Lake News Page
 

medicineman

New Member
“(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

“(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honor, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling, and trading with interest....

“(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:


Other than his call to Islam, he has pretty much nailed down western civilization. Those items listed above are certainly alive and well in our world, and if we were the good Christians we profess, we would want the same results, to do away with those bad habits. And as far as the worst civilization, If you really look at what we have been doing to the world in general, you'd have to agree. Maybe we need to take Christianity more seriously as It has the same principles of morality. The killing of the infadels I will never agree with nor should anyone. those are the ramblings of extreme zealots. should we be vigilant, indeed, should we live in fear, only if we have the heart of a rabbit. The lion hearted do not live in fear.
 

Nimbliez

Well-Known Member
Does anyone know or has anyone seen the documents that rescinded Martial Law imposed by Abe Lincoln? What makes me think that the US has been under martial law since then, is the fact that GWB is capable of issuing administrative orders, which is ONLY an ability of a country under martial law. Hmmmm and every 2 years since it's first establishment you have heard on the news we are at war with someone or something (ie. drugs, terrorists, etc). Has anyone ever heard of a case of constitutional law being brought before the supreme court and win it??? Why? you ask? Because our supreme court is not judging under constitutional law, but.... martial law. Some stuff to ponder... Just my 2 cents worth, but then again 2 cents just aint worth 2 cents any more.
 
Top