The Obama plan vs. the Ryan plan

[Antidisestablishmentarian]

They are probably going so good because we outsource alot of jobs to there and buy their shit. We need more jobs. Period. Sucks our manufacturing isn't what it used to be.

And letting people keep more of their own money can't be a bad thing. Hearing that tax cuts are theft throws me for a loop. Taxes are closer to theft then tax cuts are.

 

[TheDemocrat]

The Tax Policy Center said Ryan’s plan for major tax cuts will decrease tax revenue by $2.9 trillion over the next 10 years. His proposal to make the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy permanent will increase the budget deficit while continuing subsidies for oil companies and agriculture for his home state constituents.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You are not in favor of taking care of our disabled?

(sigh...) Ernst, don't you ever tire of this same, pathetic game? I mean honestly. Your enthusiasm for raising the debt ceiling is disturbing to say the least but certainly not surprising.

 

[Carl Spackler]

They are probably going so good because we outsource alot of jobs to there and buy their shit. We need more jobs. Period. Sucks our manufacturing isn't what it used to be.

And letting people keep more of their own money can't be a bad thing. Hearing that tax cuts are theft throws me for a loop. Taxes are closer to theft then tax cuts are.

This stems from the assumption of those on the left that any money made is first the property of the government.

 

[Serapis]

While the wealthiest 400 families pay an average of ~16-17%. Real fair....

And that is only on NEW income that they actually report and don't shelter.

Spoken like a true communist. Show me in the Constitution where the government is tasked with beefing up the bottom line or guaranteeing employment to anybody.

So the Government is not charged to promote commerce and our general well being? What about the poor sap who lost his job through no fault of his own, should he be kicked out of society and relegated to handouts and begging? I have a hard time understanding why people defend then rich, unless of course they are.... No one is asking them to shoulder an unfair burden, but they should pay the same rate as everyone else, if that means they pay more dollar for dollar, it's because they earned a lot more dollars than you. It isn't a penalty, it's a tax.... a certain percentage.... God commanded a tithe of 10%... do you think he cares whether you made $40k or $4000k? No, it's 10% of the total earnings.... Taxes should be looked at the exact same way...

I wanted to ask how do you cut 25 percent of the income tax and save 2.9 trillion dollars?

You close down medicare and medicaid, you cut funding for education by 25%, you eliminate or drastically reduce Pell Grants and student loans, you eliminate funding for programs that support preventative health education, you raise the SS retirement age and 'borrow an additional 1.5 trillion dollars from the once solvent program, ignoring the 4.5 trillion in old IOU's.... and then, and only then, do you turn around and issue an additional 1.4 trillion in tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans, while you consider removing the tax break the middle class gets on mortgage interest..... that's how they PLAN to do it, according to Mr. Ryan's GOP sponsored plan....

What a great time to be wealthy in America..... the same bastard class that got out of compelled stints in the Army in Viet Nam.... what a nice bunch of patriotic Americans.... riding on the backs of the lower classes ....

 

[Serapis]

Uh... you failed to answer his question..... good dodge.... He isn't enthusiastic about it, he just asked a good question.... do you have an answer?

(sigh...) Ernst, don't you ever tire of this same, pathetic game? I mean honestly. Your enthusiasm for raising the debt ceiling is disturbing to say the least but certainly not surprising.

 

[mame]

"Taxes are theft"

This is a fallacy. Just because you HAVE to pay taxes doesn't mean that it's theft. You get services in return for your money...

Everyone benefits off of infrastructure, food safety regulations, proper policing, firefighting, etc.

Hell, EVERYONE benefits from medicare, medicaid, social security, WIC, etc. because all the money from these benefits eventually ends up back in the free market(meaning profit for the rich). These programs create jobs in the long term while ensuring that even the poor participate in the economy in the short term. This is even further justification that the rich should be taxed at a higher rate than everyone else... A lot of their taxes get used to boost demand for their products... If you took these programs away all you would accomplish is that demand would dwindle away until all of the money is at the top and no one is buying any products... Which then of course leads to further job losses which only worses the situation. As Dan Kone said, extremes dont work.

Try going without paying your water bill... I mean, everyone takes the water that comes out of the faucet for granted(not me man fucking portland's new sewer system cost a shit ton to build... yay taxes!) but you wouldn't like it if that water disappeared because you stopped paying your bills... So you pay your water bill. It's no different with taxes. If everyone stopped paying taxes the roads would degrade and cause damage to your car, the food you eat may be poison causing surprise medical bills... You see where I'm going with this?

Seriously, when I hear the sentiment "Taxes are theft" the first word that comes to mind is "ungrateful"... Because that's all you really are.

 

[mame]

............

 

[mame]

thar she blows

 

[Balzac89]

How can anyone support the Republican proposal its fucking screws the entire Lower class and middle class which is comprised of Republicans

 

[Balzac89]

Who supports cutting education and making senior citizens pay 50 percent more for health coverage.

 

[Balzac89]

Ryans plan is to lower health care costs by killing off senior citizens by making health care unaffordable for them.

I think we found the real death panel here folks.

 

[Serapis]

Mr ryan and Mr Bhoener

Who supports cutting education and making senior citizens pay 50 percent more for health coverage.

 

[ink the world]

As a Marine, I will tell you this. You sir are full of shit and act more entitled than anyone ive ever met. That unemployed Marine did contribute, I guarantee a lot more than your pompous entitled ass ever has or probably will.
You have surpassed Rick White on the idiot meter, congrats dude thats an accomplishment.

You ignorant uninformed POS. I served 4 years in the USAF. My three siblings and myself grew up dirt poor, our parents had too much self respect to take handouts from the government or anyone else. We learned the value of hard work and three of us put our selves through collage, I myself did not graduate until I was 40. But all four of us worked our way to a decent living. We take pride in our accomplishments, something a whole generation in this country has been denied. And it is people like you that keep the poor down by giving them just enough to survive with no reason to improve their standing in life. They then pass that on to their children, and 99% of them end up just like their parents. The good news for you is they will always vote to take more money from someone else, meaning more liberal voters, leading to more poor. It's a vicious cycle, but it is obviously something you and your liberal buddies on this forum and in this country clearly prefer.

And ya, just because you served does not entitle you to lifetime of privilege, unless you were disabled. Millions upon millions of Americans have served without expecting to be carried the rest of their lives. What make you think your so special? You don't contribute, you shouldn't be allowed to vote, PERIOD. And yes that include the elderly, the retarded, the homeless, the illegal aliens and anybody else that isn't shouldering their share of the load.

Oh, and I am an active member of the TEA Party.[/QUOTE]


Ignorant huh flyboy? At least I can read a sentence and comprehend it. Typical teabagger, spouting off rhetoric without any factual base.No wonder you didnt finish school until middle age.
I am not unemployed, in fact flyboy I own a business. How retarded of you to assume that I'm poor. Id be willing to bet I make more on a good Friday than you bank in a week ( I make $110 an hour jackass) Hows that for a contribution ?

Your assumption that because Im left of your ass backwards "politics" makes me "liberal" or "poor" is indicative of the semi retarded political affiliation that you have......c'mon say it with me:
"Keep the governments hands off my medicare"


Ill go with you about the contribution thing for voting if we can have an intelligence and civics test as well. That would be the death of the Teabaggers right there.

 

[JoSixChip]

Ignorant huh flyboy? At least I can read a sentence and comprehend it.

Really? "you" was a reference to the straw man you put up.

That would be the death of the Teabaggers right there.

You liberals and your gay slurs, where's the tolerance?

 

[londonfog]

JoSixChip please don't let anyone know you served in the USAF..you are a disgrace...

 

[NoDrama]

"Taxes are theft"


Seriously, when I hear the sentiment "Taxes are theft" the first word that comes to mind is "ungrateful"... Because that's all you really are.

That isn't what people say. They say "Federal INCOME taxes are theft" Which they are.

Money ending up back in the free market does not grow the market. Take a dollar out of your right pocket and place it into your left pocket. Do you have any more money? Government skims a little off the top though to facilitate the changing of pockets.

Roads are payed by a tax on gasoline and motor vehicles, not income. Police and fire and 70% of education are paid for by your Property taxes, not income. Infrastructure spending accounts for less 5% of the Federal budget. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.cfm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18098378/ns/business-answer_desk/

Federal Income tax pays for the interest on the treasuries, the $1 trillion left over is then used to pay for everything else, which it falls far short of . That is why we have to borrow $2 trillion each year just to run things. The borrowed money pays for all those entitlements. We are in check kiting mode right now.

 

[londonfog]

I say most of our federal income tax goes to Defense/Military

 

[mame]

That isn't what people say. They say "Federal INCOME taxes are theft" Which they are.

Money ending up back in the free market does not grow the market. Take a dollar out of your right pocket and place it into your left pocket. Do you have any more money? Government skims a little off the top though to facilitate the changing of pockets.

Roads are payed by a tax on gasoline and motor vehicles, not income. Police and fire and 70% of education are paid for by your Property taxes, not income. Infrastructure spending accounts for less 5% of the Federal budget. http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.cfm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18098378/ns/business-answer_desk/

Federal Income tax pays for the interest on the treasuries, the $1 trillion left over is then used to pay for everything else, which it falls far short of . That is why we have to borrow $2 trillion each year just to run things. The borrowed money pays for all those entitlements. We are in check kiting mode right now.

This just simply is not always true:

It is difficult to get solid evidence on the economy's response to changes in government spending. Direct reporting measures—such as those employed by Recovery.gov, the U.S. government's website for tracking stimulus spending—capture the direct and observable effects of government spending on economic activity. These measures can be helpful, but they fail to account for the indirect, less-easily observable effects of government spending. To capture the big-picture effect of government spending, economists turn to the spending multiplier.
The multiplier effect or spending multiplier refers to the idea that an initial amount of government spending leads to a change in the activity of the larger economy. In other words, an initial change in the total demand for goods and services (what economists term aggregate demand) causes a change in total output for the economy that is a multiple of the initial change. For example, if the government spends one dollar and, as a result of this spending, the economy (as expressed by the Gross Domestic Product, or GDP) grows by $2, the spending multiplier is 2. If the economy grows by $1.50, the spending multiplier is 1.5. However, if the economy only grows by 50 cents (a loss from the original $1 spent), the spending multiplier is 0.5.

Simple Keynesian macroeconomics assumes that in times of high unemployment, the government is better than the private market at guiding idle resources to create economic output. Government spending puts unemployed labor and capital to work at zero social cost.7 When the government puts this previously unemployed labor and capital to work, the mobilized labor and capital produce added goods and services that private sector was unable to create.

A New Classical understanding of the multiplier starts with the idea that government spending has some social cost (i.e. a rise in government spending requires a fall in other parts of GDP, such as consumption and investment.) As such, the value of the public projects (bridge construction or roads) needs to justify that social cost. This view doesn't assume that an increase in consumption at any cost is a good thing: if the multiplier's value is less than 1, then government spending has crowded out the private investment and spending that would have otherwise happened.

source
So basically, your statement depends entirely on what kind of government spending is taking place. Most government spending, like medicare, WIC, and other programs directly targeting the lowest income groups consistently post multiplers above $1 - meaning that they do, in fact, boost the economy and create wealth.

And here is a study that shows just this(.pdf):

the government spending multiplier can be very large...

Measures designed to increase aggregate demand are particularly powerful during such episodes.

"episodes" refers to economic downturn. The study shows some government spending at $.80 (which is essentially where your point is valid) but it also shows government spending from 1.2-1.5+(which proves that government can grow the economy).

 

[Dan Kone]

"Taxes are theft"

This is a fallacy. Just because you HAVE to pay taxes doesn't mean that it's theft. You get services in return for your money...

Ironically conservative states overall actually get a bigger return than what they pay on taxes while liberal states get less. And yet conservatives are the one's who complain about getting "robbed". Just shows the depth of their ignorance.

It's hilarious to hear idiots like Sarah Palin talking about the government stealing their money when Alaska gets $1.82 for every $1 they pay in taxes. Don't like being robbed of your tax dollars? Then how about these conservative states give back all the money being spent on them. In Cali we only get $0.78 back per dollar spent, do you hear us complaining? No.

The states getting the best returns are all red states.