DWC Root Slime Cure aka How to Breed Beneficial Microbes

Rongway

Member
Well, i didn't notice any slime on my roots, but they could have been whiter and more robust! No local hydro store for me unfortunately, if anyone else is looking for all the ingredients listed here online
http://www.atlantishydroponics.com/Soil-and-Soilless-Mixes/General-Hydroponics-General-Hydroponics-Ancient-Forest-05-cu-ft.asp

^^ They carry everything: ZHO, EWC, Aquashield, and Dutchmaster Gold line. I'm not sure how the prices compare to other discount hydro sites, most i've seen vary by a few bucks here and there on each product.

Thanks Heisenberg for the excellent write up! Looking forward to trying it out
 

dangledo

Well-Known Member
The epitome of a five star thread. Said once, but prob shoud be stickied. Have gone through the thread a handful of times, and I dont even use dwc. But soon enough I am going R. D.W.C. Do you apply the same way? I assume so. Should I not use any carbos while using this tea? thanks...:leaf:
 

frogster

Active Member
Compliments of cannabis dot com by way of ::: Greencoast Hydroponics' website has like EVERYTHING you ever wanted to know


Introduction to the Root Zone

Plant roots are arguably the most important part of a plant, and are also one of the most easily damaged. Root problems and disease are the most common source of problems for growers. If you want to maximize the the health and ultimate yield of your plants, it is wise to have a clear picture of the crucial activites going on at the root zone.

Roots are made up of tough, fibrous tissues containing cellulose, hemicellulose, and lignin which branch into the soil mass (or grow media,) anchoring a plant firmly. Their basic functions are critical for plant survival: they absorb water, oxygen and minerals, and they conduct these to where they are needed. With a strong and healthy root zone, plants are able to access what they need for vigourous growth. Without a healthy root system, your plants are doomed to be weak and spineless, or even worse, dead.

A healthy root zone is a continuously growing one. In many plants this cycle includes the natural death of older roots and the production of new ones. This cycle of death and regeneration is often mistaken by growers as a sign of disease, but so long as there are new roots developing, some root death should not be a concern.

Root Zone Health and Color
A young plant root system should have lots of white furry root tips everwhere. A healthy mature root system will be strong and fiborous and will have a thick root mat. If the roots are cream or yellow on top of the mat, they should still have many white root tips underneath at the bottom.

Thick, fat, white furry roots are what you most want to see - they are absolutely indicative of healthy root growth. Be aware however that the color of a nutrient solution will stain the roots, turning them yellow or brown. This is also true of many nutrient additives. Older, more mature plants will have a darker cream-colored root system, and some plants just tend to have a natural color pigment.

Root Zone Temperature
The temperature of the root zone and the temperature of the nutrient solution can have a major effect on the healthy growth and appearance of the root system. In general the temperature should be between 68 and 72 degrees farenheit. Colder or warmer conditions can cause poor and stunted root growth, as the roots don't want to grow into the unhospitable nutrient solution. Major root death can occur in even brief periods of cold or heat stress. Poor temperature conditions leave the door open to root disease.

Oxygen at the Root Zone
Lack of oxygen at the root zone is the leading cause of root death. Roots NEED oxygen. Roots should never sit in stagnant or ponding nutrient solution - make sure the trays are tilted and supported to drain completely. Lack of oxygen can also be caused by decomposing organic material in the nutrient solution or trays - this material should always be removed. . Another problem can be too many plants competing for too little oxygen. These problems are worsened by high root zone temperatures.

Nutrient reservoirs should always be aerated by and air pump and air stone. You can never have too much oxygen, so the more and stronger air pumps used, the better. We have had great succes adding air stones to the growing trays themselves, to supplement the root zone area with addtional oxygen. Some growers use H202 to add additional oxygen, as well.

EC/ TDS & pH
A nutrient strength level that is too high can be toxic to the root zone and will cause poor and stunted growth. At extreme levels, a too high level will cause actual death in the root zone. It is best to increase nutrient levels gradually over time rather than suddenly and all at once.



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Root-Microbe Symbiosis

The root zone of a plant is buzzing with life-essential processes of incredible complexity. This zone of intensive activity is called the rhizosphere. The root itself makes up part of the rhizosphere (the endorhizosphere), while the root hairs, mucigel, and root cells that have sloughed off constitute the ectorhizosphere.

The plant actually grows its own garden of microbes, along the root surfaces. To do this, the light energy captured from photosynthesis in the leaves is channeled down the stem through the phloem vessels and out through epidermal cells to the external root surface. Incredibly, up to 80% of the total plant energy--but usually 12 to 40%--is exuded as mucigel into the ectorhizosphere as carbohydrates, amino acids, and other energy-rich compounds. As the roots grow, the roots slough off dead cells which form a slimy covering and help the roots to slide easily as they grow. This slime is a food source for many millions of beneficial microbes. This food doesn't stay around long. Billions of bacteria, fungi, algae, actinomycetes, protozoa, and other microbes feed upon this exudate.

Those Phenomenal Mycorrhizae
Especially important are the mycorrhizal fungi which extend their thread-like hyphae from inside cortex cells out into the soil for several millimeters. They extend the feeding volume of the root by 10 to 1,000 times or more for most plant species (the cabbage family being a notable exception), and extract and carry nutrients back to the root. So important are they that scientists sometimes call the root zone the mycorrhizosphere. Pine trees will hardly grow without these fungi. There are two types- ectomycorrhiza and endomycorrhiza. Ectomycorrhiza are found in association with forest trees such as pines, eucalyptus and dipterocarps, while endomycorrhizal associations are formed in horticultural, forest and agronomic crops

Feeding On Exudate
In return for the release of nutritional substances from plant roots, microbes themselves produce chemicals that stimulate plant growth or protect the plant from attack. These substances include auxins, enzymes, vitamins, amino acids, indoles and antibiotics. These complex molecules are able to pass from the soil into plant cells and be transported to other parts of the plant, with minimal change to chemical structure, where they can stimulate plant growth and enhance plant reproduction. They may also play a role in enhancing the nutritional composition of the plant. The types of molecules released are specific for a variety of plants grown under certain conditions, forming in effect a unique chemical signature. As these molecules are released into the rhizosphere, they serve as food and growth stimulants for a certain mix of microbes.

The USDA Agricultural Research Service, and other scientists have shown that for each plant species, this characteristic chemical soup stimulates the development of a select, beneficial company of root-dwelling microbes. This microbial population colonizes the root zone, producing certain chemicals that inhibit the growth of pathogenic species. These organisms are also instrumental in supplying the plant’s unique nutritional needs .

The rhizosphere is always functioning for the plant whether it is growing in a field, in a pot, in a hydroponic media, or even in a lake or ocean. The details of function may differ somewhat, but the principles are the same in order for the plant to survive.


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Some of the main Beneficials at the Root Zone

Bacillus
Several varieties of Bacillus (i.e Bacillus megaterium) have been found to play a role in the conversion of unavailable forms of phosphates into plant available forms. In natural settings they can provide near 10% of the available phosphorous in the soil solution. With increased levels of plant available phosphorous, Bacillus strains become less effective. However, if the Bacillus can sustain as a back up it may continue to provide hungry blooms with phosphorous if it should become otherwise unavailable or “locked out”. This bacterium is of special interest to organic farmers who incorporate rock phosphate into the growing medium or if introduced through fertilizer teas, preparations, etc. Rock phosphate tends to be mostly unavailable, breaking down into plant available forms over time.

Certain forms of Bacillus are known to inhibit pythium and other pathogens. One of these is bacillus subtilis and is found in Hydroguard .

Mychorhizal Fung
Mycorrhizal fungi are especially effective in providing nutrients to plant roots. These are certain types of fungi that actually colonize the outer cells of plant roots, but also extend long fungal threads, or hyphae, far out into the rhizosphere, forming a critical link between the plant roots and the soil. Mycorrhizae produce enzymes that decompose organic matter, solubilize phosphorus and other nutrients from inorganic rock, and convert nitrogen into plant available forms. They also greatly expand the soil area from which the plant can absorb water. In return for this activity, mycorrhizae obtain valuable carbon and other nutrients from the plant roots. This is a win-win mutualism between both partners, with the plant providing food for the fungus and the fungus providing both nutrients and water to the plant. The importance of mycorrhizae in plant productivity and health has often been overlooked.It has been well documented that mycorrhizal plants are often more competitive and better able to tolerate environmental stress.Mycorrhizal technology has likewise made possible the production of inoculants to significantly improve the survival, growth and establishment of trees and crops.

M y•cor•rhi•zal - The symbiotic association of the mycelium of a fungus with the roots of a seed plant.

Nitrosomonas Bacteria
Species of aerobic bacteria which converts ammonia to nitrite. One of the critical bacteria in nitrogen cycle. Optimum pH range between 6.0 and 9.0, temperature 10oC - 34oC. Will acclimate to changes in water quality, but activity is reduced during acclimation which can lead to a build up of ammonia.
Nitrosomonas eat ammonia, they absolutely LOVE it. They Convert plant available ammonium (NH4) to unavailable nitrite (NO2).

Nitrobacteria
These bacteria convert the nitrite (NO2) resulting from the nitrification above into nitrate (NO3-), an important form of Nitrogen that all plants need.

Streptomyces
Bacteria that secrete a variety of compounds including antibiotics that prevent and control root zone pathogens. A closely related species of Streptomyces produces the antibiotic that we use, streptomycin. Many studies demonstrate the bacteria’s effectiveness at controlling root diseases, and select foliar diseases. An interesting consideration noted in one study is that they will also reduce levels of some nitrogen fixing bacteria in the soil.

Trichoderma
Some species of fungi that parasitize other fungi, such as Trichoderma, have been observed physically attacking and destroying pathogenic fungi. Strains of Trichoderma are found naturally occurring in many soils can play a role in the prevention and control of root pathogens, ultimately providing a healthier soil environment which can lead to higher yields. Some research suggests that the proteins in Trichoderma can degrade chitin, which is a structural component found in pathogenic fungi such as powdery mildew and in insects.

Some innovative propagation materials are inoculated with strains of Trichoderma.Many forms of coco coir contain it naturally. CANNA's Coco Growing Media is innoculated with it. If a healthy root environment is maintained, the bacteria will continue to colonize the roots and multiply in the growing media. The trichoderma help to form a protective layer around the root system, helping to fend off invading pathogens, etc.


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Root Health and Pathogen Control

In hydroponics we can promote a plant's rhizosphere capability by insuring it has the proper minerals, as well as a well aerated root zone to allow for good air and water movement . We also suggest using an organic amendment like Liquid Karma as well as a general enzymatic product like Hygrozyme or SensiZym from Advanced Nutrients that will encourage the proliferation of healthy rhizosphere microbes. You may also wish to use a root stimulator / stress reliever like CANNA Rhizotonic. It is a powerful, organic stress-reliever which stimulates new root development, increases resistance against disease and improves the vigour of plants.

Most root pathogens seem to be opportunistic -that is, they take advantage of weak and/or damaged roots. Thus the best defense is to keep roots healthy in the first place. In the beginning of this FAQ we went over some of the basics, those being temperature and oxygenation. We can also add a silica to the nutrient solution such as Silica Blast. Silica has been shown to greatly reduce plant death, root decay and yield losses caused by root disease. It does this by fortifying plant tissues against attack. The disease may still be present, but it is not able to do damage.

It has been found by numerous studies that plant roots colonized by a mixture of different bacterial and fungal species, are far more resistant to pathogenic attack. Mycorrhizal fungi form an impenetrable physical barrier on the surface of plant roots, varying in thickness, density and fungal species, according to the plant species, plant health and soil conditions. Ideally the beneficial microbes out-compete pathogenic species and form a protective layer on the surface of living plant roots. In soil it is usually only when the beneficial species of bacteria and fungi are killed by continuous soil disturbance and toxic chemicals that pathogenic species have an advantage.



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Using Good Microbes to fight the Bad Ones

There are a slew of new beneficial microbial products on the market, and they have a variety of effects ranging from breaking down nitrogen into useable forms to cleaning the roots to warding off negative microbiological pathogens. These good microbes also activate, enrich and stimulate the roots - they help to create beautiful fuzzy white root growth like you have never seen before.

The new array of products on the market can be confusing an misleading. We only sell products that we are familiar with and have personal experience with. Here are some of what we think are best.

Earth Ambrosia / Earth Nectar: a two-part mycorrhizal fungi innoculant - in liquid form

Down to earth mycorrhizal root innoculant: in powdered form for soil or coco

Piranha Piranha colonizes the root zone with 26 beneficial fungi (in powder form for hydro)

Tarrantula Bacterial blend of 57 microorganisms, with 1.4 billion Colony Forming Units per gram

Voodoo juice Liquid solution consisting of five strains of bacterial microbes, one is a nitrogen fixer

Botanicare Hydroguard Water treatment and pathogen supressor made of four benefical bacteria: Bacillus subtilis, Paenibacillus polymxa, Bacillus circulans, and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens.


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The Other Route: Keeping the Reservoir Sterile

Some would argue that one of the strengths of hydroponics is its sterile environment, and the notion of exposing growing systems to bacterial and fungal organisms would be self-defeating, if not sacrilegious. These growers rely on sterile growing environments, strong disinfectants and a product like SM-90. Another option is Hydrogen Peroxide. Each of these offer their own protection and benefits. But NEITHER SM-90 or Hydrogen Peroxide works well with organic aditives in the reservoir. They do not work well together and SM-90 has also been known to react poorly with Superthrive.

In a sterile growing environment, your goal is to have a super clean reservoir. This is harder than it sounds. Folks who have been growing in the same area with the same equipment for years might find that they are suddenly having root problems when they never had them before. Or a new grower might begin having problems right from the beginning.

Keeping your reservoir totally sterile can work very well, but once you get a population of icky badness it will keep coming back again and again. Some pathogens such as pythium are almost impossible to get rid of completelely. No matter how many times you sterilize everything with a bleach solution, the problem returns. It can get very frustrating and expensive to constanly be battling. More and more innovative growers are moving toward a more wholistic approach of using good microbes in the reservoir.


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Root Rot and Pythium

"Root rot" is a generic name for several common opportunistic waterborne diseases that can seriously affect indoor and outdoor crops year round. "Pythium" is the name of one of these diseases and is also used as a generic term for several different root rot and stem rot fungus species (including Pythium, Verticillium, and Phytophthora, and Fusarium). The term “damping-off” is also often used and usually applies to disease in seeds, seedlings and clones.

Whatever you call them, these diseases attack the roots of a plant and can rapidly infect crops in all stages. Damage includes reduced yields and crop failure. Pythium is particularly damaging in recirculating hydroponic systems as they provide ideal conditions for rapid growth and spread of infectious spores; a single infected plant can breed and send spores to all the plants.
The best thing is to prevent root rot from ever taking hold in the first place. It is an opportunistic disease which means that it is looking for sick, injured or weakened plants. Pythium is almost impossible to 100% eradicate from an infected system; this involves starting completely over (with new parents, containers, equipment, etc). It is probably present even if you don't know it - just waiting for its chance to get in.

“The best preventative measure against Pythium attack is a healthy, rapidly growing plant as this is an opportunist pathogen and will enter at the site of tissue injury or if the plants are overly succulent, weakened or stressed for some reason. Often root damage during the seedling stage as plants are introduced to the hydroponic system is a danger time for Pythium infection. Pythium is of greatest threat during the seed germination and seedling development stage when plants are most vulnerable to attack, and adequate control and elimination of the pathogen during this stage is the best preventative measure of Pythium control in hydroponic systems. Strong healthy plants will develop resistance to Pythium attack during the seedling stage and this will prevent problems at a later stage of growth. “

Dr. Lynette Morgan, Growing Edge Magazine
"Nutrient Temperature, Oxygen and Pythium in Hydroponics"t http://www.hydromall.com/grower/pyth...droponics.html

How to Avoid a bad case of Root Rot
Monitor plants and roots frequently
Maintain a clean system – change and sterilize reservoir weekly.
Design your system to combat pathogens
keep your nutrient reservoir between 68 and 72F to maximize root growth, Dissolved Oxygen levels and inhibition of Pythium. 80 degrees and above will bring on a fast case of root rot.
Constant aeration – maintaining high dissolved oxygen levels inhibits pathogens and accelerates root growth
keep a lid on your reservoir to keep plant matter and light out
Maintain a low pH of 6.2 or less to inhibit pythium growth

Use prevention!! Use tank additives to give your roots the edge they need to grow strong and healthy!! Check out the Roots and Prevention section.


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Bacterial slime and other horrifying nasties

These are not the beneficial bacteria and fungi that we have already spoken about. These bacteria cause cloudy reservoirs, slimy build up, weird reservoir fuzz, gelatin growths and wild pH fluctuations. These are the reservoir monsters.
When these bad microbes are present at high populations and are happily feeding on organic matter, they use up just about all the oxygen in the nutrient solution, suffocating the plants. They release toxic substances as a biproduct of their life cycle. They also suppress the good microbes at the root zone and cause problems with nutrient uptake and plant growth.

Bacteria slime and cloudy reservoirs
Bacteria can make the water cloudy, but tend to produce more of a slime or jellylike, smelly mass in the system.If you have it, you will notice slimy reservoir walls and perhaps an oily slick on the water. Another symptom can be a foamy buildup in the reservoir. If left to their own devices, these bacterial growths will smother the roots, depriving them of oxygen. Some species of anaerobic bacteria thrive in an environment deprived of oxygen and can produce chemical metabolites, such as alcohols, aldehydes, phenols and ethylene, that are toxic to plant roots and to other microorganisms.

Other symptoms of bacterial infections can be fuzzy, cotton like growths, or the growth of fur. Just in case you are wondering, that white fuzzy growth you see at the tip of your roots is desireable. That is not bacteria - That is the good stuff - you should see tiny fine white hairs at thje roots.

All of these nasties require organic matter to feed on. They may be there as the result of a buildup of dead roots and leaves in the root zone, but usually they are the result of adding an organic product to the reservoir. If the conditions are just right, the bacteria will begin to thrive.

One option is to use no organic additives at all and to rely strictly on chemical nutrients based on fertilizer salts. We think a better choice is to continue using organic material, but also using an enzymatic addtive like Hygrozyme that will break down the unwanted organic matter in the reservoir . If you would like to use additives such as bat guano, compost or fish-based products, you might consider run to waste instead of a recirculating system.



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What to do if you have a bacterial or fungal infection

You will want to completely clean out your system - if you can, you should remove each plant, rinse it off, perhaps even dip it in an H202 solution. You should trim off any dead roots. you should then clean your entire system using a strong bleach or h202 solution. We suggest soaking everything in bleach for a few hours. You will definately want to soak your pump and any tubing in bleach. Make sure you rinse everything very well before putting the plants back in .

If your plants are damaged, you might want to run the nutrient solution at a lower concentration than usual. We highly recommend using an enzymatic addditive such as Hygrozyme (after everything has been cleaned&sterilized ...). . You should also run a stress relief additive like CANNA Rhizotonic. We always suggest using Liquid Karma , but if your problem is real bad, you might want to lay off the organics a little bit.

While your roots are really hurting, you may want to foliar feed your plants with Nitrozime or Dutch Master If you haven't already, you should read the section above about inncoulating your system with good microbes.

Keep an eye on your reservoir. Be prepared to clean it out regularly, as soon as any sign of a infections (cloudy water or wild pH fluctuations) occur.

Remember IT IS MUCH EASIER TO PREVENT a pathogenic attack than it is to ddeal with it once it has occured!
 

frogster

Active Member
I mixed up 4gallons of Tea... I added the EWC (worm casting soil) to a long sock with a bit of hydroton and the airstone... I figured the hydroton would act like a little house for them to hang out in... My reservoir looks fairly clean after I put in about 5oz of 30%h202,, plants look happy,, no slime on roots... But as soon as 48hrs is up, I'm dumping and putting in the "B" team... I cant wait to see how the plants react...
 

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Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the ton of info frogster. I do disagree with one thing though.

In hydroponics we can promote a plant's rhizosphere capability by insuring it has the proper minerals, as well as a well aerated root zone to allow for good air and water movement . We also suggest using an organic amendment like Liquid Karma as well as a general enzymatic product like Hygrozyme or SensiZym from Advanced Nutrients that will encourage the proliferation of healthy rhizosphere microbes
Enzymes are probably ok in an ebb and flow as roots that sit in air most of the time aren't effected by slime. In a DWC however, especially one afflicted with slime, and enzyme product is likely to make things much worse. Organic material in a DWC is a big no-no, unless you are doing biobuckets, which is a much different and more involved beast. They recommend feeding the microbes an organic admendment so they wont starve, but of course we don't worry about that since we add new ones every few days.

Also, the tea can be used in a RDWC just fine. The only time you might run into problems is if you use a system with really small sprayers or tubing. My pumps have never gotten clogged. By the time you'll want to use carbos, which I assume is well into bud, your plants should have a huge root system populated with microlife, so I don't see any problems with it.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
They carry everything: ZHO, EWC, Aquashield, and Dutchmaster Gold line. I'm not sure how the prices compare to other discount hydro sites, most i've seen vary by a few bucks here and there on each product.
Actually those prices are very good for the DM nutes! I'm gonna have to switch providers. Thanks for the link.

And thanks to GreenWillie who showed me a great place to get microbes for cheap. Fungi.com sells tabs that contain a more complete army of microbes than even great white offers, and for only $6 an ounce. An ounce should last several months or more, depending on the size of your garden of course. Needless to say that is dirt cheap. This product would replace the aquashield and ZHO by a mile. I will be trying this in the tea at some point. If anyone else decides to try it please let us know your results.

It's interesting to note that the product they sell for hydro purposes only contains the glomus fungi. This is probably because in hydro they don't expect you to need microbes to break down organic material, or to fight off disease. They include the glomus fungi because it is largely responsible for increasing the surface area of roots which in turn increases water uptake. Perhaps in hydro systems with sprayers and small openings the other microbes may cause clogging, so they don't include them. That's my guess anyway. But for our purposes we want diversity, and DWC doesn't have anything to get clogged, so I am going with the MycoGrow Solubletabs which contain...

Endomycorrhizal fungi Glomus intraradices, Glomus mosseae, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus clarum, Glomus deserticola, Glomus etunicatum, Gigaspora margarita, Gigaspora brasilianum, Gigaspora monosporum

Ectomycorrhizal fungi Rhizopogon villosullus, Rhizopogon luteolus, Rhizopogon amylopogon, Rhizopogon fulvigleba, Pisolithus tinctorius, Laccaria bicolor, Laccaria laccata, Scleroderma cepa, Scleroderma citrinum, Suillus granulatas, Suillus punctatapies

Trichoderma Trichoderma harzianum, Trichoderma konigii

Beneficial Bacteria Bacillus subtillus, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus azotoformans, Bacillus megaterium, Bacillus coagulans, Bacillus pumlis, Bacillus thuringiensis, Bacillus stearothermiphilis, Paenibacillus polymyxa, Paenibacillus durum, Paenibacillus florescence, Paenibacillus gordonae, Azotobacter polymyxa, Azotobacter chroococcum, Sacchromyces cervisiae, Streptomyces griseues, Streptomyces lydicus, Pseudomonas aureofaceans, Deinococcus erythromyxa


Another thing GreenWillie shared was that spraying the tea directly on the roots and net pots seems to give it a jump start, and perhaps works better than only dumping it into the res. I have not tried this yet because I am preparing to move soon; shutting the garden down for a bit. But some quick research suggests that Willie is correct.
 

dangledo

Well-Known Member
Also, the tea can be used in a RDWC just fine. The only time you might run into problems is if you use a system with really small sprayers or tubing. My pumps have never gotten clogged. By the time you'll want to use carbos, which I assume is well into bud, your plants should have a huge root system populated with microlife, so I don't see any problems with it.
not going to drip, just let the bubbles splash the hydroton a bit. the tubing is 2 inches. so basically there is enough of an army of micros that the byproduct of carbs, enzymes, cant help out any slime, that maybe present? is this why it would be safe? sorry, just trying to make sure I understand. thanks heisenberg-u da man.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
not going to drip, just let the bubbles splash the hydroton a bit. the tubing is 2 inches. so basically there is enough of an army of micros that the byproduct of carbs, enzymes, cant help out any slime, that maybe present? is this why it would be safe? sorry, just trying to make sure I understand. thanks heisenberg-u da man.
I wouldn't recommend ever using an enzyme product in a DWC. The microbes will make their own enzymes, and they'll make just enough. The benefits you get from enzymes, such as breaking down dead roots, will happen easily with just the bennies. As for carbs, you should be using a carboload or bud sweetener formulated for hydro, which means it's already broken down and available for uptake. In this form it shouldn't feed the slime, and once your plants have a large root system they should be primed for disease resistance on their own. It should be noted that even when my veg and clone buckets were plagued with endless slime, my older established plants in bud never showed the slightest sign of it, even without any treatment.
 

dangledo

Well-Known Member
i got ya. dont want you to think i was asking q's without reading first. i understand the enzyme feeding the slime, im under the impression that when directly feeding the roots, or micros, with carbos that the end product is the enzymes, from the micros feeding.? thats what I was worried about, but u did reiterate for me so I appreciate it. ive seen everything youve written about supplementing with Great white, when out of a suggested product. I also have plenty of voodoo left over too. thoughts of incorporating voodoo in any way? I am for surely hunting down every product you suggested, and going to follow instructions to a T, no pun intended. its just that the left over stuff I have is pricey, would like to hear what you have to say about it. thanks for your patience! seems the slime humbles one, very quickly. Merry Christmas everyone!!!
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Voodoo juice from AN is just a collection of bacillis bacteria, in other words it's a fancy packaged version of aquashield for over 10x the price. In addition to overcharging, the advertising is misleading.

One of the species of bacteria in Voodoo Juice is a nitrogen fixing super-strain called Paenibacillus. This PGPR provides plants with a constant 'trickle' feed of reduced nitrogen as it converts N2 gas in the air into ammoniacal nitrogen or NH3 inside the roots and shoots of plants.

The other super-strains in Voodoo Juice are of the Bacillus species. These are nitrifying bacteria since they can convert soil and root-zone NH3 into nitrates (NO3), which is further useable by plants. Voodoo Juice is like having a concentrate of the nitrogen cycle in a bottle.
As I explained in an earlier post, the nitrogen fixing must happen in a very low oxygen environment. I can't think of any hydro setup that doesn't oxygenate the water in some way. On a micro level there may be tiny pockets of low oxygen water where nitrogen fixing may occur, but that's entirely different than "having a concentrate of the nitrogen cycle in a bottle". The Paenibacillus strain does secrete several substances that enhance root cell growth as well as anitbiotics, so it's an excellent species to have, just not for the reasons they hype. Aquashield has all the species they brag about here, for $12 a bottle vs $80. ($107 at my hydro store).

But to anwer your question, yes you should be able to use the voodoo as a sub for aquashield. Just use 15-30ml per brew as you would aquashield. The AN products tarantula and piranha WILL cause more slime for whatever reason. They shouldn't, but they do. Voodoo juice however doesn't seem to have this problem.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Ok after doing some further research on this mycogrow powder from fungi.com, it appears to be exactly the same as great white, without the 'bio-stimulant" package and the plant vitamins. In our case the molasses is the stimulant, so we don't need that. The smallest great white product appears to be 4oz, and costs around $40. To buy an equivalent amount of the mycogrow powder would cost $24. This combo does offer a few disease fighting strains of bacteria you wont get with just aquashield+ZHO, but most of the extra bacteria seems to be nitrogen fixers. (including some that do have limited activity in oxygenated water) There is some yeast in there for B12 production, and lots of mutualistic fungi which would help to induce pathogen resistance. It's obvious that a lot of the microbes were selected for soil which has organics that need broken down. All in all this stuff is cheap and diverse, but if aquashield+ZHO is easier for you, then stick with that.
 

Shafto

Active Member
Great thread Heisenberg. You've helped many people.

I'm wondering what you think of the Technaflora lineup of nutrients? I'm currently using the "recipe for success" Though the "pure vida" lineup is a fully organic regime made for hydro, looks interesting too. The recipe for success has been working great. I'm curious though if anything I'm using has benies in it? If the Root Excel is a seaweed product, and it has benies, then is the B1-Red I use also have benies? It's a seaweed product as well.

The root 66 says it has some benies in it, what do you think of it?

http://www.technaflora.com/products.php?product=30

I have it, but haven't used any of it, because in the recipe for success it says to use it for "transplanting stage" I don't really have a transplanting stage. When I looked around the the Technaflora forums, which seem to be impossible to sign up for, I found this from the admin there:

"Root 66 can be used in the seedling and transplant stage and also in vegetative growth from time to time (once every couple of weeks) to promote healthy root establishment. When using in the Veg stage, use it on its own; that is to say, irrigate with Root 66 when not irrigating with the other nutrients. "

Why would you not want to mix the root66 in with the other nutrients I wonder? Is this product suitable to make tea with?

I've also been adding the sugardaddy product right to my res with no problems. My temps are low though. I want it in there to make sure I get the best flavour possible, but I'd like to add some benies to make sure it's all getting eaten by the right things.

Again, great work, thanks.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I have no personal experience with Technaflora, but I have heard many good reviews.

Well after about an hour of reading up on R66, I really don't know much more about it. In any case, I would not use this in the tea. I would use it as they direct, if at all. One of the things it is suppose to do is encourage a plant to be bushy, not something I necessarily want.

One post complained about a brown substance on his roots after using R66 and sugardaddy together. The response was, the product contains Humic acid. Humic acid acts as a sort of bio-stimulant for both the plant and microlife. Seems to me like this is more of a root and plant conditioner, and not really a microbe product.

If you want to be sure to have a nice diverse microbe community then the EWC tea will do the trick, and give your roots a boost. Alternatively you could get some of the soluble powder from fungi.com which has everything you need.
 

dangledo

Well-Known Member
Voodoo juice from AN is just a collection of bacillis bacteria, in other words it's a fancy packaged version of aquashield for over 10x the price. In addition to overcharging, the advertising is misleading.

As I explained in an earlier post, the nitrogen fixing must happen in a very low oxygen environment. I can't think of any hydro setup that doesn't oxygenate the water in some way. On a micro level there may be tiny pockets of low oxygen water where nitrogen fixing may occur, but that's entirely different than "having a concentrate of the nitrogen cycle in a bottle". The Paenibacillus strain does secrete several substances that enhance root cell growth as well as anitbiotics, so it's an excellent species to have, just not for the reasons they hype. Aquashield has all the species they brag about here, for $12 a bottle vs $80. ($107 at my hydro store).

But to anwer your question, yes you should be able to use the voodoo as a sub for aquashield. Just use 15-30ml per brew as you would aquashield. The AN products tarantula and piranha WILL cause more slime for whatever reason. They shouldn't, but they do. Voodoo juice however doesn't seem to have this problem.
duly noted, my second and last bottle.... thanks as always.
 

Shafto

Active Member
Thanks Heisenberg. Can the tea be made with only the earth worm castings and molassas? One less thing to order anyway.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Thanks Heisenberg. Can the tea be made with only the earth worm castings and molassas? One less thing to order anyway.
Sure, you would still get a very diverse community. The other stuff just guarantees you have the disease fighting strains. If your goal is organic decomposition the EWC alone will be just fine.
 

Rongway

Member
2 day turn around on my order, got the works. Gonna start brewing up a fresh batch for my next reservoir change! Is Dutchmaster more PH stable than the GH line?
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
2 day turn around on my order, got the works. Gonna start brewing up a fresh batch for my next reservoir change! Is Dutchmaster more PH stable than the GH line?
I really can't say because when I was using GH I had the slime problem and that constantly messed with the PH. I continued to have PH flux after I switched to DM. It wasn't until I started using bennies that the PH became stable. Now my PH only needs adjusted slightly every 1-3 days. I set it to 5.5-5.8 and let it drift upwards near 6.3 before adjusting it back down.

What I have noticed with DM is that it seems to be difficult to burn the plants. I have pushed the PPM's up to 2000 before without any signs of burn. I have since realized that PPM level isn't necessary of course. I max it out at 1300-1600 now depending on the strain. I keep records of the PPM flux and use that to judge the max for the strain.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Well when I started this thread I stated that bennies serve no other purpose in a hydro set up other than to cure and prevent disease. Since that time we have discovered together that bennies do indeed offer a few small advantages aside from fighting infection.

Surface area of the roots is definitely increased with bennies, which equals slightly faster water uptake. That does suggest faster nute uptake if your system is dialed in.

Roots develop faster and become more robust. It still seems to me that once the rootbase reaches a certain size it slows way down, but it also seems like bennies help it get to that size faster.

Water temperatures can be pretty much forgotten. Your room should be between 75-80f, which means your res water will be low to mid 70's. Thankfully the bennies like this just fine.

Light proofing isn't necessary. Although I still make an effort to cover as much as I can, I no longer have the need to be meticulous about light proofing the res. I believe roots prefer darkness, but I have been lazy at times and let light shine directly into the res for days and days, and never seen the first hint of algae.

Enzyme products aren't necessary. Bennies make their own and eat up all the dead roots. Tell the hydro store guy no thanks.


Also something I suppose is worth mentioning is, ALWAYS wash your hands when you mess around with bennies. For the most part, these microbes are not pathogenic and their presents in your res water will only increase exposure slightly above background levels, if at all. The average student gets far worse stuff from their classroom keyboard. However, in an immunodeficient person some of these microbes could pose a threat. I simply avoid touching my face while i'm working in the garden, and splash a little rubbing alcohol on my hands when I leave. I am not immunodeficient, but I have a 17y/o cat I don't wish to expose.
 

neobes

Well-Known Member
Heisenberg,

I now have nothing but white, healthy roots in my DWC plants. I've tried everything at great expense over a period of years, and nothing has produced white roots like your tea. White roots and fast-growing, healthy plants. Thanks a million!!

I'm sure you've made more than one corporate juggernaut nutrient company(Advanced Nutrients anyone?) sad with your postings.

On a side note, any thoughts on using the sock full 'o dirt for more than 1 batch of tea?

You're the greatest!!!

neobes
 
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