Islam: Evil or misunderstood

[UncleBuck]

You guys don't understand because in the West, religion does not control government.

Western civilization left the Catholic Church in the dust by the Renaissance; but throughout the Middle Ages in Europe, the church ran everything.

But Islam seeks to go back to those dark ages when religion, not the rule of law, ran the show. And they want that religion to be Islam and the law to be Sharia Law.

Worldwide Caliphate. Look it up.

i think we are disagreeing because we have two different things in mind when we post.

i am posting with the american muslims i have known in mind. you know, the ones who don't stone women in the streets for adultery, not for sharia law in the middle east or america, etc

i think you have primarily in mind the other side of the globe, where they do have abhorrent practices and want the whole globe to practice like they do, among othr beliefs.

a world of difference between the two...possibly the source of our friction

 

[Johnnyorganic]

but you are missing the point, even muslims denounce these isolated act of brutality.

i sure as hell heard a lot of christians denouncing any retaliation on christians following okc/abortion clinic murders/park city.



and maybe you didn't hear a lot of muslims denouncing 9/11 because you might not have any muslim friends (just a guess). te several muslims i knew at that time sure denounced it. maybe you chose to watch them dance in the streets of gaza due to a little phenomenon called confirmation bias....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Really, you heard no American who just might happen to be Christian, condemn those acts? Really? As I remember, pretty much the entire nation was outraged by the Oklahoma City and the Olympic Park bombings.

I guess the major networks, and Fox, all suffer from confirmation bias, too. That video was all over the news that terrible day. Maybe the fact that you ignored it demonstrates your own bias.

 

[UncleBuck]

Really, you heard no American who just might happen to be Christian, condemn those acts? Really?

i never said that. take a look.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

i think we are disagreeing because we have two different things in mind when we post.

i am posting with the american muslims i have known in mind. you know, the ones who don't stone women in the streets for adultery, not for sharia law in the middle east or america, etc

i think you have primarily in mind the other side of the globe, where they do have abhorrent practices and want the whole globe to practice like they do, among othr beliefs.

a world of difference between the two...possibly the source of our friction

I am sure you are correct.

And I don't want to give anyone the impression that I will defend Christianity at the drop of a hat.

I simply disagree that there is some sort of moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity.

 

[UncleBuck]

I simply disagree that there is some sort of moral equivalency between Islam and Christianity.

i think there is, at least with respect to the vast majority of american muslims.

we could go back and forth all day i'm sure, but i think it is better to get the grill fired up at this point and start knocking back a few brewskis....so agree to disagree for now.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

i never said that. take a look.

I misread your statement. Mea Culpa.

Are you saying you heard every Christian you know denounce retaliatory attacks against Christians as a result of those bombings?

As I recall, the focus in OK was on catching the perps, not what religion they were. In fact, attention was not on Christians, but on militias.

In the cases of the abortion killings, I do remember Christians saying not all Christians should be judged by the actions of crazy people who commit violence in the name of their cause.

 

[UncleBuck]

As I recall, the focus in OK was on catching the perps, not what religion they were. In fact, attention was not on Christians, but on militias.

same as it should have been after 9/11. catch those responsible, do not persecute an entire religion.

 

[hanimmal]

I don't understand why more people don't just look at where they are as a society compared to us and think about how we were back then. Most of the middle east is barely to were we were by the 1900s and it not like we had our shit together, prohibitions, lynchings, womens rights were non existent, go down the list, the one thing we did have though was a pretty stable government with relatively little corruption (when compared to the piecemeal warlord systems they mainly have).

Not so much of a religious issue as it's a sociological issue to me.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

same as it should have been after 9/11. catch those responsible, do not persecute an entire religion.

But what if the religion is the perp?

I am compelled to repeat what I said earlier: Clash of Civilizations. It is real and we are living it.

Islam has a long history of Jihad. An unbroken history which continues to this day.

What reasonable person advocates executing a schoolteacher for allowing students to name a teddy bear 'Mohammad?'

What I cannot accept is a religion which advocates violence against non-believers, and has two sets of rules based on us and them.

Christ said 'Love thy neighbor.' Mohammad said and I am paraphrasing, 'Love thy Muslim neighbor, but slay thy Infidel neighbor or drive him out if he refuses to submit to Islam.'

Dhimmitude is not just a term I made up.

 

[ink the world]

He didn't make it because he couldn't. It is not politically correct.

Clash of civilizations, folks.

Domestic matters are treated differently. You seem to be saying we tolerate these acts because they are done by Christians.

Clearly we do not.

McVeigh was executed and his partner will never see daylight.

The Olympic Park bomber will never breath free air again.

The killer who murdered the abortion doctor is in jail and will be for the rest of his miserable life.

And yes, in its heyday the KKK was a bunch of white Christian Democrats (I noticed how you conveniently omitted that). But the Klan has been completely marginalized by government action and society. In point of fact, the modern Klan only serves to present some sort of boogerman for the Southern Poverty Law Center to parade about whenever they hold a fund raising drive.

But you are missing the point, even Christians denounce these isolated acts of brutality.

I didn't see a whole helluva lot of Muslims denouncing the terrorists after 911, in fact I remember seeing video of dancing in the streets in Gaza. But I sure as hell heard a lot of Muslims denouncing any retaliation on Muslims follwing 911.

Not saying we tolerate these acts because they are Christians, we just dont equate their acts w/ the philosophy of an ENTIRE religion. We consider them acts of religious extremists. Im saying we should use the same standard for all religions. I understand Christians denounced the crimes, I also saw and read of some people calling Tillers murderer a "saint" and a "righteous man", clearly the words of fanatics. The fanatics are on the fringes of all religious movements.

I didnt mention the KKK being Democrats, because it isnt relevant.....I can make the distinction between religion and national political movements. Im kinda into that whole whacky seperation of religion and state.

There were Muslims out speaking against the 9/11 terrorists, maybe you just chose not to hear them.

 

[abe23]

Johnny, have you actually read the clash of civilizations or did you pick up that up as a catchphrase on fox news? Because huntington actually talks about multiple civilizations, not just the muslim world and the west and does so in far less simplistic terms than most of the folks who parrot that phrase seem to believe...

check out the book, it's a worthwhile read.

If we are at war with islam, then why aren't we fighting indonesia, the most populous muslim country or india, the country with the most muslims anywhere in the world? It seems to me that we're at war with a bunch of medieval crazies who use religion as an excuse to perpetrate political violence.

The only people interested in making this a war between the west and islam are al-quaeda and dick cheney, but you seem to buy into it based on info you get from talk radio or god knows where. Go travel to morocco, malaysia or bosnia. I didn't meet a single muslim in any of those places who thought 9/11 was a good thing...

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Not saying we tolerate these acts because they are Christians, we just dont equate their acts w/ the philosophy of an ENTIRE religion. We consider them acts of religious extremists. Im saying we should use the same standard for all religions. I understand Christians denounced the crimes, I also saw and read of some people calling Tillers murderer a "saint" and a "righteous man", clearly the words of fanatics. The fanatics are on the fringes of all religious movements.

I didnt mention the KKK being Democrats, because it isnt relevant.....I can make the distinction between religion and national political movements. Im kinda into that whole whacky seperation of religion and state.

There were Muslims out speaking against the 9/11 terrorists, maybe you just chose not to hear them.

You don't see the distinction because apparently you think Islam is just another religion. It is much more than that. Which means that comparing Islam to modern Christianity is comparing apples and oranges.

And your mentioning the ties between the Klan and the Democratic Party would have been redundant. But you mentioned they were white, which is redundant too.

I am into the separation of church and state as well. In the West, this is respected. The law acts as a counterbalance to religion. But in this civilization with which we are clashing religion is the law.

What you heard was muted and insincere. Muslims are allowed to lie in the furtherance of Islam.

 

[abe23]

Ireland, Chile and Mexico all outlaw abortion for religious reasons. Should we clash with them as well or are they cool because we have the same religion, more or less....?

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Johnny, have you actually read the clash of civilizations or did you pick up that up as a catchphrase on fox news? Because huntington actually talks about multiple civilizations, not just the muslim world and the west and does so in far less simplistic terms than most of the folks who parrot that phrase seem to believe...

check out the book, it's a worthwhile read.

If we are at war with islam, then why aren't we fighting indonesia, the most populous muslim country or india, the country with the most muslims anywhere in the world? It seems to me that we're at war with a bunch of medieval crazies who use religion as an excuse to perpetrate political violence.

The only people interested in making this a war between the west and islam are al-quaeda and dick cheney, but you seem to buy into it based on info you get from talk radio or god knows where. Go travel to morocco, malaysia or bosnia. I didn't meet a single muslim in any of those places who thought 9/11 was a good thing...

You must be a recent graduate of the Robert Gibbs School of Political Discourse.

It is impossible for you to insult me based what you only assume I don't know.

In your travels did you also try taking a Bible into Saudi Arabia? Not a beer or anything tangible which is prohibited, just words in a book. I'll wager you did not.

 

[ink the world]

You must be a recent graduate of the Robert Gibbs School of Political Discourse.

It is impossible for you to insult me based what you only assume I don't know.

In your travels did you also try taking a Bible into Saudi Arabia? Not a beer or anything tangible which is prohibited, just words in a book. I'll wager you did not.

Id bet he didnt Johnny.....and youre actually kind of making part of my point.

America is about religious freedom, THAT is part of what sets us apart from others and makes us the great nation we are.

And yeah I do believe Islam is just another religion, to me they are all the same.......worship the Easter Bunny or Santa if you want, makes no matter to me. One superstition is just as good as another.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Ireland, Chile and Mexico all outlaw abortion for religious reasons. Should we clash with them as well or are they cool because we have the same religion, more or less....?

We are clashing with Mexico. We are being overrun with their illiterate and unskilled masses because the Church thinks sex is only for procreation. So the invasion of illegal aliens goes on unabated.

And as far as Ireland and Chile go, as long as they don't send Catholics over here to bomb abortion clinics to protest our policy. I'm fine with them.

 

[ink the world]

The only people interested in making this a war between the west and islam are al-quaeda and dick cheney, but you seem to buy into it based on info you get from talk radio or god knows where. Go travel to morocco, malaysia or bosnia. I didn't meet a single muslim in any of those places who thought 9/11 was a good thing...

Exactly Abe, well put.
2 very small percentages of fanatics getting richer from exploiting peoples fears and insecurities.

 

[abe23]

I didn't insult you. I called you out for talking out of your ass. It's different. If I'm wrong about where you get your insights into islam, please enlighten me...

And why on earth would I want to go to saudi arabia...? I'm also not in the habit of carrying bibles around so I wouldn't know. The point was....??

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Id bet he didnt Johnny.....and youre actually kind of making part of my point.

America is about religious freedom, THAT is part of what sets us apart from others and makes us the great nation we are.

And yeah I do believe Islam is just another religion, to me they are all the same.......worship the Easter Bunny or Santa if you want, makes no matter to me. One superstition is just as good as another.

Separation of church and state is based on tolerance.

There is no tolerance in Islam.

Definitely not just another religion. And it does not accept Western freedoms and concepts we take for granted.

Otherwise we wouldn't have honor killings over here.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I didn't insult you. I called you out for talking out of your ass. It's different. If I'm wrong about where you get your insights into islam, please enlighten me...

And why on earth would I want to go to saudi arabia...? I'm also not in the habit of carrying bibles around so I wouldn't know. The point was....??

I used a term which was appropriate to the discussion and you accuse me of talking out of my ass.

You need to stop applying lipstick to that pig, abe.

My point was possession of a book is illegal. Sharia Law after all. Religion intertwined with government.