The Obama plan vs. the Ryan plan

[mame]

Obama finished his speech a bit ago about his proposal to cut $4 trillion over the next 10 years. Ryan, who also released his plan recently, has proposed $4.4 trillion.

Obama's plan includes dropping earners making more than 250k off of the bush tax cuts, closing loopholes and lowering the tax rate, cuts ~600 billion from the discretionary budget, and seeks to control medicare costs. There are plenty more details, I'll link to them once I find the complete plan (.pdf).

Ryan's plan, found here, cuts taxes on the wealthy by ~3 trillion, cuts discretionary spending by about 1.6 trillion, privatizes Medicare via a voucher system, makes the bush tax cuts permanent, closes loopholes and drops rates, among other things...

I have plenty of beef about Ryan's plan including that they cut ~3 trillion total spending (discretionary and medicare cuts) and literally hand that money to the top earners in cuts. They claim this will actually amount to net increase in revenue because they'd be "broadening the base" but to do this - we'd have to be on the wrong side of the Laffer curve (hint: up is up, down is down at current rates).

Almost all of the proposed savings in medicare come via shifting the costs from ~70% government contribution to ~30%. Doing nothing to control costs - instead pushing them onto medicare receipiants.

Besides that, Ryan offers no cuts in military spending. He also leaves subsidies for big oil in place while removing those for clean energy like solar and wind.

thoughts?

 

[londonfog]

a think he made some excellent points... Liked how he stated he nor warren buffet needs a tax cut... anyone who is making over 250,000 a year really does not..that alone will drop the deficit...Ryans plan is crazy...vouchers for health..really ??? Hs plan just make the rich richer by taking from those who could use it more..and if you don't have defense on the table you not serious

 

[mame]

a think he made some excellent points... Liked how he stated he nor warren buffet needs a tax cut... anyone who is making over 250,00 a year really does not..that alone will drop the deficit...Ryans plan is crazy...vouchers for health..really ??? Hs plan just make the rich richer by taking from those who could use it more

According to Paul Krugman, Ryan's plan will end up costing money - rather than save it. If this is true than I dont know how the hell the GOP will defend it. PK contends that because all of the cuts go towards lower taxes on the wealthy - and the fact that tax cuts do not increase revenue by "broadening the base" (unless we're on the other side of the laffer curve ofc) none of the savings claimed ever materialize... besides that - and the heritage foundation actually removed part of it from the current .pdf file - Ryan claims there will be a big economic boom and that unemployment will drop to below 3%... HA!

 

[NoDrama]

It is only a proposal, I doubt any of it gets implemented. BTW its 4 trillion over the next 12 years, not ten.

 

[Serapis]

Haven't we learned from the past that taking away from the poor and giving breaks to the rich doesn't create a broader tax base?

 

[UncleBuck]

Haven't we learned from the past that taking away from the poor and giving breaks to the rich doesn't create a broader tax base?

some people are stuck in la la land.

they haven't realized that since we started this whole 'trickle down' thingy, wages for americans have remained stagnant or decreased.

meanwhile, the debt and deficit has skyrocketed. so at least they have something to yell about when the democrats get into office.

 

[JoSixChip]

Lets see, the top 10% of wage earners pay 70% of total income taxes collected. Bottom 50% of wage earners pay less then 3% of total income taxes collected. Source IRS for year 2008, the latest data available.

Now you tell me who is and is not paying their fair share. We need to go back to the days when only land owners could vote, and then only if they contribute more then they receive via government welfare. The idea that those who leach off others should have a vote in how much others should pay is disgusting.

 

[UncleBuck]

Lets see, the top 10% of wage earners pay 70% of total income taxes collected. Bottom 50% of wage earners pay less then 3% of total income taxes collected. Source IRS for year 2008, the latest data available.

since you brought it up, i would say the top 10% paying about 70% of the taxes is about right, considering they own more than 70% of the wealth.

and since the bottom 40% own less than 1% of the wealth, their rate seems to be too steep.

hint: this is the wrong approach to take, especially considering the changes in wealth distribution in the country over the last few decades.

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm

Now you tell me who is and is not paying their fair share.

corporations.

example: GE. i have not seen the data, but a prominent poster in the politics section claims they made $5.2 billion last year, paid $0, and got $4.2 million back.

do you like the idea that your tax dollars go to corporate welfare and support oil companies that make record profits by gauging you at the pump?

We need to go back to the days when only land owners could vote, and then only if they contribute more then they receive via government welfare. The idea that those who leach off others should have a vote in how much others should pay is disgusting.

soldiers get paid off the government teet, and when they come home they get entitlements out the wazoo. should soldiers not be able to vote?

i know a former marine right now who rents an apartment and is living on unemployment and food stamps....should he not be able to vote?

you are TOO easy. try again.

 

[JoSixChip]

soldiers get paid off the government teet, and when they come home they get entitlements out the wazoo. should soldiers not be able to vote?

i know a former marine right now who rents an apartment and is living on unemployment and food stamps....should he not be able to vote?

you are TOO easy. try again.

Typical liberal BS, A soldiers pay is not welfare.

 

[UncleBuck]

Typical liberal BS, A soldiers pay is not welfare.

well, how about when he gets home.

like i said, i have a friend who is a former marine. he lives off unemployment right now and gets other entitlements, way more than he contributes back.

should he not be allowed to vote?

 

[JoSixChip]

well, how about when he gets home.

like i said, i have a friend who is a former marine. he lives off unemployment right now and gets other entitlements, way more than he contributes back.

should he not be allowed to vote?

You stop contributing, you stop voting. You start contributing, you start voting. PERIOD.

 

[UncleBuck]

so old people don't get to vote anymore unless they work to their deathbed?

that would help us get cannabis legalized, perhaps.

but depriving granny of her vote seems so wrong.

 

[Charlie Ventura]

I'm not a Democrat nor am I a Republican. I am a Constitutional Conservative. I have read Mises, Hayak and Friedman. With that said, can anyone posting in this forum name one single country that has gotten out of debt by raising taxes? We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Every dollar that is confiscated by the government in the form of taxes, is a dollar taken out of the private sector that could have gone into producing products, sales and jobs. Government produces nothing it just consumes. The way out of our mess is to cut spending across the board where everyone feels the pain. Then abolish our entire current tax system and replace is with a simple sales tax that every citizen pays. The answer is to get the government out of our lives as much as possible.

 

[redivider]

Lets see, the top 10% of wage earners pay 70% of total income taxes collected. Bottom 50% of wage earners pay less then 3% of total income taxes collected. Source IRS for year 2008, the latest data available.

Now you tell me who is and is not paying their fair share. We need to go back to the days when only land owners could vote, and then only if they contribute more then they receive via government welfare. The idea that those who leach off others should have a vote in how much others should pay is disgusting.

we need to go back to the days when a man could open a store selling tv's and radios and make an honest living for 10 or more years.....

we need to go back to the days when the government did what the people asked, not what the interests asked..

before the military industrial complex and too big to fail....

 

[Charlie Ventura]

we need to go back to the days when a man could open a store selling tv's and radios and make an honest living for 10 or more years.....

we need to go back to the days when the government did what the people asked, not what the interests asked..

before the military industrial complex and too big to fail....

We need to go back to the days when I'm not cheating you and you're not cheating me. We need to go back to the days when I'm not living off of you and you're not living off of me. We need to go back to the days when I'm producing a quality product that you buy and you're producing a quality product that I buy.

 

[UncleBuck]

I'm not a Democrat nor am I a Republican. I am a Constitutional Conservative. I have read Mises, Hayak and Friedman. With that said, can anyone posting in this forum name one single country that has gotten out of debt by raising taxes?

i recall good things happening in this country post wwII when taxes were sky high on the rich.

We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.

the words of a partisan hack.

when i balance my finances, i look at both.

Government produces nothing it just consumes.

false.

tell the city of phoenix that, who owes its existence and expansion to a government project.

The way out of our mess is to cut spending across the board where everyone feels the pain.

spending cuts will be felt by the poorest among us more than by anyone else.

Then abolish our entire current tax system and replace is with a simple sales tax that every citizen pays.

you mean a regressive tax? what shyte.

i could be for a sales tax, but the fact is that someone among the working poor like myself would be taxed at sky high rates as we spend most of what we earn.

 

[JoSixChip]

I'm not a Democrat nor am I a Republican. I am a Constitutional Conservative. I have read Mises, Hayak and Friedman. With that said, can anyone posting in this forum name one single country that has gotten out of debt by raising taxes? We do not have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. Every dollar that is confiscated by the government in the form of taxes, is a dollar taken out of the private sector that could have gone into producing products, sales and jobs. Government produces nothing it just consumes. The way out of our mess is to cut spending across the board where everyone feels the pain. Then abolish our entire current tax system and replace is with a simple sales tax that every citizen pays. The answer is to get the government out of our lives as much as possible.

I mostly avoid the political forum at this web site because I can not tolerate the ignorance of 95% of the post I read. But every now and then I run across a post like this and my hopes are renewed. Very wise words.

 

[Charlie Ventura]

ou mean a regressive tax? what shyte.

i could be for a sales tax, but the fact is that someone among the working poor like myself would be taxed at sky high rates as we spend most of what we earn.

Read up on the F.A.I.R. Tax Uncle Buckie. Poor folks like you would get a monthly check from the government to pay the sales tax on your basic necessities. And I couldn't give a whit about Phoenix. Its hot, full of sand and has Gila Monsters.

 

[Charlie Ventura]

I mostly avoid the political forum at this web site because I can not tolerate the ignorance of 95% of the post I read. But every now and then I run across a post like this and my hopes are renewed. Very wise words.

Thanks Jo ... its nice to see that some folks posting here have a clue about the meaning of liberty. Its time we throw off the yolk of our masters in Washington and move off of the Federal Plantation.

 

[UncleBuck]

ou mean a regressive tax? what shyte.

i could be for a sales tax, but the fact is that someone among the working poor like myself would be taxed at sky high rates as we spend most of what we earn.

Read up on the F.A.I.R. Tax Uncle Buckie. Poor folks like you would get a monthly check from the government to pay the sales tax on your basic necessities. And I couldn't give a whit about Phoenix. Its hot, full of sand and has Gila Monsters.

the monsoons are pretty cool, but the gila monsters? good reason to stay away.

i am pretty indifferent on the fair tax, actually. but how would that get the government out of things if they were there sending a check every month?