MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[sherriberry]

hey fatman,... or anyone who mixes their own nutes...

i know you said that the initial investment of getting all the nutes is kind of heafty,

instead of me going out and buying a bunch of stuff that i dont know if its the best or not...

i was wondering if you could sell me some small portions of all the powdered nutes to get me through a grow, and ill send you whatever money you think is fair.

If its too big of a hassle, thats fine, no problems, but i just figured it was worth an ask.

Thanks

mixing my own nutes and understanding whats going on and what helps plants and what not... this is the next area i want to learn about.

 

[OregonMeds]

hey fatman,... or anyone who mixes their own nutes...

i know you said that the initial investment of getting all the nutes is kind of heafty,

instead of me going out and buying a bunch of stuff that i dont know if its the best or not...

i was wondering if you could sell me some small portions of all the powdered nutes to get me through a grow, and ill send you whatever money you think is fair.

If its too big of a hassle, thats fine, no problems, but i just figured it was worth an ask.

Thanks

mixing my own nutes and understanding whats going on and what helps plants and what not... this is the next area i want to learn about.

Me too... We're on the same path.

I'd split an order with you if I could, but I won't be able to for at least one or two months.

 

[tree farmer]

This one would work ok
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS/-/1.html

Clydefrogs schematic is a bit too basic, it needs a few more components otherwise the timing could vary. It would be fine for anything non critical where a second or two either way is tolerable.

Fatman, the fun is in building something that does the same job for 10% of the price. I made a twin cycle timer for the vertical that cost the equivalent of $15.67. Believe it or not, the damned hardware (a plastic box, control knobs etc) made up over half the total cost

thats the exact one sitting inside my 2 timer box that switches between night and day cycles. a little overkill for just swtching the timer load of 24vac but its what i had and for the price you cant complain. i also liked it cause it had the 2 little feet to mount it inside the box.

atomizer did you make a day- night rig or the dual tmer for another purpose.

 

[sherriberry]

well, i might need more help with relays etc...

i want to install a couple of these float switches

http://cgi.ebay.com/Liquid-Water-Level-Sensor-Right-Angle-Float-Switch_W0QQitemZ350317768951QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item519090f0f7

and they seem to be rated very low on amps and voltage...

First, can they be hooked directly to a 120v solenoid, to open when water levels get to a certain height, and close when they to the other hight?

what im trying to do is have a big res with deep water in it.

And have it gravity feed to a bunch of little chambers that are all in series connected with hoses, and have DWC in the bottom few inches of each one....

but have a pump in the last chamber, that forces water back to the main res.... which will be more than a few inches deep, more like a couple feet.

That pump will ALWAYS be on...

meanwhile, i will use gravity, and my normally closed solenoids to feed the chambers when they start to get low due to the pump emptying them all out

So the solenoids need to open when the water levels get too low, and then close when water levels start to get too high.

Actually, i dont need the reverse power relays linked by atomizer for this situation, i can simply flip that float swtich upside down, or visa versa to coincide with the solenoids opening/closing..

but... my question still remains...

will a 120v solenoid adapt to that switch, or will i have to add yet another kind of relay, etc, to allow the big currents to go to the solenoid, and only a small current to go to the float sensor linked?

or... is there a cheap float sensor like the one ive linked that carries more juice... i cant find them, and if i do, they are super expensive.

 

[Atomizer]

thats the exact one sitting inside my 2 timer box that switches between night and day cycles. a little overkill for just swtching the timer load of 24vac but its what i had and for the price you cant complain. i also liked it cause it had the 2 little feet to mount it inside the box.

atomizer did you make a day- night rig or the dual tmer for another purpose.

Hi TF
It doesn`t hurt to have extra switching capacity if the price is right. Another thing is they generally quote the resistive load capacity, using an inductive load will derate the capacity by 60%
I made the twin timer for the vertical, one timer controls the mist solenoid and the other controls intermittant rotation of the cylinder (turning it 5 degrees every 6 minutes for example). The rotation isn`t needed at night but its no problem to add another timer for the night cycles.

Sherryberry,
I wouldn`t want mains power anywhere near water let alone submerged. You can use the float switches with low voltage and use it to switch a higher voltage via a relay.

 

[sherriberry]

Sherryberry,
I wouldn`t want mains power anywhere near water let alone submerged. You can use the float switches with low voltage and use it to switch a higher voltage via a relay.

haha, which relay do i need to buy now?

i bought a few of those others you linked since they were so cheap.

thanks guys for all your help

 

[Atomizer]

Any type as long as the coil voltage matches the voltage your putting through the float switches. I prefer to use a dpdt type as they give you more options, like switching two seperate circuits at different voltages.

 

[OregonMeds]

I thought about a hybrid system also sherriberry. But over and over we keep hearing in this thread how negative it is to have the roots laying in any water.
How's that supposed to work out? From what I can tell the plants will really be only using the most efficient feeding and the other may only be useful in controlling the shape of the plant... My thoughts, completely guessing...

 

[tree farmer]

I thought about a hybrid system also sherriberry. But over and over we keep hearing in this thread how negative it is to have the roots laying in any water.
How's that supposed to work out? From what I can tell the plants will really be only using the most efficient feeding and the other may only be useful in controlling the shape of the plant... My thoughts, completely guessing...

in a hybred system there is no reason you cant have the bottom roots in water as long as the water oxygenation is dealt with. in a pure aero application you want to keep the floor roots out of any runoff cause if not the system will have to be run(misting cycle) to take those roots that are laying in solution into account. meaning you will have to mist in such a way as not to over saturate the chamber cause the moisture level will build up and keep the floor roots wet always which is not ideal. this will be seen as a browning of the floor roots as the roots that are above stay nice and white.

a well designed hybred system may work as well but not sure exactly how to design it so that the upper roots could be sprayed and remain seperated from the lower roots while the lower would have access to water or light nute levels. the only way to really know is if somebody tried it. and i have never seen anyone try a hp aero with some kind of RDWC or maybe even ebb and flow for the bottom roots. lp sprayers up top and dwc we all have seen. this is what most call aero but to me its just NFT. works great did it many times but imho its not much different from the NFT principle.

 

[sherriberry]

its possible... and long story short, sure you are losing out on the bottom 3 inches NOT being aero, and thus being LESS efficient...

but you have a lot of perks.

First perk is, if power goes out... your plants live... for days.

Second is.. if a sprayer clogs... your plants live... for days.

Third perk is... if you overspray... that left over water doesnt sit on the floor of the chamber and warm up and start diseases.

I keep the res outside the air tight grow room.

The tubs are in the room obviously, and the plants are growing in the tubs.

Res stays cool.

Lets say theres 5 tubs with plants in them in the room...

you simply connect them in series... and have a sump pump in the middle tub.

THis pump pumps to the main res, and keeps the main res's level high.

The water level in the 5 plant tubs never exceeds 3 inches lets say.

The way you do this is simply have a solenoid or 2 that lead back to the 2 end tubs on each end of the lineup of tubs.

Since the main res's level is much much higher, gravity will always bring fluid from the res to the 2 end tubs when the solenoids open.

A float switch set at 3 inches high in a tub, coincides with a solenoid that LETS water flow to the tubs IF the water level drops below 3 inches.

The sump pump is always on, UNLESS its float switch senses thigns get below 2 inches.

So the sump pumps to the main res, and the main res gravity spills back to the end tubs...

the end tubs level raises, and thus the connecting hoses from tub to tub located at less than an inch up from the ground...

water gravity feeds back to the center tub...

where the sump pump is.

i run will run a float sensor in the 2 end tubs and have 2 seperate pipes and solenoids lead to the end tubs from the main res.

Water dwc water is always moving.

Meanwhile...

your sprayer pump is down at ground level next to your main res, and so its always primed....

it has yet another solenoid, and its fatman style, where the solenoid is the path back to the main res, and the sprayers in the tubs are the other path...

when its open, fluid just circulates in the main res... when it closes, fluid goes to the sprayers in the tubs instead.

All pipes that come to the main res, from the sump or from the sprayer , waterfall back through a deisel catch bag filter, so your catching any debris before it goes to the main res.

Then you run a finer filter in only your sprayer line, that feeds to the sprayers...

so its pre filtered, and the finer filtered before it goes through the nozzels so it doesnt clog them up too often.

And since theres dwc... if they clog... it'sall good


2 things... first is i forgot to mention there will be an air stone in every res.

This air pump is the only thing that NEEDS to be attached to battery backup.

I use ALL normally CLOSE solenoids... that way the main res doenst flood the 5 tubs if the power goes out.

I also stated above that the sump pump shuts off IF the the float sensor senses water levels too low...

a better way of doing this is prob to keep the sump always going, and have a solenoid that opens and lets the water spill right back down into that center tub the sump is in... that way the pump isnt turning on and off constantly...

however... its important to note that i use a small sump, so the flow isnt TOO rediculous... and i have 2 large diameter pipes go to each of the 2 tubs at the end of each line from the main res....

so... the gravity feed pipes from the main res SHOULD be large enough in diameter to OUTRUN the spump pupms ability to empty out the center tub...

and then as water levels in the 5 tubs rise, the solenoids in the gravity lines from the res, close... and let the sump catch up and lower the 5 tubs.

so, technically the only time the middle tub should get LOW is if there is a clog somewhere...

so in addition to having the solenoid from the sump back to the res open, dumping water right back into the same tub that the sump is in, not letting it run dry...

and a buzzer could be attached to that 2 inch low level float sensor as well, so you know to go check your tub to tub lines for clogs.




so ive got the ideas, but not all the know how... im going to attempt to figure out how to hook up these float level sensors to the solenoids, AND hook one up to the buzzer.

4 solenoids total. All nomally closed.

2 for the gravity lines back to the the 2 end tubs

1 for the sprayer pump to allow water to recycle while sprayers arent spraying

1 for the sump pump, to allow the water to fall back down in the same tub, and not let the level lower anymore, running the pump dry.

 

[sherriberry]

Any type as long as the coil voltage matches the voltage your putting through the float switches. I prefer to use a dpdt type as they give you more options, like switching two seperate circuits at different voltages.

i really am a cave man when it comes to this stuff....

so i assume on my rverse polarity setup, the solenoid will still need power, so you hook up 2 different power sources to the relay, and when one shuts off, the other go ahead and powers on the solenoid?

then, on the second setup, with the float switches...

i assume im going to have to get some sort of 12v battery or something to send a signal through the float switch and to the relay?

if theres a tutorial on this shit so i dont have to bother you guys, let me know, lol

i have 3 of those dpdt ones you linked ordered.

im going to have 3 float switches, and also need a relay for the reverse timers...

so im guessing im going to have to order a couple more of these relays then...

 

[OregonMeds]

Oh yea, I see, I hadn't considered the redundancy but I've already heard fatman say how even if power goes out in his aero system he has pressure in the tank enough to already have that backup for days I think...

And aren't they using more than one spray head to avoid one clogging?

At any rate I think you are on to something.

How about no solenoid only pump power keeping the level at 3" and when the power goes out the res is only large enough to fill the tubs so the aero roots don't go dry? Or a double res system that holds more water but achieves the same goal, where only the smaller res will dump back into the tubs with an outage?

 

[Atomizer]

If you are running 12v dc through the float switches you need a relay with a 12v dc coil.
Dwc wont safeguard your aero roots against power outages..they will be doomed. Its better to use a 12v dc backup pump, timer and solenoid like TF has or simply build a 12v system and run it on a transformer. Add a $1.75 relay to switch from the transformer to a deep cycle battery when the mains power fails.
You could even park a small solar panel in the growroom or outside to trickle charge the battery

 

[sherriberry]

If you are running 12v dc through the float switches you need a relay with a 12v dc coil.

like i said, im the one asking you, lol

i dont know what i need

I linked those float switches that im buying, and i have 3 of the dpdt relays you guys linked me to, on order already

so im asking you, what else do i need? I cant imagine the relay can give a solenoid power when it does not recieve power ... so theres gotta be antoher hot wire coming in right?

and also, im asking, with those switches, what relay and power source do i need?

thanks

 

[OregonMeds]

If you are running 12v dc through the float switches you need a relay with a 12v dc coil.
Dwc wont safeguard your aero roots against power outages..they will be doomed. Its better to use a 12v dc backup pump, timer and solenoid like TF has or simply build a 12v system and run it on a transformer. Add a $1.75 relay to switch from the transformer to a deep cycle battery when the mains power fails.
You could even park a small solar panel in the growroom or outside to trickle charge the battery

Could you please elaborate on this part. The difference in roots and why they can't survive in dwc?

 

[sherriberry]

Oh yea, I see, I hadn't considered the redundancy but I've already heard fatman say how even if power goes out in his aero system he has pressure in the tank enough to already have that backup for days I think...

And aren't they using more than one spray head to avoid one clogging?

At any rate I think you are on to something.

How about no solenoid only pump power keeping the level at 3" and when the power goes out the res is only large enough to fill the tubs so the aero roots don't go dry? Or a double res system that holds more water but achieves the same goal, where only the smaller res will dump back into the tubs with an outage?

honestly, my brain cant solve that problem... having the double res... i considered doing it that way in the begining, but it came out to be more complex i think


As far as only having enough water in the main res to not flood the 5 tubs... honestly, i dont, and youre right, you could do it that way.

The tubs im using at like 44gal or something

so even if i had a 100gal res, that coudnt flood them.

i was just trying to get fancy i guess and keep the water moving as fast as possible...

either way, a person would still have to have a low level float sensor for their sump pump in the middle tub... because theres no way that you are going to magically always have the return gravity flow match the sump pumps flow back to the main res.

so ones gotta be faster than the other ... thats reality.

so if the gravity feed from the res to the tubs is too high, the tubs will be higher than 3 inches all the time

and if the sump pumps rate of pumping back to the res is higher... then eventually the tubs will go dry

so one way or another, you need at least one float sensor to govern the faster of the 2 flows...

so i think the obvious choice is to limit just the sump pump, with a low level sensor, and that way every time the middle tub goes too low, the solenoid opens, and the sump pump just dumps the water where its sucking it from.. back into that middle tub, so that the water level doesnt fall anymore.

and tht would give the gravity feed lines time to catch up.

I guess youre right... one wouldnt need the 2 solenoids on the 2 gravity feed lines...

i got too fancy.

so, the only 2 solenoids you need are

1 on the sprayer pump to recycle the water back

and 1 on the sump pump to recycle the water back to the middle tub when levels get too low.

either way... im still a caveman when it comes to this relay stuff.

got the 3 on order, and have no clue what to do next, or what other parts, or power sources i will need.

so im down to 2 solenoids being used, 2 relays being used, 1 timer, and 1 float sensor.

good call on hitting me with the simpler setup, thanks bro

 

[sherriberry]

Could you please elaborate on this part. The difference in roots and why they can't survive in dwc?

i think hes saying that the fine hairs will not survive up high...

the main core roots going down to the water will probably, but not all the fine roots

im no expert on this... but id say even the fine roots would last a little while as long as the plant has access to water, plants can move moisture around somwhat within the plant...

but i do see his point, the longer periods, you would loose your fine hair roots.




heres the thing tho...

its all tradeoffs right now... and for a guy like me just entering this hp world... and not biting off more than i can chew..

right now ive spent 25 bucks on a new refurbished 1/4 hp sump pump off ebay.... and ive got a backup..

so thats 50 bucks.

Then i got one of those 1 inch clearwater pumps off harborfreight, good for huge flows, and around 35psi according to my little psi meter i attached to my system..... that was 30 bucks

and 70 cent 60-80 micron beige misters linked earleir in this thread, from the drip store.

and a bunch of 20 dollar tubs,

a bunch of 1 inch bulkhead fittings, and a bunch of 1 inch hose

no accumulator tanks or expensive nozzles.

so my pump im using... isnt going to run long on battery backup... i know this, it sucks too much juice.

so for that reason, if the power goes out... we need a simple solution.

Further... since im not running 90+psi, my root hairs... not going to be fine like his...

so the odds of my roots dying off.. i still think arent as doom and gloom as he thinks.

So thats my reasoning...

and eventually, can i upgrade to better nozzles and accumulator tanks and pumps...

sure...

but are we ahead of 99% of the rest of the grow world as far as sophisitcated root absorbing setups go... plus a simple way to keep our plants alive if theres a big power outgage...

yes we are.

Theres maybe 4 guys in this forum who have this setup beat.

and considering this setup can be built for under a few hundred bucks and hold a ton of plants...

i think its a no brainer.

 

[Atomizer]

so im asking you, what else do i need? I cant imagine the relay can give a solenoid power when it does not recieve power ... so theres gotta be another hot wire coming in right?

and also, im asking, with those switches, what relay and power source do i need?

thanks

The mains power (or whatever voltage the solenoids, pumps will use) is connected to the relays "common" contacts.
When the coil is not powered up the commons connect to the normally closed (n/c) contacts.
When the coil is powered the commons connect to the normally open (n/o) contacts.

You connect the solenoid or pump to either the n/o or nc contacts depending on whether you want them to run when the coil is powered or not powered.

The pic attached (mains to battery switching) has the com, n/o and n/c contacts marked. The coil is powered.

 

[sherriberry]

nice

so for the float sensors, how do i wire those into play? What power source SHOULD i use for those?

 

[sherriberry]

heres a pic of what im doing just incase someone is completely lost