Does War Actually Make Money?

[RickWhite]

You must be talking about great periods in history like the Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, The Dark Ages etc etc etc all wonderful church oriented times in this worlds past, truly a Philosophical Smorgasbord of religious zealotry! Religion has caused more suffering than all wars combined.

Actually, the opposite is true. While there were religious wars, we are talking about a minuscule amount of deaths that occurred in ancient times. Notice how far back you need to go to find examples - and not all are valid.

The huge mass murders were notably secular in nature. Stalin's killed upward of 20 million people in a distinctly atheist Russia. We all know what Hitler did, but few know he was vehemently anti-religion and that was a big part of his motivation. Then there are the killing fields of Pol Pot and of course the tens of millions murdered by Mao.

Men can be brutal creatures and always seem to find reasons to go to war. Hell, wars have been fought over women. Religion has been one of them, but it has also been a force of great good.

Judging from what the middle East looks like today, what do you think it was like before Moses came down from the mountain? I've got news for you, they weren't all playing kick the can - well maybe with a human head.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Actually, the opposite is true. While there were religious wars, we are talking about a minuscule amount of deaths that occurred in ancient times. Notice how far back you need to go to find examples - and not all are valid.

The huge mass murders were notably secular in nature. Stalin's killed upward of 20 million people in a distinctly atheist Russia. We all know what Hitler did, but few know he was vehemently anti-religion and that was a big part of his motivation. Then there are the killing fields of Pol Pot and of course the tens of millions murdered by Mao.

Men can be brutal creatures and always seem to find reasons to go to war. Hell, wars have been fought over women. Religion has been one of them, but it has also been a force of great good.

Judging from what the middle East looks like today, what do you think it was like before Moses came down from the mountain? I've got news for you, they weren't all playing kick the can - well maybe with a human head.

Spoken like an ignorant creationist.

You'd think, again, being as smart as you are, you'd know Hitler was a Catholic... (can't wait to see Cracker come in and defend Rick on this one! I've personally seen him [Cracker] argue this exact same point with creationists before, so lets see if he's actually got any balls and whose side he takes on this one, should be interesting!)

And all this bullshit has been repeated dozens of times before, guess by which crowd? Yep, the anti-science crowd, the religious nutjobs, the people pushing for intelligent design in our schools.

And it's pretty well known Stalin executed anyone he viewed as a threat, including the religious, which had nothing to do with actually being religious and more to do with putting the church above the state, which was the highest form of authority in Russia.

History 101.

 

[RickWhite]

Spoken like an ignorant creationist.

You'd think, again, being as smart as you are, you'd know Hitler was a Catholic... (can't wait to see Cracker come in and defend Rick on this one!

LOL! You say that as if it is going to be difficult. You mean he was Catholic by birth? How is his religious heritage relevant? If he was black, would that prove that being black was the cause of what he did. Hitler certainly was not a devout Catholic acting in accordance with his faith. In fact, the Catholic Church did more than anyone to resist Hitler and defend Jews from him.


I've personally seen him [Cracker] argue this exact same point with creationists before, so lets see if he's actually got any balls and whose side he takes on this one, should be interesting!)

What is all this about "creationist" and how is it relevant to the issue? I have studied evolution on a molecular level - I am well aware of the science. It sounds like you are trying to change the subject.

And all this bullshit has been repeated dozens of times before, guess by which crowd? Yep, the anti-science crowd, the religious nutjobs, the people pushing for intelligent design in our schools.

Again, this is a straw man. I know you fear and hate religion, but this has nothing to do with the myth that religion has caused most of our wars and killed so many people.

And it's pretty well known Stalin executed anyone he viewed as a threat, including the religious, which had nothing to do with actually being religious and more to do with putting the church above the state, which was the highest form of authority in Russia.

History 101.

That was my point. Stalin's motives were not religious, nor were Hitler's, Pol Pot's or Mao's. The biggest mass murderers in history.

Now where religion is killing boat loads of people is when we look at Islam. Just about every Muslim country is at war with their neighbors and in every case it has to do with Islam having a fundamental requirement to subjugate people of other faiths.

 

[CrackerJax]

That's true enough. It is the left wing spectrum of the political animal which spills the most blood ... by far...and yes religion is often a victim within the societies mentioned above.

He's right there.

 

[Padawanbater2]

The huge mass murders were notably secular in nature. Stalin's killed upward of 20 million people in a distinctly atheist Russia. We all know what Hitler did, but few know he was vehemently anti-religion and that was a big part of his motivation. Then there are the killing fields of Pol Pot and of course the tens of millions murdered by Mao. (gee, weren't they atheists, too?)

LOL! You say that as if it is going to be difficult. You mean he was Catholic by birth? How is his religious heritage relevant? If he was black, would that prove that being black was the cause of what he did. Hitler certainly was not a devout Catholic acting in accordance with his faith. In fact, the Catholic Church did more than anyone to resist Hitler and defend Jews from him.

Riiight... You posted that bullshit implying that Hitlers "vehemently anti-religion" stance is what led him to do the things he did which couldn't be any more inaccurate. He used the Catholic Church during the Holocaust as a tool of manipulating the population.

What is all this about "creationist" and how is it relevant to the issue? I have studied evolution on a molecular level - I am well aware of the science. It sounds like you are trying to change the subject.

Striking similarities between you and creationists.

Again, this is a straw man. I know you fear and hate religion, but this has nothing to do with the myth that religion has caused most of our wars and killed so many people.

https://www.rollitup.org/politics/322126-why-war-waged.html

Money takes 53% of the vote. I voted for money. I think religion gives people (false) justification for the insane shit they do.


That was my point. Stalin's motives were not religious, nor were Hitler's, Pol Pot's or Mao's. The biggest mass murderers in history.

You said they were "secular" reasons.

Explain what you mean by that.

Now where religion is killing boat loads of people is when we look at Islam. Just about every Muslim country is at war with their neighbors and in every case it has to do with Islam having a fundamental requirement to subjugate people of other faiths.

Fuck Islam. I've said it dozens of times before.

 

[CrackerJax]

When you rail against religion....you rail against the left. The church is based on socialism as well. Collectivism.

So combining the two together.... we can conclude that the left end of the political ideologies is pretty much responsible for all of man's misery....

The church is socialism.

 

[Padawanbater2]

[youtube]-IUSZyjiYuY[/youtube]

Not a big Nickelback fan, but this song has a good message.

 

[NoDrama]

OK ricky, If religion has nothing to do with mass murders and genocide then please explain to me why the supposed Middle East hates the USA so much? Is it because they hate our freedoms so much? Does it have anything to do with religion or being Muslim? How about having anything to do with getting the infidels out of the holy land?


Religion has its place, for all those people weak of mind and conviction it is a very good crutch, one that can be used over and over to justify the horrors of our bloody deeds.


[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth. ~Mark Twain
[/FONT]

 

[RickWhite]

OK ricky, If religion has nothing to do with mass murders and genocide then please explain to me why the supposed Middle East hates the USA so much? Is it because they hate our freedoms so much? Does it have anything to do with religion or being Muslim? How about having anything to do with getting the infidels out of the holy land?


Religion has its place, for all those people weak of mind and conviction it is a very good crutch, one that can be used over and over to justify the horrors of our bloody deeds.


[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth. ~Mark Twain[/FONT]

I already said that Islam is the one notable exception. Yes, in the case of Islam, one would have to have his head up his ass not to see the obvious connection.

Don't make the mistake of believing that religion is just a crutch for the weak of mind. A lot of people make assumptions about religion based on their own personal experience which is always minuscule in the grand scheme of things. While religion does give us a good deal of brain dead idiots, it also gives us some amazingly profound philosophy.

You can choose whether you want to focus your energy on blindly condemning religion, or trying to point out flaws, or you can take it for what it is and try to learn what you can from it.

When ever I encounter any religious material I always ask myself what the writing is trying to get across, what I can learn from it and what value it may have. That is a much better way to improve one's understanding of life and to gain wisdom. After all, we clearly learn nothing from simply finding fault with things without giving them a chance.

 

[Dankdude]

One thing I have noticed through out this thread is that the misconception that Haliburton was the only company in the world who could have done the job in Iraq. This statement is untrue, Global Oilfield Services of Russia (also partially owned by France) also could have handled the job and has more expiriance doing oilfield services in war zones.

 

[CrackerJax]

Talk about a naive statement.

 

[OutDaCloset]

OK ricky, If religion has nothing to do with mass murders and genocide then please explain to me why the supposed Middle East hates the USA so much? Is it because they hate our freedoms so much? Does it have anything to do with religion or being Muslim? How about having anything to do with getting the infidels out of the holy land?


Religion has its place, for all those people weak of mind and conviction it is a very good crutch, one that can be used over and over to justify the horrors of our bloody deeds.


[FONT=georgia, bookman old style, palatino linotype, book antiqua, palatino, trebuchet ms, helvetica, garamond, sans-serif, arial, verdana, avante garde, century gothic, comic sans ms, times, times new roman, serif]Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out... and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel.... And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man" - with his mouth. ~Mark Twain
[/FONT]

nicely put

 

[Johnny Retro]

I dont know where the threads at now but.. heres my opinion
Now a days, it dosent make us any money
Back in the begining of WW2 our country was obviously in the midst of the depression, then when the war started ALL these factory jobs started hiring people which helped get us out of our slump, but nowadays its mostly tecnology..

 

[CrackerJax]

JR... read my OP of the "FDR MYTH" thread. WW2 didn't pull us out of anything either. The pull out occurred 3 to 4 years after the war. Once FDR'S policies were thrown to the curb... progress began.

Especially so today however, as you stated..... war is NOT profitable. Ppl scream at the cost of out national security, and all of the everyday costs of the Pentagon and it's all encompassing programs...to keep us superior in military technology (until Obama).

So you have to add all of the peace time costs in between wars into the mix.

In the end...it's all in the red.

If one says that certain corps or individuals make money during a war.... that's true, but hardly sinister. Ppl make profit when we aren't at war either..... so...no point there. Someone has to build the weaponry. Heck, we know we can't have the govt. do it.... because we actually need the stuff to WORK.

 

[Dankdude]

Talk about a naive statement.

Please explain what is naive about it.

 

[Padawanbater2]

JR... read my OP of the "FDR MYTH" thread. WW2 didn't pull us out of anything either. The pull out occurred 3 to 4 years after the war. Once FDR'S policies were thrown to the curb... progress began.

Especially so today however, as you stated..... war is NOT profitable. Ppl scream at the cost of out national security, and all of the everyday costs of the Pentagon and it's all encompassing programs...to keep us superior in military technology (until Obama).

So you have to add all of the peace time costs in between wars into the mix.

In the end...it's all in the red.

If one says that certain corps or individuals make money during a war.... that's true, but hardly sinister. Ppl make profit when we aren't at war either..... so...no point there. Someone has to build the weaponry. Heck, we know we can't have the govt. do it.... because we actually need the stuff to WORK.

Dude, that isn't the issue at all.

Is it wrong to make a profit during a war? No, of course not, as I said in another thread, that's Capitalism at it's finest. Is it wrong to use your power/money to influence American politicians in order to wage a war so that your company makes a profit? Absolutely. Which is what is happening. Halliburton is the shining example, but there are literally hundreds more that do the exact same thing.

You either do not believe this is happening, very rich people using whatever means necessary to influence the way American politicians vote, or do not believe it's wrong.

If you don't believe it's happening, I would ask why not? I just outlined exactly how I think it would work in one paragraph, why couldn't this be happening? What's preventing it?

If you believe it is happening but it keeps us safer or it's business'/corporations rights to use this tactic to make a profit at the expense of the American taxpayer, then that's another thread all together.

 

[CrackerJax]

I know you like conspiracy thinking.... but wars are not started so ppl can make $$$.... of course if business sees a war is imminent... they sure do jostle for position and yes, they do use ALL of their influence ( I would expect nothing less as a shareholder).

That does NOT equate into what you are implying.

The war comes first.... ppl die second...profit is made.... whenever it can....in any climate....war or peace.



Dank.... If you think the USA is going to hire out the Russians for security when we have an extremely capable set of companies at home.... ur smoking something and it isn't weed.


Naive..... and not objective thinking.... at all.

 

[Dankdude]

Haliburton was not originally hired for security, just oilfield services. you sir are the one who is naive you know very little and even less about the oilfield. You forget that I live in the heart of the oil patch. The security aspect of Haliburton's didn't come into play until after they got there.... BTW, that is what Blackwater was hired for, and you see what a bang up job they did. Try again, I present facts, you present propaganda.

Here I'll translate this to a language you and your ilk will understand:
Haliburton war ursprünglich nicht für die Sicherheit eingestellt, nur Ölfeld-Dienstleistungen. Sir Sie sind derjenige, der naiv ist, dass Sie wissen sehr wenig und noch weniger über dem Ölfeld. Sie vergessen, dass ich im Herzen des Öls Patch leben. Der Aspekt der Sicherheit Haliburton's nicht ins Spiel kommen erst, nachdem sie dort ankam .... BTW, das ist, was Blackwater wurde eingestellt, und Sie sehen, was einem Knall up Job, den sie tat. Versuchen Sie es erneut, ich Fakten, Sie präsentieren Propaganda.

 

[Padawanbater2]

I know you like conspiracy thinking.... but wars are not started so ppl can make $$$.... of course if business sees a war is imminent... they sure do jostle for position and yes, they do use ALL of their influence ( I would expect nothing less as a shareholder).
That does NOT equate into what you are implying.

The war comes first.... ppl die second...profit is made.... whenever it can....in any climate....war or peace.

"if business sees a war is imminent" - This is where you are put profits above your own humanity. "If business sees a war is imminent", they should do all in their power to avoid it, not profit from it. Not perpetuate it. Not influence it. This is one of the major flaws of our system - morals and ethics do not apply to one's ability to make a profit. For example, if I have 80 employees and it would be more profitable for me and the company (including the remaining 70 employees) to fire 10 of them, shouldn't I do it? I make more money, more happiness is spread amongst my remaining employees at the cost of the 10 I fired. How do you weigh the amount of good over the bad? This is a complicated question that's not easily answered, but should always be asked.

Which is the problem. Corporations are in a position of influence over American politics. Our government is not an accurate representation of the American people and has been taken over by Corporate America. It's 2010 and Marijuana STILL isn't legal, every single scientific study published after 1990 says it's less harmful than alcohol and yet it remains a schedule 1 drug because of political reasons.

Your support for a system that profits off waging wars is nothing short of disgusting. People just like you, your friends and family and the people in your community die every single day because of attitudes like this. It's because of you the system exists the way it does.

 

[CrackerJax]

Haliburton was not originally hired for security, just oilfield services. you sir are the one who is naive you know very little and even less about the oilfield. You forget that I live in the heart of the oil patch. The security aspect of Haliburton's didn't come into play until after they got there.... BTW, that is what Blackwater was hired for, and you see what a bang up job they did. Try again, I present facts, you present propaganda.

Here I'll translate this to a language you and your ilk will understand:
Haliburton war ursprünglich nicht für die Sicherheit eingestellt, nur Ölfeld-Dienstleistungen. Sir Sie sind derjenige, der naiv ist, dass Sie wissen sehr wenig und noch weniger über dem Ölfeld. Sie vergessen, dass ich im Herzen des Öls Patch leben. Der Aspekt der Sicherheit Haliburton's nicht ins Spiel kommen erst, nachdem sie dort ankam .... BTW, das ist, was Blackwater wurde eingestellt, und Sie sehen, was einem Knall up Job, den sie tat. Versuchen Sie es erneut, ich Fakten, Sie präsentieren Propaganda.

You can rename or fill in the blank on the USA companies.... that's fine. I am talking about your premise...which is INSANE btw...of using a Russian corp as opposed to a USA corp.... UHHH DUH!!!! incredibly naive. Incredibly so.....go sit in the corner.

"if business sees a war is imminent" - This is where you are put profits above your own humanity. "If business sees a war is imminent", they should do all in their power to avoid it, not profit from it. Not perpetuate it. Not influence it. This is one of the major flaws of our system - morals and ethics do not apply to one's ability to make a profit. For example, if I have 80 employees and it would be more profitable for me and the company (including the remaining 70 employees) to fire 10 of them, shouldn't I do it? I make more money, more happiness is spread amongst my remaining employees at the cost of the 10 I fired. How do you weigh the amount of good over the bad? This is a complicated question that's not easily answered, but should always be asked.

Which is the problem. Corporations are in a position of influence over American politics. Our government is not an accurate representation of the American people and has been taken over by Corporate America. It's 2010 and Marijuana STILL isn't legal, every single scientific study published after 1990 says it's less harmful than alcohol and yet it remains a schedule 1 drug because of political reasons.

Your support for a system that profits off waging wars is nothing short of disgusting. People just like you, your friends and family and the people in your community die every single day because of attitudes like this. It's because of you the system exists the way it does.

So, in Paddy's world.... the companies should say nope...we aren't going to war with the country we work in.

Paddy's country was taken over last week after only 4 weeks of being in existence.... now ur country gets to work for ....some other country.

When your country calls upon you in time of need.... you best answer that call. And answer it well.