national health care...how awesome!

[redivider]

yeah i'm not gonna try and argue history, b/c no matter how much we argue, it's not gonna change.

the future.... that's another story.....

 

[newatit2010]

When I wrote my senator to get a waiver he sends me a long letter about health care that don't mean shit. But that is all I ever get from the assholes. They don't give a damn about the American people just their life time appointments. Fuck the government and their socialist agendas.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

733 waivers granted thus far.

Not only are the payoffs an affront to our democracy and an outright assault on our taxpayers, the timing itself of the latest release makes a mockery of this administration’s transparency promises. More than 500 of the 733 waivers, we now know, were granted in December but kept conveniently under wraps until the day after the president’s State of the Union address. HHS is no stranger to covering up bad news; in fact, this is becoming a disturbing pattern. Last year, Secretary Kathleen Sebelius hid from Congress until after the Obamacare vote a damning report from the Medicare and Medicaid Office of the Actuary showing Obamacare would cost $311 billion more than promised and would displace 14 million Americans from their current insurance.

For this administration, transparency promises last only until the teleprompter is unplugged.

Backroom deals and cover-ups may be business as usual for Washington, but understanding why the Obama administration protects its friends from Obamacare offers special insight into what the purveyors of the mandate themselves think about their own law. This is key: The waivers aren’t meant to protect victims from unintended consequences of Obamacare; they are meant to exempt them from the very intentional increased costs of health insurance that the law causes. Under Section 2711 of the Public Health Service Act, Obamacare increases the annual cap of insurance benefits, which sounds great - as does everything else in big government - until the bill comes due, in this case, in the form of higher insurance premiums.

Tawdry details of Obamacare: White House quietly exempts pampered politicos

 

[UncleBuck]

When I wrote my senator to get a waiver he sends me a long letter about health care that don't mean shit. But that is all I ever get from the assholes. They don't give a damn about the American people just their life time appointments. Fuck the government and their socialist agendas.

tell me how being compelled to buy insurance from a private company is socialism, please.

 

[Rob Roy]

tell me how being compelled to buy insurance from a private company is socialism, please.

Compelled is a kinder gentler way of saying "do it or we'll kill you". Nice.

 

[UncleBuck]

Compelled is a kinder gentler way of saying "do it or we'll kill you". Nice.

please cite the part of the patient protection and affordable care act that states that you will be killed if you don't buy insurance.

nice way to try to obfuscate the issue though. i asked why buying insurance from a private company is socialism, you pointed out how the government wants to kill you.

persecution complex much?

 

[Rob Roy]

please cite the part of the patient protection and affordable care act that states that you will be killed if you don't buy insurance.

nice way to try to obfuscate the issue though. i asked why buying insurance from a private company is socialism, you pointed out how the government wants to kill you.

persecution complex much?

What will happen to a person that says "no thanks, and refuses being compelled" ?

I'm not obfuscating the issue, I'm proving the issue....carry it out....what will happen if a person refuses to be compelled?

 

[UncleBuck]

What will happen to a person that says "no thanks, and refuses being compelled" ?

I'm not obfuscating the issue, I'm proving the issue....carry it out....what will happen if a person refuses to be compelled?

a fine, if they happen to earn enough.

 

[Rob Roy]

a fine, if they happen to earn enough.

What if they say no thanks and don't pay the fine? What if they say no thanks I won't go to your jail? Will they be killed ?
Check mate.

 

[UncleBuck]

What if they say no thanks and don't pay the fine? What if they say no thanks I won't go to your jail? Will they be killed ?
Check mate.

you obviously have no idea how to play chess.

don't pay the fine? they only would have to pay the fine if they earn a certain amount. the irs would simply garnish that amount from their wages, put a levy on something or the other, bla bla bla.

jail for tax evasion does not happen over $700. well, it may, i don't really know. but suppose you say you don't want to go to jail. they make you anyway.

you make it sound like if you don't pay the fine the government sends an irs agent to your door with a high-powered rifle and they shoot you in the head. you obviously don't live in the real world.

persecution complex much?

 

[Rob Roy]

you obviously have no idea how to play chess.

don't pay the fine? they only would have to pay the fine if they earn a certain amount. the irs would simply garnish that amount from their wages, put a levy on something or the other, bla bla bla.

jail for tax evasion does not happen over $700. well, it may, i don't really know. but suppose you say you don't want to go to jail. they make you anyway.

you make it sound like if you don't pay the fine the government sends an irs agent to your door with a high-powered rifle and they shoot you in the head. you obviously don't live in the real world.

persecution complex much?

You say, they will make you go to jail? What if you say no thanks and refuse to? Will they say, oh we're sorry, we'll leave you alone and go play chess with Uncle Buck ? I don't think they will. What will they do then? Will they kill you?

I don't live in the real world? How so? Government agents don't have guns ? I think they do, in fact I know they do. How is that "not living in the real world?"

Persecution complex? Yeah, I guess you're right that government is force thing is all in my head. Ever hear any George Washington quotes on force and government? Not saying George has a complex too are you?

 

[NoDrama]

You have to owe a shit load of cash to go to jail. Normally what happens is they attach your pay, freeze all your accounts, confiscate all your possessions, take your house and sell it and then they will go after your relatives for the rest of it. Jail would be too easy and death a relief.

 

[UncleBuck]

You say, they will make you go to jail? What if you say no thanks and refuse to? Will they say, oh we're sorry, we'll leave you alone and go play chess with Uncle Buck ? I don't think they will. What will they do then? Will they kill you?

no, they'll put you in jail anyway if they want to.

they only kill you if you threaten their lives (theoretically, that is. you may also die clutching a golf club without having had the chance to comply with commands. but that is beside the point).

I don't live in the real world? How so? Government agents don't have guns ? I think they do, in fact I know they do. How is that "not living in the real world?"

i will only acknowledge that you live in the real world when you acknowledge that the only reason law enforcement has to kill someone is if you threaten their life (or commit a crime worthy of capital punishment, which i disagree with). not paying your taxes is not a crime punishable by death here in the real world.

Persecution complex? Yeah, I guess you're right that government is force thing is all in my head. Ever hear any George Washington quotes on force and government? Not saying George has a complex too are you?

yes, persecution complex. government uses force, but not to the hyberbolic degree that you concoct in that noggin of yours. i'm pretty sure if george washington were to post in this thread, he would mock you.

 

[UncleBuck]

You have to owe a shit load of cash to go to jail. Normally what happens is they attach your pay, freeze all your accounts, confiscate all your possessions, take your house and sell it and then they will go after your relatives for the rest of it. Jail would be too easy and death a relief.

thank you for injecting some logic into this debate.

the only reason they have to initiate deadly force is if you threaten their life somehow.

for example, clutching a golf club versus several men in riot gear with tazers.

 

[Rob Roy]

You have to owe a shit load of cash to go to jail. Normally what happens is they attach your pay, freeze all your accounts, confiscate all your possessions, take your house and sell it and then they will go after your relatives for the rest of it. Jail would be too easy and death a relief.

In order to "owe" something there must have been a mutually agreed arrangement.

The fact that somebody or a group of "somebodies" declares you "owe" something absent any mutual agreement is the beginning of the extortion/rationalization cycle.

If you can't be a part in setting the terms, then your "owing" is really not by mutual consent, it is founded in forced subservience and it is an involuntary transaction. That kind of transaction is dependent not upon mutual benefit and acceptance, rather it is founded on an imposition of force of the stronger on the weaker.

But then you already know that.

 

[UncleBuck]

In order to "owe" something there must have been a mutually agreed arrangement.

The fact that somebody or a group of "somebodies" declares you "owe" something absent any mutual agreement is the beginning of the extortion/rationalization cycle.

If you can't be a part in setting the terms, then your "owing" is really not by mutual consent, it is founded in forced subservience and it is an involuntary transaction. That kind of transaction is dependent not upon mutual benefit and acceptance, rather it is founded on an imposition of force of the stronger on the weaker.

But then you already know that.

tell it to the judge.

*appeal denied*

 

[Rob Roy]

tell it to the judge.

*appeal denied*

So you've given up trying to prove me wrong and now rely on the "this is what will happen to you if you don't submit to force argument"? That's interesting. What happens if I refuse to go before the judge? Will they kill me yet?

 

[Rob Roy]

thank you for injecting some logic into this debate.

the only reason they have to initiate deadly force is if you threaten their life somehow.

for example, clutching a golf club versus several men in riot gear with tazers.

If they are "initiating deadly force" aren't they ones threatening your life? Seems the guy clutching the golf club is trying to defend himself, he isn't initiating force, he is acting defensively. I think you are confusing how the process started. It was started by one party, trying to collect on a debt that another had no part in agreeing to. That puts the golf club guy in a defensive posture not an offensive or "force initiating posture".

 

[Rob Roy]

no, they'll put you in jail anyway if they want to.

they only kill you if you threaten their lives (theoretically, that is. you may also die clutching a golf club without having had the chance to comply with commands. but that is beside the point).



i will only acknowledge that you live in the real world when you acknowledge that the only reason law enforcement has to kill someone is if you threaten their life (or commit a crime worthy of capital punishment, which i disagree with). not paying your taxes is not a crime punishable by death here in the real world.



yes, persecution complex. government uses force, but not to the hyberbolic degree that you concoct in that noggin of yours. i'm pretty sure if george washington were to post in this thread, he would mock you.

Government is not eloquent. It is not reason. It is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

 

[UncleBuck]

So you've given up trying to prove me wrong and now rely on the "this is what will happen to you if you don't submit to force argument"?

no, i am telling you what will happen if you try to use your rights as a citizen of this country to argue your definition of 'owe' in regards to income taxes. you will be smacked in the face by reality.

you can say all you want that you 'do not give your consent' to pay taxes. that statement in true and can never be disproven.

but your definition of 'owe' and 'extortion' are not the ones we play by. they are very narrow definitions that you have convinced yourself of. they are imaginary conditions you have made up (your persecution complex) that you can avoid if you choose to.

the advanced state of the country you are a citizen of is at least in part due to our government, which is a product of we the people, our founding fathers, and the constitution they wrote. if we the people played by your rules, do you think so many of them would recognize the need to be extorted and fraudulently owe to an extortionist? do you think federal income taxes and the like would still exist tomorrow if everyone on the internet were to hear your brand of 'truth'?

That's interesting. What happens if I refuse to go before the judge? Will they kill me yet?

see, this is why i have taken to saying that you seem to have a 'persecution complex' lately.

you are extremely unwilling to concede even a millimeter from your rigid rulebook of 'extortion' and 'the government will kill you' and i find it comical.

even when a fellow-minded (but more reality-based) thinker like nodrama chimes in with what really happens (wage garnishments, etc) ... you still persist with the whole 'will the government kill me if i miss a court date' routine (which i know is code for 'yes, they will kill me' thanks to your 'checkmate' exclamation in regards to the health insurance mandate. thanks for that gem).

but to answer your question about not showing up for a court date: they will issue a warrant for your arrest which they will not actively pursue from what i understand through anecdotal evidence. also, i once missed a court date for a speeding ticket for about 6 months, realized it, called the court, and made good. it was a $300 ticket, which is not the $700 (or so) fine for health insurance, but i think it probably works about the same.

in other words, they won't kill you.