Mcgician
Well-Known Member
Haha. It's the professor/chemist from the tv show Breaking Bad. You should definitely check it out. It's right up your alley, except for the big difference in product. The new season is coming up soon. Can't friggin' wait!
Lucas Formula Recipe from Scratch "Really"
- Thread starter fatman7574
- Start date
- Status
fatman7574
New Member
This is what I am using adjusted for easy mixing and very minimal chance of precipitaion in concentrate conainers. It is a bit strong and a batch just over 5 gallons ie 2.5 gallons each of Part A and Part B. It will dilute at 100 to 1, so for a nutrient solution EC of 2.7 (TDS 1729 ppm) it will make just over 500 gallons. At a more reasonable EC say 1.35 for a TDS of approximately 865 ppm it will mix up to over 1000 gallons. Total cost of fertilzers and metal salts. About $15, therefore 3 dollars per gallon.
So if used at a TDS of 865 ppm it would cost 10 cents per day with a 50 gallon reservoir dumped and refilled once per week.
fatman's Bloom Formula (ratio 3.2 : 1 : 3.5)
ppm
Nitrogen 240
Phosphorus 74
Potassium 261
Magnesium 84
Calcium 235
Sulfur 111
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 82.2
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
Iron Chelate 7.14
Part B
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.47
TDS 1729
pH 5.8
So if used at a TDS of 865 ppm it would cost 10 cents per day with a 50 gallon reservoir dumped and refilled once per week.
fatman's Bloom Formula (ratio 3.2 : 1 : 3.5)
ppm
Nitrogen 240
Phosphorus 74
Potassium 261
Magnesium 84
Calcium 235
Sulfur 111
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 82.2
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
Iron Chelate 7.14
Part B
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.47
TDS 1729
pH 5.8
YouGrowBoy
Well-Known Member
After reading and re-reading numerous threads, I'm final getting a handle on this.
You call it Fatmans bloom formula. Generally speaking, I was under the impression a decent grow formula is 3:1:2 (close to your bloom numbers) and bloom is closer 1:4:2. I know these are not exact numbers but just general guidelines.
Is the formula above used exclusively throughout the entire grow without any changes or additives?
Also please let me know if I have this correct.
To make Part A I add
82.2oz (5.13lbs) Calcium Nitrate
15.6oz (.98lb) Potassium Nitrate
7.14oz (.45lb) Iron Chelate
to 2.5gl RO water?
That's nearly 7lbs of dry chemical to 2.5 gallons of water for part A, and Part B gets about 6.5lbs of chemical to 2.5 gallons of water. Is this correct?
Unless these chemicals come in liquid and not dry it seems like it might be difficult to mix. I've never done this before so I'm trying to learn proper mixing technique as well.
Also, if using RO water is any additional cal-mag needed? It doesn't seem so with the amount of Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate already in the mix.
YGB
Gixxerboy
Well-Known Member
Yes I used some in a pinch one time but one thing to note about fish tank gravel is that it is alot heavier than Hydrotone by comparsion in the same size pot.
fatman7574
New Member
Avoid the small gravel as it provides to little open pore space for adquate oxygen. ie the sand packs or settles down to much. Some growers do use small particle sized gravel/sand for cloning.
fatman7574
New Member
The 3:1:2 is a general formulation for MJ specific growing. It is not specific to MJ hydro grows or MJ aero grows. The presently supplied formulation is specific to hydro aero grows for predominantly indica and afghani strains. If the predominance runs to more sativa then more calcium and nitrogen is needed.
Seldom is more phosphorus needed uless you have a lot of pH rises which locks up Phosphorus. However it is supplied my the phosphorus supplied by the phosphoric acid you use to up the pH when it declines. However, if you are using a pH up with both phosphoric acid and nitric acid, such as Dyna-Gro's ph Down formula then the phosphorus level will be slightly low as they use both Nitric and Phosphoric acid to their pH down. However, I do not recommend the Dyna-Gro pH up or pH down or any other retail pH up or pH down formula as they are rediculously priced and they foolishly add buffers to their formulas that do not increase the nutrient buffer levels. The buffers are immediattely used to neutralize the acid or alkalines as soon as added.
You can not accummulate buffers in a system beyond that allowed by the solutions ionic balance (pH) without changing the pH so at best all you can is restore it to its previous level. You do that as soon as you raise or lower the pH. Essentially they add ineffective/not needed buffers likely just as a marketing gimmick. They get to say, "our products contain buffers." They do not bother to say they are not effective.
To be honest it is just best to consider that hydroponic neutrients have no buffering capacity as it truly has only a very minute amount of buffering capacity. Each time a buffer is used up it ties up either some potassium or some phosporus. Adjsuting the pH wouth either Pottasium hydroxide or Phosphoric acid restores the amount lost through buffering.
fatman's Veg Formulation
Ratio 3.25 : 1 : 3.54
(The higher Potassium is to raise the EC proportionally so as to adjust nutrient uptakes.)
Nitrogen 267
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 291
Magnesium 93
Calcium 261
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09
Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 91.5
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
Iron Chelate 7.14
Part B
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
MonoPotassium Phosphate 27.3
Magnesium Sulfate 66.4
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions
5.3 gallons
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.75
pH 5.8
TDS 1925
The Formulations are at the same EC and pH so that its additions to dilution water are the same amount for either Bloom or Grow. Therefore you can use the same dilutions when switching over g from what you use as a full strenghth Grow EC to yourr matching full strength Bloom at the same EC by using the same Dilution. This means no stress to the plants when switching formulas.
You will need to adjust your pH if adding a supplement like sodium silicate. Sodium siliate will up your pH by about one full point if added at the recomended strength to a new nutrient mix. Adding phosphoric acid will lower the pH back down and supply the added phosphorus some think is needed.
I am presently testing formulations with sodium chloride added so as to decrease the need for so much Potassium. Potassium is a calcium and magnesium antagonist and therefore limit their availability for uptake. Sodium chloride is not an antagonist, but both chloride and sodium is toxic at high levels. With regularly changed reservoirs or drain to waste this would not be an issue, but for those who use very small resrvoirs proportional to plant numbers this would mean both the sodium and chloride would incraese quickly if the reservoir was often topped off with more nutrients between changes.
patlpp
New Member
Great info Fatman as usual. Now I don't want to get this into a AN slug-fest thing but I went out and bought a qt of Sensi A & B because you hate it so much !! You raised my curiosity so much I wanted to experiment with it!! See? Your helping Big Mike in a bizarre way. OK, Your primo veg formula above is almost that of the Sensi A/B. The difference being (.15-0-.7) and throw a little Epsom salt in to boost Mg. It is very comparable in price to the classic LUCAS. In fact, I found it dose for dose equal to GH Lucas. That GH micro is expensive . My question is :what differences are there between the Fatman Veg formula and the AN Sensi grow A/B other than the .7 - K difference? Are you willing to bow down to Fat Mike and say he is basically spot on with his Sensi soup? Again, you are the fucking man but I needs to know.
fatman7574
New Member
AN slug fest? Bow down to Fat Mikie for coming up with a Veg and Bloom formulas I have started posting in the MJ growing forums for over two years before he started mixing and selling his Sensi Formulas? Not very likely. Especially since "his" formulations cost a great deal more that any manafacturer with any ethics or morals should ever consider charging. Fat Mikie is just a parasite who never comes up with original formulas of his own. He either uses others formulas with a slight alteration at most or simply drags out decades old formulas that have been created by University Researchers at the expense of commercial agricultural growers, agricultural fertilzer manafacturers or federal tax payer dollars. His touted researcher is simply an old retired university researcher who just merely accesses old university research developed formulations and test data and dusts them off and uses that information to mix up products to sell to deep pocket medical and stash MJ growers. Even his supplements are all old hat university research supplements. No MJ specific manafacturer spends the time or money to do any original research when there is an easier cheaper way. Just use some one elses formulation based upon that persons research or simply just drag out old research data on supplements that were considered unecomomical to use on agricultural products due to increased yield of finished product not being able to even cover the cost of the supplements (this does not hold true to a crop that has a huge value such as MJ). Duh.
Consider this scenario: if there are a hundred experienced growers with a broad enough knowledge of nutrient chemistry that formulate and test their MJ specific nutrient formulations that post their formulation data to the internet grow sites, do you think Fat Mikie is not going to take for his own that information that can simply be used free of charge without asking permission or paying to do the same reserach testing. Which is easier, faster and cheaper for Fat MiKie, simply using free reasrch dat or paying some one to do original reasrch at a great experience and a long time period. He needs to make his money off the MJ growers while he can. If and or whem pot is ever decriminalized by the US Feds he will no longer be able to sell his stuff at huge profits as the market will be flooded with MJ specific fertilizers sold by the huge number of US fertilizer manafacturers? Dooh! That is another reason when Mikie gives his pitifully small donations to Norml it matters so liitle as he has no desire for pot to be leaglized or decriminalized as his real profits are because of pot being illegal in the US. It is h just another marketing scam. Anyone who buy's Fat Mikie's crap about him being on the side of the marijuana growing community is very naive. He is not on the side of the grower of medical MJ or small stash growers of MJ. He is only on the side of the commercial growers whose profit is also based on the illegality of pot and pot growing, who also are making huge profits while they can. He and they are both doing their parts to keep the prices of pot as high as possible by making it appear that pot is expensive to grow and that that justifies the high prices for pot and pot specific fertilzers. Hell look at the cost of mj seeds. The suppliers of those seeds are making huge profits. Their profits are so huge they make the profits of commercial mj growers look very pitiful. They do not provide information on their sites so that a medical Mj or stash gower can grow mj cheaper or easier. They also do not want mj legalized. They provide the sites so that they can sell more seeds and make what as much as they can until mj is legalized and the prices of mj seeds drop to the cost of vegetable seeds.
Bow down to Fat Mikie. What a joke. You were just trying to be humorous right?
Or perhaps you just want me to just send my research information to Fat Mikie rather than posting to MJ growing forums free of charge. Apparently you like that Fat Mikie drives a Hummer, Bently, and Mercedes as well as thee fact living in a million dollar plus home because he is raking in the money selling Mj specific fertilizers at huge profits to medical MJ growers and private stash growers. It is very, very unlikely that any large commercial MJ growers use his products or those of Canna, Botanicare or GH. Any non MJ growers who pay the cost for hydro nutrients from MJ specific manafactures are really uneducated in the area of hydroponic nutrients.
Bow down to a lying ass, whiney parasite that lives off of ripping off MJ growers and by utilizing the research work of others as if it was his own. Wow that is funny.
I also have a Sativa specific formulation and a dominant Indica crossed with Sativa specific formulation, as well as some low temp formulations for specific strains and crosses. I have quite a few specific formulations. Fat Mikie's Sativa formulation is not spot on even for Sativa grown indoors hydroponically, unless you grow and bud slowly, because if you grow and bud quickly with indoor hydro your Sativa will finish with a bunch of mono leaves that have to be manicured off the buds because they are yellowing due to a nitrogen deficiency. His Sativa formulation would be better suited for a Northern California outdoor Sativa grow. Actually though that is even debatable as Northern Califormia out door grows of a Sativa would be better with a fertilizer like Dyna-Gro that contains more ammonium nitrogen.
Consider this scenario: if there are a hundred experienced growers with a broad enough knowledge of nutrient chemistry that formulate and test their MJ specific nutrient formulations that post their formulation data to the internet grow sites, do you think Fat Mikie is not going to take for his own that information that can simply be used free of charge without asking permission or paying to do the same reserach testing. Which is easier, faster and cheaper for Fat MiKie, simply using free reasrch dat or paying some one to do original reasrch at a great experience and a long time period. He needs to make his money off the MJ growers while he can. If and or whem pot is ever decriminalized by the US Feds he will no longer be able to sell his stuff at huge profits as the market will be flooded with MJ specific fertilizers sold by the huge number of US fertilizer manafacturers? Dooh! That is another reason when Mikie gives his pitifully small donations to Norml it matters so liitle as he has no desire for pot to be leaglized or decriminalized as his real profits are because of pot being illegal in the US. It is h just another marketing scam. Anyone who buy's Fat Mikie's crap about him being on the side of the marijuana growing community is very naive. He is not on the side of the grower of medical MJ or small stash growers of MJ. He is only on the side of the commercial growers whose profit is also based on the illegality of pot and pot growing, who also are making huge profits while they can. He and they are both doing their parts to keep the prices of pot as high as possible by making it appear that pot is expensive to grow and that that justifies the high prices for pot and pot specific fertilzers. Hell look at the cost of mj seeds. The suppliers of those seeds are making huge profits. Their profits are so huge they make the profits of commercial mj growers look very pitiful. They do not provide information on their sites so that a medical Mj or stash gower can grow mj cheaper or easier. They also do not want mj legalized. They provide the sites so that they can sell more seeds and make what as much as they can until mj is legalized and the prices of mj seeds drop to the cost of vegetable seeds.
Bow down to Fat Mikie. What a joke. You were just trying to be humorous right?
Or perhaps you just want me to just send my research information to Fat Mikie rather than posting to MJ growing forums free of charge. Apparently you like that Fat Mikie drives a Hummer, Bently, and Mercedes as well as thee fact living in a million dollar plus home because he is raking in the money selling Mj specific fertilizers at huge profits to medical MJ growers and private stash growers. It is very, very unlikely that any large commercial MJ growers use his products or those of Canna, Botanicare or GH. Any non MJ growers who pay the cost for hydro nutrients from MJ specific manafactures are really uneducated in the area of hydroponic nutrients.
Bow down to a lying ass, whiney parasite that lives off of ripping off MJ growers and by utilizing the research work of others as if it was his own. Wow that is funny.
I also have a Sativa specific formulation and a dominant Indica crossed with Sativa specific formulation, as well as some low temp formulations for specific strains and crosses. I have quite a few specific formulations. Fat Mikie's Sativa formulation is not spot on even for Sativa grown indoors hydroponically, unless you grow and bud slowly, because if you grow and bud quickly with indoor hydro your Sativa will finish with a bunch of mono leaves that have to be manicured off the buds because they are yellowing due to a nitrogen deficiency. His Sativa formulation would be better suited for a Northern California outdoor Sativa grow. Actually though that is even debatable as Northern Califormia out door grows of a Sativa would be better with a fertilizer like Dyna-Gro that contains more ammonium nitrogen.
fatman7574
New Member
patlpp
Actually most corporations, even defense contractors, are doing good if they make a 110 to 130 percent return on their investments. Milking fat Mikie is likely making at least a 500 to 800 percent return on his investments. The other mj specific nutrient manfacturers have much higher overheads and are making about half the return on their investments as Milking fat Mikie.
If you choose to go the retail route of the Mj specific manfacturers that is up to you. I am sure your desire to be lazy over powers your any desires to profit more than the mj nutrients suppliers you spend your money on. Even though you are the one taking all the chances buy illegally growing mj and not them.
I have given you more than adeequate information for you to make your choices. Just realise if you use Mikie's Sensi formulation inside for hydro at high temps you will need to add some Calcium Nitrate during budding to not have yellow on your mono leaves.
Mono leaves on good Sativa buds as well as Indica or Afghani buds are usually not removed in manicuring but are supposed to be green and covered with resin, not starting to yellow and turn brown at the tips.
If you do not like my ways of writing or replying to your insults m nor care for my opinons of mj nutrients manafacturers then you can simply not read my replies or post to my thread. Or better yet just put me on yourignore list. There did not appear to be any humor at all in what you wrote about my bowing down to Fat Mikie, nor do I see any humor in my fertilzer formulation being called the FAG formula. I consider that an insult not a show of respect for my my shared knowledge or contributions. I am quite sure even a non heterosexual would also consider the FG formula an insult.
Obviously you are not at all aware how expensive it is for any contractor to produce equipment for the military. I am quite ware of the costs minvolved. I am quite aware that the reason small contractors do not supply the miltary is because they can not afford to meet all the requirements that the milltary emposes on its suppliers or contractors.
As far as I am concerned you can do your lazy *ss part to buy Fat Mikie another Hummer if you so please. So sweat off my behind.
I do not, will not, and likely never will give any of the mj specific nutrient manafacturers the thumbs up. I do not think well of any of the mj specific nutrient manafcurers that are exploiting mJ growers. Are the mj manafacurers nutrient formulations better for mj growing then general plant formulations? Yes. But is the price increase over general plant fertilizers justifiable? No. Did the manfacturers do anything to justify the additional huge markups. No, as even most of their advertisng is just cheap online advertising.
The Lucas formula is not even his formula. It is simply mixing directions for someone elses formulations that works well enough for some growers. The "Lucas formula" is a pair of GH formualtion not a Lucas formulation. It is not even a mixing direction thay even produces a very good growing nutrient mix. Even Lucas is now finally admitting to that. It is just a simple method of mixing up and replenishing a nutrient reservoirs nutrients for a lazy person such as you who has already stated your laziness. He only came up with the lame mixing part not the replenishing part of his "formulation."
Actually most corporations, even defense contractors, are doing good if they make a 110 to 130 percent return on their investments. Milking fat Mikie is likely making at least a 500 to 800 percent return on his investments. The other mj specific nutrient manfacturers have much higher overheads and are making about half the return on their investments as Milking fat Mikie.
If you choose to go the retail route of the Mj specific manfacturers that is up to you. I am sure your desire to be lazy over powers your any desires to profit more than the mj nutrients suppliers you spend your money on. Even though you are the one taking all the chances buy illegally growing mj and not them.
I have given you more than adeequate information for you to make your choices. Just realise if you use Mikie's Sensi formulation inside for hydro at high temps you will need to add some Calcium Nitrate during budding to not have yellow on your mono leaves.
Mono leaves on good Sativa buds as well as Indica or Afghani buds are usually not removed in manicuring but are supposed to be green and covered with resin, not starting to yellow and turn brown at the tips.
If you do not like my ways of writing or replying to your insults m nor care for my opinons of mj nutrients manafacturers then you can simply not read my replies or post to my thread. Or better yet just put me on yourignore list. There did not appear to be any humor at all in what you wrote about my bowing down to Fat Mikie, nor do I see any humor in my fertilzer formulation being called the FAG formula. I consider that an insult not a show of respect for my my shared knowledge or contributions. I am quite sure even a non heterosexual would also consider the FG formula an insult.
Obviously you are not at all aware how expensive it is for any contractor to produce equipment for the military. I am quite ware of the costs minvolved. I am quite aware that the reason small contractors do not supply the miltary is because they can not afford to meet all the requirements that the milltary emposes on its suppliers or contractors.
As far as I am concerned you can do your lazy *ss part to buy Fat Mikie another Hummer if you so please. So sweat off my behind.
I do not, will not, and likely never will give any of the mj specific nutrient manafacturers the thumbs up. I do not think well of any of the mj specific nutrient manafcurers that are exploiting mJ growers. Are the mj manafacurers nutrient formulations better for mj growing then general plant formulations? Yes. But is the price increase over general plant fertilizers justifiable? No. Did the manfacturers do anything to justify the additional huge markups. No, as even most of their advertisng is just cheap online advertising.
The Lucas formula is not even his formula. It is simply mixing directions for someone elses formulations that works well enough for some growers. The "Lucas formula" is a pair of GH formualtion not a Lucas formulation. It is not even a mixing direction thay even produces a very good growing nutrient mix. Even Lucas is now finally admitting to that. It is just a simple method of mixing up and replenishing a nutrient reservoirs nutrients for a lazy person such as you who has already stated your laziness. He only came up with the lame mixing part not the replenishing part of his "formulation."
Gixxerboy
Well-Known Member
fatman's Veg Formulation
Ratio 3.25 : 1 : 3.54
Sensi Grow Ratio 6.2 : 2.2 : 5.7
I guess im lost patlpp but im not getting the difference you are getting i see
(2.95 : 1.2 : 2.16) being the difference between the two ratios it is very early but can you wake me up and show me where you see the difference being (.15-0-.7)?
patlpp
New Member
Divide by 2
YouGrowBoy
Well-Known Member
First Fatman, I know a lot of people thank you and you're probably sick of the puckering but I'm going to anyway. Thank you. I think I can now actually experiment with mixing my own nutes. I'm a cheap bastard that does not want to give the greedy bastards more then they deserve.
Also I compared the two lists of ppm's for your veg and bloom formulas and see Molybdenum .09 is in veg but is excluded from bloom. Is this accurate?
I think I saw in another thread you say all the chemicals can be purchased at local "Feed and Seed" stores. Am I correct here or is there a place on the net you know of for mail delivery of chemicals? This actually scares me a bit, ordering chemicals over the net but when you need it you need it.
YGB
How much would you alter these recipes for sativas grown at 75 to 85 degrees indoors with Co2?
Also I compared the two lists of ppm's for your veg and bloom formulas and see Molybdenum .09 is in veg but is excluded from bloom. Is this accurate?
It is my understanding that sodium silicate is beneficial to cell and cell wall development. Is this used only during veg and at what levels is it added?
I will be following your posts to see where these experiments lead.
I think I saw in another thread you say all the chemicals can be purchased at local "Feed and Seed" stores. Am I correct here or is there a place on the net you know of for mail delivery of chemicals? This actually scares me a bit, ordering chemicals over the net but when you need it you need it.
YGB
patlpp
New Member
I will re-post for clarity my reply posted subsequent to fatmans timed 02:08. I must have deleted it:
Wow, I thought you would catch the humor but I guess I caught you at a bad time,perhaps. If you are finished please answer my question: How is Fat Mikes Sensi A/B so inferior to Fatmans Awesome Grow formula , now dubbed the "FAG" formula? I mean technically? A scientist of your high esteem should be impartial and not go off on a fuckin drunkin', Lithium amplified rant. And please don't bring up the fact that you can mix it up for a fraction of the cost. Hell I could raise a cow and get 1000 gallons of milk from it but that would be a total pain in the ass. You see, I don't want to buy 50# bags of chem. As far as Mike raping the doper? Would you like to go into the amount of profit margins from the likes of Collins (GPS), Motorola (Radio), or Bell (Helos) Corp's selling their products to the military in the name of patriotism?? Makes Mike look like a frickin' Saint.
You post that Lucas sucks so you give Dyno thumbs up (sort of) yet you slam AN because it costs too much, but it is no more expensive than GH and AN has YOUR ratio's. WTF?? Name me a brand where I could walk into a hydro store to pick up, that is closest to your formula, and will work best for hydro in VEG . Would it be SENSI? You yourself said AN is finally getting it with the Sensi formula in another book you posted. Please tell me , I will go out and buy it now because I respect your opinion!! Fuck please read that again ok? If the bottle said nothing but "FAG FORMULA" on it in big red letters for all to see I'd still buy it, that's how much I respect you.
P.S I have also seen the world and am a crusty old fart as you but have a much different background so please try not to be too condescending.
Why do I read your edited post above now and it carries a somewhat different tone from the first time I read it? If you did not intend to be a wise ass I apologize.
Now waking up this morning I see that I did , maybe ,take Fatmans response wrong. For that I'm sorry. I will also apologize for the FAG statements.
However, bare in mind that Fatmans historical threads usually end up in flames so as I correspond, I'm like walking on egg shells and I have an extremely sensitive, defensive mindset coming in.
With that said: Fatman, please explain impartially, weighing all the variables you know, the best product to buy from an average Hydro store that a lazy (or too busy) MMJ/small grower can purchase for an INDOOR ,HYDRO, MJ, INERT MEDIUM,TEMP/HUMIDITY CONTROLLED, VEG grow that produces the best overall yield and takes the least amount of customization?
You see, you may be about to set a precedence here just as pH and LUCAS have with bloom. Is Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 better overall, even though its not totally designed for hydro, compared to Sensi 2-part ? Maybe GH 2-micro 1 bloom and tolerate the Cal issue? Is there yet another vendor that better fulfills the FATMAN formula? What base nute could we use and than supplement with another off-the-shelf product or products that would best be suited for your Sativa/ dominant indica or temperature tailored soup? Please post those soups by the way if you would.
Keep in mind that LUCAS is an admittedly compromising formula designed for simplicity and general success. LUCAS is here to stay for bloom but there still is that Holy Grail of a good VEG formula many need. Give us your verdict, we can take it and work from there, I'm sure many people have these same questions. If you would like I can summarize the pros and cons, based on your past observations , of each of the mentioned vendors formulas and than have you elaborate?
Right now, with all that I have read from you and UB, the closest off-the-shelf veg formula so far to me is AN Sensi. I weighed price, simplicity, availability and volume. Let's hash this out and get really productive here. Thanks
Wow, I thought you would catch the humor but I guess I caught you at a bad time,perhaps. If you are finished please answer my question: How is Fat Mikes Sensi A/B so inferior to Fatmans Awesome Grow formula , now dubbed the "FAG" formula? I mean technically? A scientist of your high esteem should be impartial and not go off on a fuckin drunkin', Lithium amplified rant. And please don't bring up the fact that you can mix it up for a fraction of the cost. Hell I could raise a cow and get 1000 gallons of milk from it but that would be a total pain in the ass. You see, I don't want to buy 50# bags of chem. As far as Mike raping the doper? Would you like to go into the amount of profit margins from the likes of Collins (GPS), Motorola (Radio), or Bell (Helos) Corp's selling their products to the military in the name of patriotism?? Makes Mike look like a frickin' Saint.
You post that Lucas sucks so you give Dyno thumbs up (sort of) yet you slam AN because it costs too much, but it is no more expensive than GH and AN has YOUR ratio's. WTF?? Name me a brand where I could walk into a hydro store to pick up, that is closest to your formula, and will work best for hydro in VEG . Would it be SENSI? You yourself said AN is finally getting it with the Sensi formula in another book you posted. Please tell me , I will go out and buy it now because I respect your opinion!! Fuck please read that again ok? If the bottle said nothing but "FAG FORMULA" on it in big red letters for all to see I'd still buy it, that's how much I respect you.
P.S I have also seen the world and am a crusty old fart as you but have a much different background so please try not to be too condescending.
Why do I read your edited post above now and it carries a somewhat different tone from the first time I read it? If you did not intend to be a wise ass I apologize.
Now waking up this morning I see that I did , maybe ,take Fatmans response wrong. For that I'm sorry. I will also apologize for the FAG statements.
However, bare in mind that Fatmans historical threads usually end up in flames so as I correspond, I'm like walking on egg shells and I have an extremely sensitive, defensive mindset coming in.
With that said: Fatman, please explain impartially, weighing all the variables you know, the best product to buy from an average Hydro store that a lazy (or too busy) MMJ/small grower can purchase for an INDOOR ,HYDRO, MJ, INERT MEDIUM,TEMP/HUMIDITY CONTROLLED, VEG grow that produces the best overall yield and takes the least amount of customization?
You see, you may be about to set a precedence here just as pH and LUCAS have with bloom. Is Dyna-Gro 9-3-6 better overall, even though its not totally designed for hydro, compared to Sensi 2-part ? Maybe GH 2-micro 1 bloom and tolerate the Cal issue? Is there yet another vendor that better fulfills the FATMAN formula? What base nute could we use and than supplement with another off-the-shelf product or products that would best be suited for your Sativa/ dominant indica or temperature tailored soup? Please post those soups by the way if you would.
Keep in mind that LUCAS is an admittedly compromising formula designed for simplicity and general success. LUCAS is here to stay for bloom but there still is that Holy Grail of a good VEG formula many need. Give us your verdict, we can take it and work from there, I'm sure many people have these same questions. If you would like I can summarize the pros and cons, based on your past observations , of each of the mentioned vendors formulas and than have you elaborate?
Right now, with all that I have read from you and UB, the closest off-the-shelf veg formula so far to me is AN Sensi. I weighed price, simplicity, availability and volume. Let's hash this out and get really productive here. Thanks
fatman7574
New Member
Crop King
http://www.cropking.com/HydroponicSupplies/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=264&zenid=8f09de56a73e5c856a32289cbabac00a
sells every thing but the ammonium molybdate.
I have convinced a chemical supply house to make that available on eBay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/25g-Ammonium-Molybdate-ACS-Grade-Pure_W0QQitemZ280439298699QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item414b7c1a8b
fatman7574
New Member
Sensi One salts (not liquid) are by analysis in percentage:
nitrogen 11
Phosphorus 3.2
Pottasium 11.5
That means a ratio of (N-P-K-C-M-S) at: 3.43 : 1 : 3.59 : 2.5 : 0.52 : 0.69
ie (110/3.2 ) = 3.43, (#.2/3.2) = 1, (11.5/3.2) = 3.59
My veg is: 3.25 : 1 : 3.54 : 3.18 : 1.1 : 1.5. My formula contains higher ratios of calcium and magnesium and sulfur and a low percentage of ammonium nitrogen. The higher sulfur is from using magnesium sulfate as the souce for all the mangnesium contribution. AN is supply part of their magnesium by using magnesium nitrate. This means they are using less calcium nitrate so they have a lower calcium level but about the same nitrogen ratio. This makes little sense other than them being able to say they are not copying another persons formula. It is sorta absurd though as Sativa has huge calcium demands during flowering as they have huge amounts of vegetative growth. The larger amounts of sulphur in my formulation is not of any concern. Typically the sulfur level is not consider excessive unless over 250 ppm.
I have not looked at the Sensi Grow A and B much. However mixed one to one it has a ratio of: 2.5 : 1 : 2.5 : 2.6 : 0.35 : 0 I would use the Sensi One rather than the two part Sensi grow based on those numbers, but I am unaware of what ratio AN recomends for their two part Sensi Grow formulations. I also have not done my own analysis on the Sensi One or Two two part Sensi grow formulations so I do not know their ammonium concentrations and I have neverseem that info posted anywahere. I am assumo ing their ammonium concentrations are all below the standard recomendations of the ammonium nitrogen comprising no more than15% of the total nitrogen. Not some absurd amount like the 30% plus used in Dyna-Gro Foilage-Pro. Milking Fat Mikie is not very good at transparency though when it comes to his formulations.
nitrogen 11
Phosphorus 3.2
Pottasium 11.5
That means a ratio of (N-P-K-C-M-S) at: 3.43 : 1 : 3.59 : 2.5 : 0.52 : 0.69
ie (110/3.2 ) = 3.43, (#.2/3.2) = 1, (11.5/3.2) = 3.59
My veg is: 3.25 : 1 : 3.54 : 3.18 : 1.1 : 1.5. My formula contains higher ratios of calcium and magnesium and sulfur and a low percentage of ammonium nitrogen. The higher sulfur is from using magnesium sulfate as the souce for all the mangnesium contribution. AN is supply part of their magnesium by using magnesium nitrate. This means they are using less calcium nitrate so they have a lower calcium level but about the same nitrogen ratio. This makes little sense other than them being able to say they are not copying another persons formula. It is sorta absurd though as Sativa has huge calcium demands during flowering as they have huge amounts of vegetative growth. The larger amounts of sulphur in my formulation is not of any concern. Typically the sulfur level is not consider excessive unless over 250 ppm.
I have not looked at the Sensi Grow A and B much. However mixed one to one it has a ratio of: 2.5 : 1 : 2.5 : 2.6 : 0.35 : 0 I would use the Sensi One rather than the two part Sensi grow based on those numbers, but I am unaware of what ratio AN recomends for their two part Sensi Grow formulations. I also have not done my own analysis on the Sensi One or Two two part Sensi grow formulations so I do not know their ammonium concentrations and I have neverseem that info posted anywahere. I am assumo ing their ammonium concentrations are all below the standard recomendations of the ammonium nitrogen comprising no more than15% of the total nitrogen. Not some absurd amount like the 30% plus used in Dyna-Gro Foilage-Pro. Milking Fat Mikie is not very good at transparency though when it comes to his formulations.
patlpp
New Member
Here is a link to the info:
http://www.advancednutrients.com/oregon/oregon_label/SensiGrowPAB.jpg
I tested the concentration and the PPM referenced in the dosage table is a .5 conversion factor.
fatman7574
New Member
Ugh, scratch the Sensi Grows. They are a much better choice for dirt framing Staiva than inert Hydro as there amitrogrm is over half ammonium and other water soluble nitrogen not nitrate. The only other nitrogen has to be urea. Urea must be converted to ammonium or nitrate before it can be taken up by the plants. The tests that gave the most favorable look at such a urea loaded hydroponic fertilzer is the one posted by dirt Farmer Ben. It showed the conversion of urea to ammonium did not even start for at least 7 days and took over 14 days to be completely converted to ammonium. Then you have a but load of ammonium thhat will caiuse major drops in the nutrient pH daily. Or there is the possibility that you might run a sytem where you never change y out your reservoir and never use chlorine or H2O2 in the resrvoir. In that acse the urea will be fully conceted to ammonium in 21 days and ythen into nitrate in another 3 to five weeks.
I would not consider using the Sensi A and Sensi B formula for anything but an outdoor dirt grow unless I was using it on an indoor grwo where I was using a pH controller to maintain the proper pH.
The below was pulled from another thread whee I tried to discuss with Uncle Ben that a hydro fertilizer for inert media containing urea and fertilizers with a high proportion of ammonium or urea to Nitrate is a bad idea because of the pH issues it would cause: Uncle Ben himself in his arguments posted threads that proved that pH declines would be an issue of such proportions that a pH controller should be used to maintain the consytantly declining pH in therange for optimum nutrient availabilty.
I am sure that will work fine in most soils but it has nothing to do with the majority of inert soil less grower's needs.
So it takes bacteria to covert NH4 (ammonia) to nitrite and then nitrate. So you use a mixture of nitrogen sources in your soil grows. Ok, that means the Dyna-Gro products are fine for soil, more so than inert media (soil less) hydro and aquaculture. There has been no disagreement about what works in soil. I am concerned more with formulations for inert media hydroponicsand DWC/Bubbleponics as are the majority of MJ growers.
Urea is not used in those formulations and it is very well known by expereienced inert media soil less hydro growers that levels of ammonium need to be maintained in their nutrients, at levels below those used in most soil nutrient formulations. That should not even be considered arguble.
So please quit avoiding your blunders and antiquated baseless opinions by talking about what works in soil. The issue is that the high levels of ammonium nitrogen in Dyna-Pro nutrients cause problems in inert (soil free) hydroponc systems. PERIOD. I have no doubt that Flora-Bloom and the other soluble Dyna-Gro formulations work well in soil. I am arguing that they work better with less problems in soil because the ammonical level is not that great an issue with soil grows where dolomitic lime is typically present and where the bacterias need to convert it to nitrite and nitarte are usually very abundant.
So you do not half to spell it out and add more confusion here is the speal on ammonium in soil applications:
Ammonium nitrogen (NH4+) carries a positive charge and is adsorbed onto soil particles. In this chemical form, leaching of nitrogen does not occur; however, NH4+ is changed to the NO3- form by bacteria. This process occurs rapidly (beginning within 2 to 3 days) as the soil temperature climbs above 50°F. Complete conversion from NH4+ to NO3- occurs within about a month of application.
This implies that Ammonium nitrogen is a slow release fertilizer in soils not urea. This is another indicator that Dtyna-Gro fertilizer regardless of it contain 12 to 15 elements is essentially DESIGNED FOR SOILS but may be used in hydro if you are qilling to deal with the adverse sise effects of all the ammonium nitrogen. Period. Put that all in your pipe and smke it Ben. Please try to learn from this and not repeat the same ludicrous statements and mistakes and side tracks again.
In regard to bacteria conversion of ammonical nitrogen for use in inert media (soil free) hydroponics consider the ammonical nitrogen is typically very slow to be converted to nitrite then nitrate and usually it takes at least five weeks for the changes to take place. This is due to chemical hydroponic nutrients not having the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter solutions present when initialy mixed from a cocentrate and RO or even tap water if it has been chloronated. (Dyna-Gro even insures those bacteria are not present in their fo nutrients a by adding chlorine to there formulations. Go figure! Another indicator ithey are soil preferential formulations.
Then for the people who regularly use chlorine or H2O2 the bacteria is never going to be present at large enough levels to make anything but negligible conversions. It also means for those who change their reservoir(s) at least once every two to three or even four weeks the conversion to nitrate is negligible.
This means when the ammonical nitrogen is taken up by the roots (during low light seedling conditions and during budding) the roots will dump every day a bunch of H+ ions. As nearly no hydroponic formulations supply enough alkalinity (buffers) to handle this amount of H+ (acid) the nutrient pH drops substantially daily.
It is a simpy fact that 3 pounds of lime to counter the acids from a pound of urea or ammonium nitrogen. Does that give you any idea what will be needed to neutralize the acids in a hydroponic reservoir. Yepper 3 ppm of carbonate alkalinity per each ppm of ammonium nitrogen.
I would not consider using the Sensi A and Sensi B formula for anything but an outdoor dirt grow unless I was using it on an indoor grwo where I was using a pH controller to maintain the proper pH.
The below was pulled from another thread whee I tried to discuss with Uncle Ben that a hydro fertilizer for inert media containing urea and fertilizers with a high proportion of ammonium or urea to Nitrate is a bad idea because of the pH issues it would cause: Uncle Ben himself in his arguments posted threads that proved that pH declines would be an issue of such proportions that a pH controller should be used to maintain the consytantly declining pH in therange for optimum nutrient availabilty.
I am sure that will work fine in most soils but it has nothing to do with the majority of inert soil less grower's needs.
So it takes bacteria to covert NH4 (ammonia) to nitrite and then nitrate. So you use a mixture of nitrogen sources in your soil grows. Ok, that means the Dyna-Gro products are fine for soil, more so than inert media (soil less) hydro and aquaculture. There has been no disagreement about what works in soil. I am concerned more with formulations for inert media hydroponicsand DWC/Bubbleponics as are the majority of MJ growers.
Urea is not used in those formulations and it is very well known by expereienced inert media soil less hydro growers that levels of ammonium need to be maintained in their nutrients, at levels below those used in most soil nutrient formulations. That should not even be considered arguble.
So please quit avoiding your blunders and antiquated baseless opinions by talking about what works in soil. The issue is that the high levels of ammonium nitrogen in Dyna-Pro nutrients cause problems in inert (soil free) hydroponc systems. PERIOD. I have no doubt that Flora-Bloom and the other soluble Dyna-Gro formulations work well in soil. I am arguing that they work better with less problems in soil because the ammonical level is not that great an issue with soil grows where dolomitic lime is typically present and where the bacterias need to convert it to nitrite and nitarte are usually very abundant.
So you do not half to spell it out and add more confusion here is the speal on ammonium in soil applications:
Ammonium nitrogen (NH4+) carries a positive charge and is adsorbed onto soil particles. In this chemical form, leaching of nitrogen does not occur; however, NH4+ is changed to the NO3- form by bacteria. This process occurs rapidly (beginning within 2 to 3 days) as the soil temperature climbs above 50°F. Complete conversion from NH4+ to NO3- occurs within about a month of application.
This implies that Ammonium nitrogen is a slow release fertilizer in soils not urea. This is another indicator that Dtyna-Gro fertilizer regardless of it contain 12 to 15 elements is essentially DESIGNED FOR SOILS but may be used in hydro if you are qilling to deal with the adverse sise effects of all the ammonium nitrogen. Period. Put that all in your pipe and smke it Ben. Please try to learn from this and not repeat the same ludicrous statements and mistakes and side tracks again.
In regard to bacteria conversion of ammonical nitrogen for use in inert media (soil free) hydroponics consider the ammonical nitrogen is typically very slow to be converted to nitrite then nitrate and usually it takes at least five weeks for the changes to take place. This is due to chemical hydroponic nutrients not having the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter solutions present when initialy mixed from a cocentrate and RO or even tap water if it has been chloronated. (Dyna-Gro even insures those bacteria are not present in their fo nutrients a by adding chlorine to there formulations. Go figure! Another indicator ithey are soil preferential formulations.
Then for the people who regularly use chlorine or H2O2 the bacteria is never going to be present at large enough levels to make anything but negligible conversions. It also means for those who change their reservoir(s) at least once every two to three or even four weeks the conversion to nitrate is negligible.
This means when the ammonical nitrogen is taken up by the roots (during low light seedling conditions and during budding) the roots will dump every day a bunch of H+ ions. As nearly no hydroponic formulations supply enough alkalinity (buffers) to handle this amount of H+ (acid) the nutrient pH drops substantially daily.
It is a simpy fact that 3 pounds of lime to counter the acids from a pound of urea or ammonium nitrogen. Does that give you any idea what will be needed to neutralize the acids in a hydroponic reservoir. Yepper 3 ppm of carbonate alkalinity per each ppm of ammonium nitrogen.
YouGrowBoy
Well-Known Member
I understand how to add the silicate. Thanks.
I want to insure my safety as well as insure I make proper concentrates.
For each concentrate, when mixing the dry ingredients, is it best to mix all the dry ingredients together 1st then add to RO water or is each individual ingredient added one at a time and mixed throughly? (I do a lot of cooking and sometimes this process matters)
Should I be wearing gloves and a mask when using these chemicals?
Are there any other safety or mixing concerns when working with these chemicals and making concentrates?
YGB
P.S. (for everyone except Fatman unless my math is off) I priced all the ingredients at Crop King and the total including shipping would be about $250 ($110 of that goes to UPS!) for an initial minimum order. this would make an initial batch for 500 gallons mixed at 2.7 EC. If using aero I could probably go about .7 EC and get nearly 2000 gallons of drain to waste solution. That is enough for about 20 small crops. Right now $250 at hydro store price would last about 3 small crops.
Also, Most of the bags would have plenty left over and only a few chemicals would need to be repurchased so the next 2000 gallons would cost even less.
Something to think about for us DIY'ers.
P.P.S. To the guy that want's to buy the milk instead of a cow, remember cow's take a lot more maintenance then bags of chemicals sitteng in a garage. And, instesd of mixing 5 or 6 different prepackaged (expensive) bottles from AN, GH, Canna or others every time you change resevoirs , you can mix 8 (cheap) dry ingredients from Crop King once.
fatman7574
New Member
It really is all pretty simple. At worst you just do as the nutrient manfacture's commonly do. Copy some other persons formula that works then as you gain more knowledge about how it performs adjust it to perform best for your market or needs. Mixing for your self you can just get more specific to your needs than with the retail nutrients that provide for a broad market. You don't see the retailers marketing things like nutrients for: DWC, low pressure aero, high pressure aero, NTF, bubbleponics, rockwool, yet alone sativa or indica dominant for each type of those grows. Nor do you see those formulas being made for low temperatures versus high temperatures. Or even intense lighting verus non intense lighting like CFC or flourescent.
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