give us more stimuli, right mame?

[Dan Kone]

We are 2 to 4 trillion annual deficit as far as the eyes can see. And you still preaching more. Wow, amazing.

That implies we are on pace to have that deficit every year consistently. The high deficit is mostly due to the economic downturn, wars, and tax cuts. Those are hopefully temporary.

Yes, more is good. Not more permanently, more until we get rid of the unemployment problem. If we keep cutting spending it will result in a double dip recession, with that we will take in less revenue making the deficit worse. It's better to just deficit spend now, so we can put people back to work which will increase revenue.

Either way we will get a larger deficit so we might as well spend now to put people back to work. It's foolish to take the opinion that will result in both less revenue and less jobs. That's a lose lose.

Can you please give us an example of where this type of debt has led to prosperity?

The great depression. Both new deal spending and ww2 spending resulted in economic recovery. The new deal spending recovery only reversed itself when we cut spending.

What we really need is another new deal that revolves around energy and commerce modernization. If we do that it'll help the economy in both the short and long term. If we don't do that, we are fucked both short and long term.

 

[mame]

we need debt relief too, badly:

 

[jeff f]

Uhm, FDR and the great society, WW2, etc ran the deficit over 120% of GDP and the result was the 50's and 60's. The most prosperous time in America. Next?

Ahhhhhh pardon me, I am just a student here, the depression lasted forclose to 15 years. Fdr didn't get us out of shit. He merely extended it. Man you have good programmer's over at the keynsian institution of idiots

 

[jeff f]

we need debt relief too, badly:

View attachment 1630488

so you and dan are saying what we really need is growth? I agree with that 100 percent. Not growth in govt is where we part ways. If the current gruop in the WH get their way, they will confiscateconfiscate every bit of growth we get.

Grow the economy, not govt programs. That only happens when govt allows businesses to prosper.

Paying off public sector unions doesn't count as growth fellas.

 

[mame]

Ahhhhhh pardon me, I am just a student here, the depression lasted forclose to 15 years. Fdr didn't get us out of shit. He merely extended it. Man you have good programmer's over at the keynsian institution of idiots

Except that you offer no evidence to "prove" your statement as fact. I've gone through extensive measures on these boards (months ago) quashing this bit of conservative revisionism.

I believe the argument went something like this; If FDR slowed the recovery (as you claim) can you explain how market forces alone can get unemployment from nearly 24% to just over 14% from the time FDR went into office until right before WW2? Unemployment made it to ~14% before going up to ~19% in 1937 before going back down to 14% before WW2 - if the Fed didn't tighten and congress didn't begin Austerity measures so early how low could unemployment have been without the 1937 episode?

You can't. This is the fastest period of unemployment reduction in history. As we all agree, full employment is the key to economic growth.

so you and dan are saying what we really need is growth? I agree with that 100 percent. Not growth in govt is where we part ways. If the current gruop in the WH get their way, they will confiscateconfiscate every bit of growth we get.

Grow the economy, not govt programs. That only happens when govt allows businesses to prosper.

Paying off public sector unions doesn't count as growth fellas.

Where is this unprecedented growth of government you always speak of? Relative to GDP, much of the "increase in size of government" conservatives always point to isn't government expansion at all. Recession hit, unemployment and other parts of the social safety net went into action while at the same time revenue dropped. The result is that in terms of GDP government went from just under 20% of GDP to just under 24% so there is no real increase in the "size" of government like you think - almost all of the difference between now and prior to 08 is related directly to the recession.

 

[jeff f]

15 years in depression, 2 trillion a year deficit, how much more you want krugman?

 

[Dan Kone]

so you and dan are saying what we really need is growth? I agree with that 100 percent. Not growth in govt is where we part ways. If the current gruop in the WH get their way, they will confiscateconfiscate every bit of growth we get.

Grow the economy, not govt programs. That only happens when govt allows businesses to prosper.

Paying off public sector unions doesn't count as growth fellas.

Government programs can most definitely lead to private sector growth. Tell me how our economy would be doing without our national highway system.

What we need is a renewable energy equivalent to the national highway system to prepare us for the future. China is doing it and unless we do the same we will fall behind them. It would create a lot of temporary jobs which would stimulate marketplace spending and stop foreclosures and produce a competitive environment for private businesses for the future.

 

[Dan Kone]

15 years in depression, 2 trillion a year deficit, how much more you want krugman?

What you're not getting is that this was prolonged by spending cuts. The government spending programs were working. The economy was on pace to recover until we started cutting these programs.

You can't have a sound argument if you're going to ignore key parts of the equation.

That 15 years you're talking about is only proof that cutting spending when trying to pull out of a recession is a bad idea.

 

[mame]

What we need is a renewable energy equivalent to the national highway system to prepare us for the future. China is doing it and unless we do the same we will fall behind them. It would create a lot of temporary jobs which would stimulate marketplace spending and stop foreclosures and produce a competitive environment for private businesses for the future.

That's the way to sell it! You're a genius just tell the righties we need sun panels cuz we're trying to beat China. It'll be the cold war all over again and they'll love it lol.

15 years in depression, 2 trillion a year deficit, how much more you want krugman?

They called them "Hoovervilles" did they not? FDR did a pretty good job, especially considering he was in unmarked territory, there had never been that kind of government spending ever before... It was so successful that all(most? can't think of any off the top of my head) advanced nations use a keynesian/new classical philosophy in their policymaking.

The deficit has been larger, relative to the size of the economy before. We're fine.

Krugman isn't alone in his analysis, the U.S. needs stimulus. If you think you know so much about economics than why aren't presidents and prime ministers asking you for advice? They've asked Krugman on numerous occasions; but no, you know better... right?

 

[jeff f]

YYou already know that companies are sitting on trillions. The way to unleash it is to tell them it's OK to make a profit. Telling them they are evil if they make money is not going to do it.

It really is that simple. Growth doesn't happen at the point of a gun.

 

[mame]

YYou already know that companies are sitting on trillions. The way to unleash it is to tell them it's OK to make a profit. Telling them they are evil if they make money is not going to do it.

It really is that simple. Growth doesn't happen at the point of a gun.

Who is telling businesses that they're evil? We simply ask that there is a fair set of rules for them to play by.

BTW, the money making machines you're referring to care about one thing - making money. If demand was favorable, they'd be investing and hiring - but it's not. Demand is too low and businesses have a ton of excess capacity as a result. The way to make them invest is simply to fill that excess capacity.. Without stimulus in a liquidity trap, demand will only continue to worsen until adequate stimulus has been enacted.

One way to do this for example, is to help rid Americans of their enormous debt load. The faster American consumers are clear of debt - the faster they'll begin spending again. This would speed growth but the recovery would still be slow. Add in what Dan was saying, a "shovel ready" (lol OBAMA again) equivelent to the highway project for renewable energy would quicken the pace by creating short term jobs to feed into demand.

Obama and Biden favor high speed rail, which would be pretty sweet IMO as one of many engines (lol) toward a legitimate recovery... Here's a tidbit, construction and manufactoring have almost always been part of economic recovery from recession. The weakening of the USD has helped our manufactoring trade balance(the stengthening U.S. car industry is helping too btw... yay bailouts[which were loans btw]!) all we need now is stimulus. Once people can buy things again(especially if housing prices keep depressing as consumers get out of debt), things will be made.

 

[Dan Kone]

YYou already know that companies are sitting on trillions. The way to unleash it is to tell them it's OK to make a profit. Telling them they are evil if they make money is not going to do it.

It really is that simple. Growth doesn't happen at the point of a gun.

Sure it does. Look at America in 1930 and then look at it in 1960. That happened because of taxing the rich and using it to build a modern infrastructure that created long term economic stimulation which allowed American companies to prosper. The strongest economy in our countries history was enabled by government spending.

 

[jeff f]

Who is telling businesses that they're evil? We simply ask that there is a fair set of rules for them to play by.

BTW, the money making machines you're referring to care about one thing - making money. If demand was favorable, they'd be investing and hiring - but it's not. Demand is too low and businesses have a ton of excess capacity as a result. The way to make them invest is simply to fill that excess capacity.. Without stimulus in a liquidity trap, demand will only continue to worsen until adequate stimulus has been enacted.

One way to do this for example, is to help rid Americans of their enormous debt load. The faster American consumers are clear of debt - the faster they'll begin spending again. This would speed growth but the recovery would still be slow. Add in what Dan was saying, a "shovel ready" (lol OBAMA again) equivelent to the highway project for renewable energy would quicken the pace by creating short term jobs to feed into demand.

Obama and Biden favor high speed rail, which would be pretty sweet IMO as one of many engines (lol) toward a legitimate recovery... Here's a tidbit, construction and manufactoring have almost always been part of economic recovery from recession. The weakening of the USD has helped our manufactoring trade balance(the stengthening U.S. car industry is helping too btw... yay bailouts[which were loans btw]!) all we need now is stimulus. Once people can buy things again(especially if housing prices keep depressing as consumers get out of debt), things will be made.

High speed rail? The more the planners fail, the more the planners plan.

High speed rail with zero demand equals massive boondoggle.

You guys just can't get over how smart you are. Makes us laugh.

 

[beardo]

Why don't we use Gold and Silver?

 

[beardo]

High speed rail? The more the planners fail, the more the planners plan.

High speed rail with zero demand equals massive boondoggle.

You guys just can't get over how smart you are. Makes us laugh.

Have you seen the ticket pieces for our so called 'high speed' Rail?

 

[jeff f]

Have you seen the ticket pieces for our so called 'high speed' Rail?

What american in their right mind is going to use high speed rail regularly enough to make it profitable? These guys are pretty easy to shake out of the trees. Keep them talking long enough and they always reveal themselves. Haha.

Joe Biden recommends it it's gotta be good.

 

[Dan Kone]

High speed rail? The more the planners fail, the more the planners plan.

High speed rail with zero demand equals massive boondoggle.

You guys just can't get over how smart you are. Makes us laugh.

The internet and personal computer demands were zero when the government decided investing in it. How's that market doing? I guess if there is no demand for something at the time that means there will be no demand ever. Personally, I know a lot of people who wouldn't mind not sitting in traffic all day.

If you're point is that America is incapable of building trains, GFTO. I'm pretty sure it's been established that it's possible.

 

[Dan Kone]

Have you seen the ticket pieces for our so called 'high speed' Rail?

lol. I love how you it's "so called 'high speed fail'" as if it's suspect if such a thing is really possible.

well done.

 

[UncleBuck]

The internet and personal computer demands were zero when the government decided investing in it. How's that market doing? I guess if there is no demand for something at the time that means there will be no demand ever. Personally, I know a lot of people who wouldn't mind not sitting in traffic all day.

If you're point is that America is incapable of building trains, GFTO. I'm pretty sure it's been established that it's possible.

i own a car but take the light rail whenever possible because....it is cheaper!

i would take it down to cali instead of driving if it were ever constructed.

i'm pretty sure a lot of floridians wouldn't mind it either, i hear traffic is hell all over that state.

 

[NoDrama]

Don't worry guys, the next QE will be much larger, but it will have the exact same effect, kick the can down the road a bit and make the problem even worse. The middle class will get jack squat and the rich will get richer. You can bet that Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan will continue to never have a single day in which they lose money on their bets.

there is no liquidity trap, there is so much liquidity it is oozing out all over the place, especially in the equities and commodities arenas.

They will continue pissing down our backs and telling us it is raining.