Lucas Formula Recipe from Scratch "Really"

[YouGrowBoy]

I've been e-mailing with Crop King about buying their chemicals for fertilizer. It appears I can buy their Micro Mix of the following micro-nutrients - Manganese, Boron, Copper, Zinc and Molybdinum. One of their employees wrote me saying.

"If you can tell me the target in ppm for each of the micro nutrients, we can make up a mix that will deliver that to the plants when diluted as we will instruct. Each gallon of Micro Mix will provide enough micro nutrients for about 25,000 gallons of feed strength fertilizer."

Link to Crop King Micro Mix

The recipe that is posted in this thread calls for ppm's of

Nitrogen 270 ----- 5.2% as NH4 (ammonium)
Phosphorus 79
Potassium 250
Magnesium 90
Calcium 281
Sulfur 119
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Using the ppm's given above, CK should be able to custom make a mix of the micro nutes (in bold) for their Micro Mix. Correct?

I figure I can buy the remaining chemicals,

Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Iron Chelate
MonoPotassium Phosphate
Magnesium Sulfate

mix them them as previously instructed, add the appropriate amount of Micro Mix to complete the recipe. Right?

Is there anything wrong with this picture? am i missing something?

YGB

 

[tea tree]

gh three part is cheap. burp. . .


jk

cool they make that per specifaction.

 

[fatman7574]

I've been e-mailing with Crop King about buying their chemicals for fertilizer. It appears I can buy their Micro Mix of the following micro-nutrients - Manganese, Boron, Copper, Zinc and Molybdinum. One of their employees wrote me saying.

"If you can tell me the target in ppm for each of the micro nutrients, we can make up a mix that will deliver that to the plants when diluted as we will instruct. Each gallon of Micro Mix will provide enough micro nutrients for about 25,000 gallons of feed strength fertilizer."
Link to Crop King Micro Mix

The recipe that is posted in this thread calls for ppm's of

Nitrogen 270 ----- 5.2% as NH4 (ammonium)
Phosphorus 79
Potassium 250
Magnesium 90
Calcium 281
Sulfur 119
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Using the ppm's given above, CK should be able to custom make a mix of the micro nutes (in bold) for their Micro Mix. Correct?

I figure I can buy the remaining chemicals,

Calcium Nitrate
Potassium Nitrate
Iron Chelate
MonoPotassium Phosphate
Magnesium Sulfate

mix them them as previously instructed, add the appropriate amount of Micro Mix to complete the recipe. Right?

Is there anything wrong with this picture? am i missing something?

YGB

First off it is obvious it would be only a 2500 to 1 concentarte not a 25,000 gallon to 1 mix. A 25,00 to one mix would require the dissolved over 16 pounds of metal sulfates into just one gallon of water.

The simple way you can positively tell they are not supplying a micro mix for 25,000 gallons diluted is they advertise the shipping weight at 10 pounds "Shipping Weight: 10lbs". You can not put 16 pounds of something in a one gallon jug with about 8.35 pounds of water and end up with 10 pounds, but you can add 1.6 pounds to 8.35 pounds and end up with about 10 pounds.

A 2,500 to one mix would mean about 1.6 pounds. Even figuring their lost cost micro nutrients at $3.44 per pound they would be selling you a minimum of $55 worth of salts premixed for half price and they eta the labor and price of the jug and label. It is much more likely that they would sell you $5.50 worth of salts with a jug for $27.

That 2,500 gallon concentrate is far from a good deal for you, but an excellent one for them. To buy the ingrediants they supply in their micro mix in pounds except instead buy the molybdenum from eBay would cost only $32.60 versus the $27 per gallon for their mixed micro in a jug.

You still need to buy the iron chelate anyway. It is cheaper on Ebay by about $10. http://cgi.ebay.com/SEQUESTRENE-330-FE-CHELATED-IRON-10-QUICK-GREEN-5-LBS_W0QQitemZ320449799266QQcmdZViewItemQQptZFertilizer_Soil_Amendments?hash=item4a9c4be462

The real expense in the bulk trace elements is in the chelated iron which would not be in the trace element solution they sent you anyway.

Plus you would be paying for the cost of shipping about 8 pounds of water and jug versus four pounds od salts. You can save on the large expense for the molybdenum by buying a smaller amount than Crop King sells through the eBay link I supplied earlier. Crop King is not offering to do you any real favors they are simply offering you a deal that makes them a greater profit.

Here is what they will sell you for $27 premixed but without the iron. The iron must be added to Part A of your regular fertilizer.

ppm

Iron 10.00 not supplied

Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Iron Chelate 33.75 not supplied

Part B

Manganese Sulfate 6.723
Boric Acid / Solubor 9.188
Zinc Sulfate 7.285
Copper Sulfate 1.470
Ammonium Molybdate .061 = 1.71 grams

Volume of Stock Solutions 1 gallon
Dilution Rate 2500 not 25,000


As you can see it takes approx half a pound of each of the the top ingrediants, so for those they are charging double. For the copper they are cgharging about a 800% mark up and on the Moly they are charging an even larger market up as it takes less than $2 worth of Moly for a 2500 gallon batch.

Either you made a typo, the email sender made a typo or the person sending the email is an idiot or just being deceptive in saying feed strength. Why would nayone feed at 1/10 the formula strength. requested in ppm's. Yepper the dude is an idiot or a liar.

 

[YouGrowBoy]

First off it is obvious it would be only a 2500 to 1 concentarte not a 25,000 gallon to 1 mix. A 25,00 to one mix would require the dissolved over 16 pounds of metal sulfates into just one gallon of water.

Here is what they will sell you for $27 premixed but without the iron. The iron must be added to Part A of your regular fertilizer.

ppm

Iron 10.00 not supplied

Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Iron Chelate 33.75 not supplied

Part B

Manganese Sulfate 6.723
Boric Acid / Solubor 9.188
Zinc Sulfate 7.285
Copper Sulfate 1.470
Ammonium Molybdate .061 = 1.71 grams

Volume of Stock Solutions 1 gallon
Dilution Rate 2500 not 25,000

As you can see it takes approx half a pound of each of the the top ingrediants, so for those they are charging double. For the copper they are cgharging about a 800% mark up and on the Moly they are charging an even larger market up as it takes less than $2 worth of Moly for a 2500 gallon batch.

I wrote to CK and asked about the dilution rate. Here is their response.

"One gallon of Micro Mix will make 5 50 gallon batches of concentrate. Each 50 gallons of concentrate is diluted 1:100 through the injectors. Therefore 5 x 50 x 100 = 25,000 gallons of feed solution."

One question I have is, are the ppm's in your recipe the ppm's of the concentrated stock or the final diluted mix?

YGB

 

[fatman7574]

And that will give you a concentration of one tenth of the amount required. for the formulation I gave you. So unless you intend to dilute the formual I gave you 1000 to 1 instead of 100 to one they are just jacking you around to make a sell. I will emuail the idiots to see just waht they are saying the ppm of their finished diltution will be. I have sent them an email. Hopefully they will answer.

 

[patlpp]

That would put it at 1c a gallon ?.... Somebody at King missed a decimal somewhere

 

[fatman7574]

That would put it at 1c a gallon ?.... Somebody at King missed a decimal somewhere

I would hope it is an honest error and not an intentional attemp at deception. If it is an error I think they owe YouGrowBoy a free gallon of Micro Mix custom mixed. A decimal point error is not acceptable for a custom nutrient mixer who is quite dependent on worth of mouth for sells. The mj growers market is a very lucrative market so I am sure they do not want to screw this up nand have it plastered online in a bad manner.

 

[fatman7574]

Just received a reply from Crop King:

Dear *****:
I have probably been talking to and e-mailing your friend. This is the first that specific levels on the ingredients have been mentioned. The targets are in the range of 10 times as high as our usual mix. That probably accounts for the factor of 10 difference.
We could mix such a recipe and you would need to make the final dilution 2500 gallons.
Jim Brown

"Jim Brown" [email protected]

I have no idea why they use such dilute formulas unless they are using them for soil grows rather than Inert Hydro. The micro nutrient ppm levels I use in my formulations are pretty much the industry standard for inert gydro. In fact some Mj specific formulas actually run even a little higher ppm's for Iron. However also to be considered my formualtions are nearly always for a 2.7 EC and nearly no one uses it full strength. About 1.7 to 1.9 is about tops. An EC of 0.27 is absurd for inert hydro though. Soil, maybe.

So they will sell you 2,500 to one concentrate for $27 not 25,000 to one.

I would just buy the bulk ingrediants.

 

[YouGrowBoy]

Just received a reply from Crop King:

Dear *****:
I have probably been talking to and e-mailing your friend. This is the first that specific levels on the ingredients have been mentioned. The targets are in the range of 10 times as high as our usual mix. That probably accounts for the factor of 10 difference.
We could mix such a recipe and you would need to make the final dilution 2500 gallons.
Jim Brown

"Jim Brown" [email protected]

I have no idea why they use such dilute formulas unless they are using them for soil grows rather than Inert Hydro. The micro nutrient ppm levels I use in my formulations are pretty much the industry standard for inert gydro. In fact some Mj specific formulas actually run even a little higher ppm's for Iron. However also to be considered my formualtions are nearly always for a 2.7 EC and nearly no one uses it full strength. About 1.7 to 1.9 is about tops. An EC of 0.27 is absurd for inert hydro though. Soil, maybe.

So they will sell you 2,500 to one concentrate for $27 not 25,000 to one.

I would just buy the bulk ingrediants.

Fatman, Thanks for the follow up and getting a straight answer. Jim is the guy I was e-mailing with.

I'm going to look around where I live to see if I can find what I need. I hate paying so much for shipping and also a little paranoid to have so much chemical shipped to me. That's why the micro mix looked interesting.

I will be making my own, but I'm not in a big hurry.

 

[squarepush3r]

any comments on this as a Micro mix, to tailor how you wanted later?

 

[patlpp]

What is the N-P-K of part 'B" ??

 

[fatman7574]

any comments on this as a Micro mix, to tailor how you wanted later?

It is at least a 300 to one concentration micro formulation. It is definitely designed to use with their own formulation though as they threw in the Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Magnesium to keep growers from using it as a micro mix for other brands of nutrients. I would not recommend that it be used as the micro portion for other nutrients mixes as it contains a butt load of Phosphorous and Potash even if diluted 300 to one. A 100 to 1 dilution would be 1400 ppm phosphorous and 2400 ppm potassium or 466 ppm and 800 ppm diluted 300 to 1.

 

[clydefrog]

so i don't understand the necessity to mix your nutrients in solution ahead of time. could you not mix the dry ingredients together and add them to your rez by the half teaspoon (or whatever measurement it came out to be) whenever you topped it off?

 

[fatman7574]

As long as you keep the Part A ingredients separate from the Part B ingredients and keep them in moisture proof containers you could do that. Just divide your total weight for each part by your dilution (IE 100 to 1 etc) factor or use a EC meter. If you try adding the Part A and Part B both at the same time it is quite likely some precipitates would form. There is however no reason to need to mix everything into a concentrate except that it guarantees the nutrients are well mixed where as in a powder/granular/crystalline form the different densities and particle sizes would cause different settling rates so you would need to throughly mix the dry ingredients before each use. A jug just requires a couple shakes.

 

[squarepush3r]

It is at least a 300 to one concentration micro formulation. It is definitely designed to use with their own formulation though as they threw in the Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium and Magnesium to keep growers from using it as a micro mix for other brands of nutrients. I would not recommend that it be used as the micro portion for other nutrients mixes as it contains a butt load of Phosphorous and Potash even if diluted 300 to one. A 100 to 1 dilution would be 1400 ppm phosphorous and 2400 ppm potassium or 466 ppm and 800 ppm diluted 300 to 1.

Fatman, what would you think of using that Micro and P-K formula, and just adding Nitrogen?

 

[fatman7574]

any comments on this as a Micro mix, to tailor how you wanted later?

This left hand numbers show the ppm’s of the Present Vita Grow Micro
Nitrogen 400 New Level 3600 ppm
Phosphorus 1399
Potassium 2399
Magnesium 300
Calcium 00 New Level 1600 ppm
Sulfur 398
Iron 30.00
Manganese 15.00
Boron 6.00
Zinc 4.00
Copper 4.00

Ounces ~ 165.2
Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100

You need to add 3200 ppm of Nitrate and 1600 pm of calcium to balance the NPK using the calcium nitrate. That would mean adding 273.2 ounces to each 165.2 ounces of the Vita Grow Micro. Or simply add 1.65 ounces of sodium nitrate per each 1 ounce of the Vita Grow Micro. This is a very strong concentrate. The Micro levels would tend to indicate needing to dilute at a rate of 300 to 1 while the Major nutrients would tend to indicate the need to dilute at a rate of at least 900 to 1. This should be OK with likely only a chance of an Iron deficiency during budding if you allow the pH to rise and stay above 5.6 to any large extent.

This left hand numbers show the ppm’s of the Present Vita Grow Micro
Nitrogen 400 New Level 3600 ppm
Phosphorus 1399
Potassium 2399
Magnesium 300
Calcium 00 New Level 1600 ppm
Sulfur 398
Iron 30.00
Manganese 15.00
Boron 6.00
Zinc 4.00
Copper 4.00

Ounces ~ 165.2
Volume of Stock Solutions 1
Dilution Rate 100

You need to add 3200 ppm of Nitrate and 1600 pm of calcium to balance the NPK using the calcium nitrate. That would mean adding 273.2 ounces to each 165.2 ounces of the Vita Grow Micro. Or simply add 1.65 ounces of sodium nitrate per each 1 ounce of the Vita Grow Micro. This is a very strong concentrate. The Micro levels would tend to indicate needing to dilute at a rate of 300 to 1 while the Major nutrients would tend to indicate the need to dilute at a rate of at least 900 to 1. This should be OK with likely only a chance of an Iron deficiency during budding if you allow the pH to rise and stay above 5.6 to any large extent.
You would also need to very heavily aerate the nutrient soltion after n mixing it as the manafacturer states less than 2% chlorine. Lets say 1.99%. That means 199 ppm. That is one huge load odf chlorine. Like about 200 to 800 times as much as in tap water. It will blow off with strong aeration with a pump or air stones as long as it is diluted and in an open contianer with a large surface area ie Rubber Maid tote etc.

 

[clydefrog]

so i've been looking around at some of the commercial ferts around and nobody, i mean nobody even comes close to the level of iron you're using...even some iron specific stuff for poinsettias.

is mj an iron specific feeder? did you notice iron deficiencies in some of your grows?

just curious.

 

[fatman7574]

Poinsettias, wow you must be reading to much of that dirt growing Uncle Ben's info to be talking poinsettas?

Here are a few examples of industry standards for different crops and ornamentals: Roses 17.5 Spinach 28, Peas 17.5, Peppers 17.5. Actually the majority of food and ornamentals grown hydroponically havve nutrient formulations with iron at 17.5 to 20 ppm. I am not sure what formulations you are looking at or if your even looking at formulas for inert hydro.

I do not use a large dose of iron at 10 ppm, even for a mj specific hydro formula. That is pretty much standard for inert hydro where pH is low at below 6. AN actually starts at 10 ppm and actually goes up to 12, 13 or even 20 ppm with its Sensi formulas. GH pretty much sticks to about 10 ppm, however a few formulations are at 12 ppm. mj does like its iron and iron deficiencies are quite common when using formulations with low concentrations of iron. Iron is also tied up quite often in different compounds and is very prone to precipitation if the pH rises above 6.5 for even an instant.

You also have to consider the fertilizer industry has gotten to the point that they a call any system where a soluble fertilizer is the chief source of fertilizer as hydro. That means potting soil grows, cocaonout fiber grows and even out door soil grows fed with soluble fertilizer are now being called hydro. Soil grows use less iron as the nutrients accumalate in soil, they do not accumulatte in an inert media.

 

[clydefrog]

Poinsettias, wow you must be reading to much of that dirt growing Uncle Ben's info to be talking poinsettas?

Here are a few examples of industry standards for different crops and ornamentals: Roses 17.5 Spinach 28, Peas 17.5, Peppers 17.5. Actually the majority of food and ornamentals grown hydroponically havve nutrient formulations with iron at 17.5 to 20 ppm. I am not sure what formulations you are looking at or if your even looking at formulas for inert hydro.

I do not use a large dose of iron at 10 ppm, even for a mj specific hydro formula. That is pretty much standard for inert hydro where pH is low at below 6. AN actually starts at 10 ppm and actually goes up to 12, 13 or even 20 ppm with its Sensi formulas. GH pretty much sticks to about 10 ppm, however a few formulations are at 12 ppm. mj does like its iron and iron deficiencies are quite common when using formulations with low concentrations of iron. Iron is also tied up quite often in different compounds and is very prone to precipitation if the pH rises above 6.5 for even an instant.

You also have to consider the fertilizer industry has gotten to the point that they a call any system where a soluble fertilizer is the chief source of fertilizer as hydro. That means potting soil grows, cocaonout fiber grows and even out door soil grows fed with soluble fertilizer are now being called hydro. Soil grows use less iron as the nutrients accumalate in soil, they do not accumulatte in an inert media.

no i think i was just getting my decimal points in the wrong place. i've been checking out some of the ws stuff (jacks, peters) my horticulture supplier stocks. thats all.

 

[fatman7574]

no i think i was just getting my decimal points in the wrong place. i've been checking out some of the ws stuff (jacks, peters) my horticulture supplier stocks. thats all.

If they list in % instead of ppm just multiply times 100 to get the ppm.