MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

[Atomizer]

in my current system im at .5 sec every 5 minutes and i only see around 8 ounces currently during lights on come out the drain(even less on the larger one) and almost nothing during lights out.

That works out to just 113ml (3.82oz) of nutes consumed per chamber per day

 

[tree farmer]

That works out to just 113ml (3.82oz) of nutes consumed per chamber per day

not sure how your math mind calculated that but just in case you misunderstood me that is 8 ounces out of each chamber as i now just have dishes under the pods to collect the waste cause if i wait for it to make it thru the drain hose i cant get an accurate reading of the ec and ph cause it takes to long to go the 10 ft thru the drain hose to the sump with such low flow. lights out i have them on 1 sec every 30 minutes. still around 32 ounces a day down the drain isnt bad. at 300 ppm you can see why DTW is the only way to go.when you feel a fan leaf you can tell they are getting enough water cause the leaf feels cool to the touch and there isnt any leaf cupping. im sure its hard for peeps to believe that but it is what it is.

 

[sherriberry]

Sherri, found this forum has lots of scholarly references about activation spectrum of cannabis. Haven't waded through them all. Main emphasis is flatter spectrums are better following the TOTAL activation spectra.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=158600&page=2

good thread... i didnt see much on uv light tho.

you understand obviously that uv light hurts plants just like it hurts our skin....

and weed produces its own natural sunblock....

we know it better as the crystals that have the thc inside.

so what im saying is...

during the last few weeks of flowering... if you put some t5 uv medical bulbs in a grow room, i dont see any reason why it would hurt anything... and it wouldnt add much to an electric bill or to heat...

and just wondering what kind of success anyone has had and if anyone has tried this.

still, a good linked thread tho.

 

[Atomizer]

not sure how your math mind calculated that but just in case you misunderstood me that is 8 ounces out of each chamber . im sure its hard for peeps to believe that but it is what it is.

Believe or not that was per chamber and doesn`t account for longer night cycles
Assuming each chamber has 4 nozzles @ 0.04oz (4.258LPH) on a 0.5sec/5min cycle they would deliver 680ml per day, minus the run-off 8oz (567ml) = 113ml/day.

It appears 8 us fl oz is actually 236ml so my math is adrift due to pesky unit conversion its still not a great deal though at 444ml (15 us fl oz).

It could be sheer coincidence but the predicted daily throughput for early growth with a 22.2gal (84L) chamber is 0.45L

 

[fatman7574]

fatman
here is a question for you. how much if any do you think plants uptake nutrients during lights out. im trying to get an idea of how much nutes is necessary during that time. does a plant just rely on stored energy during that time or do they use some nutes even though photosynthesis is not taking place. i want to use this info to determine misting cycles and nutrient levels for lights out if possible.

Night time uptake of nutrients is negligible. Transport of nutrients from the rootsto the plant is dependant upon transpiration and there is almost no tranpiration after the lights go out as their is no heat issue causing a need for cooling nor is there light heating the foliage and therefore driving the transpiration.

 

[fatman7574]

i dont feel the aero part if HP is used would contribute much to the below DWC content. in my current system im at .5 sec every 5 minutes and i only see around 8 ounces currently during lights on come out the drain(even less on the larger one) and almost nothing during lights out. the ph is usually .2 to .5 higher than going in so with this small amount of mist ending up in the Dwc and small ph rise it wouldnt contribute much to the solution in my opinion. one could speculate that possibly the plant with an efficient HP root system doesnt need large quanities of water since in my current run they seem to be doing ok with the little they see. i could be wrong though maybe they would be growing much faster than they are if they had tap roots in a constant source of water. i do know that if i mist them much more they start to show the signs of overwatering. i guess well find out when you guys get going.

treeth
I thought you maybe fell into a hole we havent heard from you in so long. im currently watching a guy set up an HP cloner and am wondering how its going to work. im wondering why yours didnt take.

Your right in that little water is required in a controlled climate where the water is applied in a manner where the up take efficiency is so good. The water is principally used to maintain plant cooling through transpiration and to transport nutrients. It takes miniscule amounts of additional water to actually transport the nutrients as the water used to transport is already within the plant. The water that will be transpired actually moves the nutrient water and its nutrients through out the plant.

So to incraese tranpiration you need lower humidity and higher temps and or both. This also allows for increased nutrient uptake. With such an efficient root system even high temps and low humidity will not increase water take up to any huge extent. Maybe 50% to 100% at most. This wouldlikely not take place unless temps were in the 80's and thehumidity was below about 30% to 40%.

 

[tree farmer]

Your right in that little water is required in a controlled climate where the water is applied in a manner where the up take efficiency is so good. The water is principally used to maintain plant cooling through transpiration and to transport nutrients. It takes miniscule amounts of additional water to actually transport the nutrients as the water used to transport is already within the plant. The water that will be transpired actually moves the nutrient water and its nutrients through out the plant.

So to incraese tranpiration you need lower humidity and higher temps and or both. This also allows for increased nutrient uptake. With such an efficient root system even high temps and low humidity will not increase water take up to any huge extent. Maybe 50% to 100% at most. This wouldlikely not take place unless temps were in the 80's and thehumidity was below about 30% to 40%.

i could run my room at 30 percent humidity and 80 degree temp but i always hear conflicting info on humidity. whats your thoughts on what people say that if the humidity is to low the plant just compensates by closing its stomata to reduce transpiration. im thinking a plant that grows in very dry climate has to do something to limit the escape of water as it has to survive on little water. but maybe if it has all the water it needs it doesnt adjust its stomata to compensate. im going to have to do some research into that.

 

[fatman7574]

i could run my room at 30 percent humidity and 80 degree temp but i always hear conflicting info on humidity. whats your thoughts on what people say that if the humidity is to low the plant just compensates by closing its stomata to reduce transpiration. im thinking a plant that grows in very dry climate has to do something to limit the escape of water as it has to survive on little water. but maybe if it has all the water it needs it doesnt adjust its stomata to compensate. im going to have to do some research into that.

I hear a lot of strange things in the MJ forums. A plants cells are filled with water, and the whole plant is 'rigid' with the water. This is caused by the high positive internal osmotic pressure, also called turgor. This state of high internal pressure in cells is called hypotonic. Should a plant lose its turgor, it would wilt and its leaves would be completely limp.

Most energy for keeping the cells hypertonic results from the transpiration, the evaporative pull resulting from water evaporated through the stomata and from the cohesion & capillary action of the water in the plants veins.

Roots control the environment and intake and exhaust of solutes. Some of the pressure is created actively by the root-hair cells - cells pump water inside the plant, using their cellular energy (ATP).

If you lower the humidity about the plant without lowering the temperature if the plant has water and a quality root system that can pump the water to maintain plant cell turgor they will simply transpire more. There are extremes such as hot dry air in a hot climate where there is very little water (sandy dry soil lacking organics and humus), and yes then as turgor is lost the stomata would close.

But That would be the fault of a lack of water availability not due to the low humidity. Put a drip ssytenm in to keep that sandly soil moist and thepalnt would regain turgor and transpiration would increase. It is as simple as that. The hype about humidity is based mainly upon soil grows where water is limited to what little is held by the absorbancey of the soil. Hydro eliminates that limited water availability as long as the water is dispenced often enough. It also is perpetuated by growers who use grossly excessive ventilation in combination with poor roots systems.

A plant with a good root system and adequate water availability has many more problems with high humidity than they ever have with low humidity.

High transpiration where the humidity is being removed as the transpiration takes place is much different than low humidity caused by inadequate tranpiration due to inadequate capabilty to move the water through shiity root systems or due to a lack of adequate amounts of water.

ie a shiity grow can have problems with low humidity. A good grow does not have low humidity issues as high transpiration is still taking place and it is not limited due to its good root system and ample water availability.

hair roots have huge water moving capability. On the average length of 5 mm of root covered with hair roots, the surface area of these root hairs would exceed 1/3 square meter, over 3 square feet!!! So if your root systems are adequately cared for and are provided with conditions that promote and maintain hair roots then those hair roots can easily supply all the water for huge levels of transpiration even with huge plants growing at low humidities.

 

[Atomizer]

It appears only the tip plane of a root hair is active, the hairs increase the effective diameter of the root.
(i) root hairs function mostly by water uptake through the root hair tip plane;
(ii) the growth of root hairs, perpendicular to the root surface, expands the apparent diameter of the cylinder that is characterized by the root water potential, thereby increasing the effective surface area of the root for water uptake;
(iii) the growth of needle-shaped root hairs requires minimal investment in biomass with less mechanical resistance compared with alternative strategies that require larger root diameter or root length.

 

[clydefrog]

It appears only the tip plane of a root hair is active, the hairs increase the effective diameter of the root.
(i) root hairs function mostly by water uptake through the root hair tip plane;
(ii) the growth of root hairs, perpendicular to the root surface, expands the apparent diameter of the cylinder that is characterized by the root water potential, thereby increasing the effective surface area of the root for water uptake;
(iii) the growth of needle-shaped root hairs requires minimal investment in biomass with less mechanical resistance compared with alternative strategies that require larger root diameter or root length.

so in practical terms, this increased transpiration would allow for closer light placement, correct?

I'm also wondering how nutrient lockout would occur in the absence of any buildup...does it happen in the rez if your ph or formulations are out of whack?

 

[fatman7574]

It appears only the tip plane of a root hair is active, the hairs increase the effective diameter of the root.
(i) root hairs function mostly by water uptake through the root hair tip plane;
(ii) the growth of root hairs, perpendicular to the root surface, expands the apparent diameter of the cylinder that is characterized by the root water potential, thereby increasing the effective surface area of the root for water uptake;
(iii) the growth of needle-shaped root hairs requires minimal investment in biomass with less mechanical resistance compared with alternative strategies that require larger root diameter or root length.

Only versus mostly. Pick one.

OK, only the surface area of the tip of the hair root. Figuring the tip area is the same as the area of a cross section of the shaft of the root hair then the tip area is still (for a finger nail size area of root uon which it grows) a very healthy 0.14 square feet.

 

[fatman7574]

so in practical terms, this increased transpiration would allow for closer light placement, correct?

I'm also wondering how nutrient lockout would occur in the absence of any buildup...does it happen in the rez if your ph or formulations are out of whack?

To understand lock out you need to understand buffering, the electrical attraction of ions and pH. A simple explanation dealing with just basic (high pH) buffering portion: At low pH ie below 7.5 nearly all carbonates are bicarbonates (HCO3&#8722. They neutralize negative ions (basic pH causing ions). Initially bicarbonates are formed from carbonic acid (H2CO3), which is formed from dissolved CO2 in water. This quickly turns to Bicarbonate.

The bicarbonate is the actual buffer. What is attached to that buffer is what is consider locked out. Bicarbonates are formed in water, very few are available as salts. For example Potassium bicarbonate is only formed in water it is not in nature found as a salt.

Back to the subject. bicarbonate typically forms up in pairs (HCO3&#87222. This means it has a negative 2 charge. With a negative 2 charge that means it will glom (nice scientific word) onto a cationic ion with a two charge. IE it will draw a Ca++ or a Magnesium++ cation usually. Ca++ has a stronger charge than a Mg++ as it has a larger radius so typically the bicarbonate ties up the Calcium, especially as there is more Calcium present than Magnesium so it has a greater chance of bumping into (another great scientific expression) a calcium ion than a magnesium ion.

A Potassium ion has only a plus one charge and simply can not compete as well in forming up with the bicarb unless they are in high numbers. Hence some manufacturers use a lot of Potassium versus a lot of calcium so as to have the excess potassium tied up instead of calcium and magnesium. Now the bones of the story: every time more + ions are taken up by the plants roots IE nitrate, a carbonate ion is released which gloms onto positive charged ion(s). IE tied up + ions and a higher pH as the balance has switch to less excess H+ protons.

The out of wack pH is simply a result of releases of H+ or (HCO3&#8722 by the roots in order to maintain a ionic balance. This causes a pH changes as pH is basically dependent on the amount of H+ protons above the number of OH- ions. This means if there are more extra H+ protons your pH will be acidic and if there are less H+ than OH- the pH will be basic (above pH 7). This is directly related in our nutrient water to the level of buffers so that directly ties in with the tied up ions. The tie up is also related to the fact that a 2+ ion has a strong attractive/holding force so it does not readily let go once formed into a bicarbonate compound.

 

[Atomizer]

Only versus mostly. Pick one.

OK, only the surface area of the tip of the hair root. Figuring the tip area is the same as the area of a cross section of the shaft of the root hair then the tip area is still (for a finger nail size area of root uon which it grows) a very healthy 0.14 square feet.

I agree, not much info out there so we only have so much to go on (and most of that is contradictory lol). The roots hairs will be able to intercept maybe 350% more mist than a root without hairs so its not too shabby

 

[fatman7574]

I agree, not much info out there so we only have so much to go on (and most of that is contradictory lol). The roots hairs will be able to intercept maybe 350% more mist than a root without hairs so its not too shabby

It all translates to, at a low humidity and high heat plants with good root systems can transpire a great deal more and therefore are capable of transporting more nutrients and therefore growing faster IF there is also an adequate level of CO2 and enough lighting PAR for that faster growth.

I like long sentences. I have a really big chest (54 inches) with large lungs and I write like I speak. In a long winded fashion.

 

[tree farmer]

To understand lock out you need to understand buffering, the electrical attraction of ions and pH. A simple explanation dealing with just basic (high pH) buffering portion: At low pH ie below 7.5 nearly all carbonates are bicarbonates (HCO3&#8722. They neutralize negative ions (basic pH causing ions). Initially bicarbonates are formed from carbonic acid (H2CO3), which is formed from dissolved CO2 in water. This quickly turns to Bicarbonate.

The bicarbonate is the actual buffer. What is attached to that buffer is what is consider locked out. Bicarbonates are formed in water, very few are available as salts. For example Potassium bicarbonate is only formed in water it is not in nature found as a salt.

Back to the subject. bicarbonate typically forms up in pairs (HCO3&#87222. This means it has a negative 2 charge. With a negative 2 charge that means it will glom (nice scientific word) onto a cationic ion with a two charge. IE it will draw a Ca++ or a Magnesium++ cation usually. Ca++ has a stronger charge than a Mg++ as it has a larger radius so typically the bicarbonate ties up the Calcium, especially as there is more Calcium present than Magnesium so it has a greater chance of bumping into (another great scientific expression) a calcium ion than a magnesium ion.

A Potassium ion has only a plus one charge and simply can not compete as well in forming up with the bicarb unless they are in high numbers. Hence some manufacturers use a lot of Potassium versus a lot of calcium so as to have the excess potassium tied up instead of calcium and magnesium. Now the bones of the story: every time more + ions are taken up by the plants roots IE nitrate, a carbonate ion is released which gloms onto positive charged ion(s). IE tied up + ions and a higher pH as the balance has switch to less excess H+ protons.

The out of wack pH is simply a result of releases of H+ or (HCO3&#8722 by the roots in order to maintain a ionic balance. This causes a pH changes as pH is basically dependent on the amount of H+ protons above the number of OH- ions. This means if there are more extra H+ protons your pH will be acidic and if there are less H+ than OH- the pH will be basic (above pH 7). This is directly related in our nutrient water to the level of buffers so that directly ties in with the tied up ions. The tie up is also related to the fact that a 2+ ion has a strong attractive/holding force so it does not readily let go once formed into a bicarbonate compound.

this might seem like a wierd question but in the absence of water around the roots do they still give off the H+ or Hco3- ions. i guess what im asking is when the roots recieve the mist and uptake the positive or negative charge and then release a charge since the roots are sitting in air is the charge released to air or do you think thethe roots must wait until the next drop of mist.

why i ask is because the root system on one of my girls has gotten so large that at the current mist cycle i dont see any runoff for 4 hrs after lights on. the other ones have run off after just an hr or so. im wondering during this time what is going on with the root zone in the large one. the intial runoff after those 4 hrs or so on the large one always comes in low at around 5.6 where as the other 3 the ph always comes out at aroung 6.2 from the start. now by the end of the lights on cycle the large ones run off ph has come in line with the other 3 to 6.2. surprisingly the runoff ppm from the smallest to the largest is usually not more than 20ppm difference.

it sucks having them uneven but it has given me more data on how to build the new chambers to be able to control the flow to each chamber seperately to factor in the differences in plant growth among individuals.

 

[fatman7574]

this might seem like a wierd question but in the absence of water around the roots do they still give off the H+ or Hco3- ions. i guess what im asking is when the roots recieve the mist and uptake the positive or negative charge and then release a charge since the roots are sitting in air is the charge released to air or do you think thethe roots must wait until the next drop of mist.

why i ask is because the root system on one of my girls has gotten so large that at the current mist cycle i dont see any runoff for 4 hrs after lights on. the other ones have run off after just an hr or so. im wondering during this time what is going on with the root zone in the large one. the intial runoff after those 4 hrs or so on the large one always comes in low at around 5.6 where as the other 3 the ph always comes out at aroung 6.2 from the start. now by the end of the lights on cycle the large ones run off ph has come in line with the other 3 to 6.2. surprisingly the runoff ppm from the smallest to the largest is usually not more than 20ppm difference.

it sucks having them uneven but it has given me more data on how to build the new chambers to be able to control the flow to each chamber seperately to factor in the differences in plant growth among individuals.

The only way the roots would not release excess carbonate ions or H+ protons is if there is no excess water to release them into. That would mean so liitle water that the roots actually suckup soo much water that they external suraces were dry immediattly after spraying. The palny ts sroots are obviously receiving more than that or they would ceases to live. Your plants are just rece veing enough water that the roots are releasing the excess carbonate ion or H+ protons and they just build up on the roots surface only to remixed with the next spraying, and then both the initial and the new amount would end up on the roots exterior surface etc untill an excess of fluids would allow the removal of all the carbonate or H+ protons from the roots exterior surface. You also have to consider that the size, position and bushiness of the palnts arealso going to determine the reatio of nitrate to ammonium nitrogen it takes up sand that will change the pH of the drainage water from each plant. Plus if the size difference is do to the larger palnt being a different phenotype its uptakes will also be different.
Can you just up the size of the mister mainly feeding the largest plants roots, or is it impossible to access it with the plants and roots being too large? Or maybeput a Tee fitting on your feed line outside the pod and just install another small flow mister to feed the larger plant more.

 

[tree farmer]

The only way the roots would not release excess carbonate ions or H+ protons is if there is no excess water to release them into. That would mean so liitle water that the roots actually suckup soo much water that they external suraces were dry immediattly after spraying. The palny ts sroots are obviously receiving more than that or they would ceases to live. Your plants are just rece veing enough water that the roots are releasing the excess carbonate ion or H+ protons and they just build up on the roots surface only to remixed with the next spraying, and then both the initial and the new amount would end up on the roots exterior surface etc untill an excess of fluids would allow the removal of all the carbonate or H+ protons from the roots exterior surface. You also have to consider that the size, position and bushiness of the palnts arealso going to determine the reatio of nitrate to ammonium nitrogen it takes up sand that will change the pH of the drainage water from each plant. Plus if the size difference is do to the larger palnt being a different phenotype its uptakes will also be different.
Can you just up the size of the mister mainly feeding the largest plants roots, or is it impossible to access it with the plants and roots being too large? Or maybeput a Tee fitting on your feed line outside the pod and just install another small flow mister to feed the larger plant more.

i have an individual ball valve going to each pod and have thought of turning the valve a litttle closed on the smaller ones and leaving the valve to the big one wide open then increasing the misting to all them. but im not sure it would work because with such a short mist pulse (.5 sec) and the length of tubing going to each pod im affraid this would result in no real mist but just more of a splash on the 3 with the valve closed a little.

im not sure the low runoff from the big one is actually affecting its growth just was wondering about the H released in the absence of water. if i think it is developing slower than the others than ill try something but for now in the absence of any visual evidence it is hindering it im going to just let it as is. i have increased the mist to .5 every 4.5 minutes instead of .5 every 5 minute and will continue decreasing the pause time as they get bigger to see what if any effect this has. im also going to be a little more aggressive on the ec level going into flower as last time these girls sister wasnt happy as the other three were and started yellowing and dropping fans to early. so this time im going to keep the nitrogen higher for a couple weeks in and also try and keep the overall ec a bit higher without causing any nute issues. the mother of these developed some nice fat fruit starting early so im sure these should follow thier mother.

 

[sherriberry]

what are you guys thoughts on putting a UV light filter tube that the res water would circulate through...

i think it would hurt the nutes and beneficial bacteria.

or would the beneficial bacteria stay on the roots, and then all water is kept sanitized by the UV light.

what do you think?

 

[sherriberry]

i am getting this... and they have a uv light as an option. obviously, killing any bacteria before it goes into my clean water RO res is nice... but wondering if i should get an extra and just put that in the nute water res as well.

http://www.purewaterclub.com/

the 107 dollar one.

anyway... if you click it, you will see it comes with a needle valve... im wondering if that needle valve can pierce metal plumbing, or if its only for plastic.

im going to try and tie into my bathtub cold water line, and then just have this thing run all day, and have it dump into a big trash can or barrel.

thanks guys

 

[clydefrog]

To understand lock out you need to understand buffering, the electrical attraction of ions and pH. A simple explanation dealing with just basic (high pH) buffering portion: At low pH ie below 7.5 nearly all carbonates are bicarbonates (HCO3&#8722. They neutralize negative ions (basic pH causing ions). Initially bicarbonates are formed from carbonic acid (H2CO3), which is formed from dissolved CO2 in water. This quickly turns to Bicarbonate.

The bicarbonate is the actual buffer. What is attached to that buffer is what is consider locked out. Bicarbonates are formed in water, very few are available as salts. For example Potassium bicarbonate is only formed in water it is not in nature found as a salt.

Back to the subject. bicarbonate typically forms up in pairs (HCO3&#87222. This means it has a negative 2 charge. With a negative 2 charge that means it will glom (nice scientific word) onto a cationic ion with a two charge. IE it will draw a Ca++ or a Magnesium++ cation usually. Ca++ has a stronger charge than a Mg++ as it has a larger radius so typically the bicarbonate ties up the Calcium, especially as there is more Calcium present than Magnesium so it has a greater chance of bumping into (another great scientific expression) a calcium ion than a magnesium ion.

A Potassium ion has only a plus one charge and simply can not compete as well in forming up with the bicarb unless they are in high numbers. Hence some manufacturers use a lot of Potassium versus a lot of calcium so as to have the excess potassium tied up instead of calcium and magnesium. Now the bones of the story: every time more + ions are taken up by the plants roots IE nitrate, a carbonate ion is released which gloms onto positive charged ion(s). IE tied up + ions and a higher pH as the balance has switch to less excess H+ protons.

The out of wack pH is simply a result of releases of H+ or (HCO3&#8722 by the roots in order to maintain a ionic balance. This causes a pH changes as pH is basically dependent on the amount of H+ protons above the number of OH- ions. This means if there are more extra H+ protons your pH will be acidic and if there are less H+ than OH- the pH will be basic (above pH 7). This is directly related in our nutrient water to the level of buffers so that directly ties in with the tied up ions. The tie up is also related to the fact that a 2+ ion has a strong attractive/holding force so it does not readily let go once formed into a bicarbonate compound.

that makes sense...i had read about lockout in conjunction with salt buildup in growing media, but if i understand you correctly, the ions are tied up at the point of dissolution in the reservoir, if conditions are right.