give us more stimuli, right mame?

[NoDrama]

Government should fund research into teleportation. Can you imagine traveling anywhere in the world at the speed of light? Imagine how different the world would be then.

 

[Dan Kone]

nope, thats not why America was the Greatest economic power, go back and read the post again, I explain it all really simple like.

Yeah, I read it. According to you the economy was strong because of the American spirit and had nothing to do with fiscal policy. Good stuff, but how about we stick with rational explanations?

Its great you can find people to make solar panels and trains, but if no one can afford to buy the panels or ride the train its really just a futile situation and won't really help in the long run

We can make it affordable with government subsidies! We can get rid of the corporate welfare we pay out to multinational energy companies that pay no taxes and keep their money off shore and use it to subsidies trains and solar panels.

So the plan so far -

1) we end the wars and tax cuts for the rich, use that money to build solar panels and trains

2) cut off corporate welfare to multinational energy corporations and use that money to subsidies the purchase of train passes and solar panels.

The result

short term - immediate economic stimulus from all the jobs created by building the solar panels and trains.
long term - reduced energy costs for people who can then afford to spend more money in the market places, less traffic on the roads for people who choose to buy cars, more efficient travel for people who use the trains, and lowered costs of doing business for corporations.

That's what I call winning.

How is that a bad plan?

 

[NoDrama]

Yeah, I read it. According to you the economy was strong because of the American spirit and had nothing to do with fiscal policy. Good stuff, but how about we stick with rational explanations?

Ok your just being petty now. You know my assertion is correct and you would just rather not discuss it, I completely understand.

We can make it affordable with government subsidies! We can get rid of the corporate welfare we pay out to multinational energy companies that pay no taxes and keep their money off shore and use it to subsidies trains and solar panels.

So the plan so far -

1) we end the wars and tax cuts for the rich, use that money to build solar panels and trains

2) cut off corporate welfare to multinational energy corporations and use that money to subsidies the purchase of train passes and solar panels.

The result

short term - immediate economic stimulus from all the jobs created by building the solar panels and trains.
long term - reduced energy costs for people who can then afford to spend more money in the market places, less traffic on the roads for people who choose to buy cars, more efficient travel for people who use the trains, and lowered costs of doing business for corporations.

That's what I call winning.

How is that a bad plan?

You forgot a few things, The companies that are capable of producing super trains and solar panels are the very same big companies who pay no taxes and get kickbacks ( GE anyone?) Not everyone has the resources and knowhow to just start a train factory and overnight start producing trains. Far As I know EMD(Electromotive) and GE are the only Companies that would even be able to take such a project on. Lets also not forget that there needs to be rail in place for all of this too, it would almost have to be a on a raised platform so people wouldn't get stuck across the tracks and the train kills all 1,000 passengers and a grandma in her Ford Crown Victoria. No way you could share the track with the current freight trains, not unless you dropped the speed to the same speeds as they run now, which really wouldn't help anything at all. This isn't as simple as "build trains" at all.

You know how they get money for government subsidies? They tax the people for it. What sense does it make to tax everyone just a little bit more than what it would take to purchase the shit yourself? You can't create a subsidy that 100% of the population will be forced to take part in and expect to break even unless you tax the people more than it actually costs, since you now have to pay for bureaucrats also. That is just more deficit spending. Government should butt out of such affairs and let the people decide in which direction to go in. They tried all this train shit before you know, amtrak, blueline etc etc

Im standing right next to you when it comes to ending corporate welfare, ending the wars and coming up with a smart plan to use the money for (Pay off debts?)

 

[Dan Kone]

You forgot a few things, The companies that are capable of producing super trains and solar panels are the very same big companies who pay no taxes and get kickbacks ( GE anyone?) Not everyone has the resources and knowhow to just start a train factory and overnight start producing trains. Far As I know EMD(Electromotive) and GE are the only Companies that would even be able to take such a project on.

If GM could retool factories to produce sherman tanks, I'm pretty sure they could do the same with trains. There are hundreds of companies that produce solar panels.

The idea that only two countries in the country capable of making a train or solar panel is just lol.

Lets also not forget that there needs to be rail in place for all of this too, it would almost have to be a on a raised platform so people wouldn't get stuck across the tracks and the train kills all 1,000 passengers and a grandma in her Ford Crown Victoria. No way you could share the track with the current freight trains, not unless you dropped the speed to the same speeds as they run now, which really wouldn't help anything at all. This isn't as simple as "build trains" at all.

ok. so it's not easy, but lets not pretend it's impossible. Europe and Japan do it.

You know how they get money for government subsidies? They tax the people for it. What sense does it make to tax everyone just a little bit more than what it would take to purchase the shit yourself? You can't create a subsidy that 100% of the population will be forced to take part in and expect to break even unless you tax the people more than it actually costs, since you now have to pay for bureaucrats also. That is just more deficit spending.

What part of "I'm not against government spending it's way out of a recession" don't you understand?

Also, I gave a way to pay for it. End the tax cuts for the wealthy and end the wars.

Government should butt out of such affairs and let the people decide in which direction to go in. They tried all this train shit before you know, amtrak, blueline etc etc

I disagree. If the government would have butted out of people's affairs in the 1950's we wouldn't have the national highway system, the internet, or PC's.

Sometimes the government needs to have a plan for the big picture. The free market gives people what they want, not what they need. The government gave us highways, the free market gives us boner pills.

I

m standing right next to you when it comes to ending corporate welfare, ending the wars and coming up with a smart plan to use the money for (Pay off debts?)

I understand you except it as fact without question that the most important thing we need to do right now is pay off the debt, but you're wrong. The most important thing we can do is get people back to work and IMO the best way to do that is invest a 21st century infrastructure.

 

[sync0s]

I disagree. If the government would have butted out of people's affairs in the 1950's we wouldn't have the national highway system, the internet, or PC's.

Sometimes the government needs to have a plan for the big picture. The free market gives people what they want, not what they need. The government gave us highways, the free market gives us boner pills.

I'm sure Bill Gates, as long as thousands of other inventors, would absolutely resent you for that statement.

The Lincoln Highway was the first road across the United States of America.[1]
Conceived and promoted by entrepreneur Carl G. Fisher, the Lincoln Highway spanned coast-to-coast from Times Square in New York City to Lincoln Park in San Francisco, originally through 13 states: New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, and California. In 1915, the "Colorado Loop" was removed, and in 1928, a realignment relocated the Lincoln Highway through the northern tip of West Virginia. Thus, there are a total of 14 states, 128 counties, and over 700 cities, towns and villages through which the highway passed at some time in its history.

Highways in America were the idea of an entrepreneur.

The Interstate Highway System had been lobbied for by major U.S. automobile manufacturers and championed by President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was influenced by his experiences as a young Army officer crossing the country in the 1919 Army Convoy on the Lincoln Highway, the first road across America.

Lobbied by US car manufacturers.

The invention of the microprocessor, a machine which combines the equivalent of thousands of transistors on a single, tiny silicon chip, was developed by Ted Hoff at Intel Corporation in the Santa Clara Valley south of San Francisco, California, an area that was destined to become known to the world as Silicon Valley because of the microprocessor and computer industry that grew up there. Because a CPU calculates, performs logical operations, contains operating instructions, and manages data flows, the potential existed for developing a separate system that could function as a complete microcomputer.

The first such desktop-size system specifically designed for personal use appeared in 1974; it was offered by Micro Instrumentation Telemetry Systems (MITS). The owners of the system were then encouraged by the editor of a popular technology magazine to create and sell a mail-order computer kit through the magazine. The computer, which was called Altair, retailed for slightly less than $400.

Okay, so PC's aren't a product of the government.

Initial creation
The Internet as we know it today first started being developed in the late 1960's.
In the summer of 1968, the Network Working Group (NWG) held its first meeting chaired by Elmer Shapiro with the Stanford Research Institute (SRI) with attendees: Steve Carr, Steve Crocker, Jeff Rulifson, and Ron Stoughton. In the meeting the group discussed solving issues related to getting hosts to communicate with each other.
In December 1968, Elmer Shapiro with SRI released a report "A Study of Computer Network Design Parameters." Based on this work and earlier work done by Paul Baran, Thomas Marill and others; Lawrence Roberts and Barry Wessler helped to create the final version of the Interface Message Processor (IMP) specifications. Bolt Beranek and Newman, Inc. (BBN) was later awarded the contract to design and build the IMP sub network.
Introduction of the Internet to the general public
UCLA puts out a press release introducing the public to the Internet on July 3, 1969.

Credit goes to Stanford as well as a few other organizations mentioned, all private (except UCLA, all they did was announce it)



Imagine if you were an inventor of a great life changing product, and you saw somebody posting on forums claiming the government is to producer of this product. How disgraceful would that be? Merely to prove your point on government over involvement. Give credit where credit is really due, stop patting the backs of politicians with big mouths and even bigger pockets.

 

[Dan Kone]

I'm sure Bill Gates, as long as thousands of other inventors, would absolutely resent you for that statement.

I think Bill Gates would 100% agree with me. lol @ Bill Gates inventing anything.

Highways in America were the idea of an entrepreneur.

Really? The free market built the national highway system. Nice revisionist history.

Lobbied by US car manufacturers.

actually the defense department.

Okay, so PC's aren't a product of the government.]Credit goes to Stanford as well as a few other organizations mentioned, all private (except UCLA, all they did was announce it)

And the entire market was artificially funded by the government for about 40 years. I don't know about about you, but I'm pretty happy about the government steping in and creating that market rather than waiting around for 40 years for the free market to catch up.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." — Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM

I noticed you left out the internet. Of course you know that was a government sponsored program. Maybe we would be better off if government didn't intrude into our affairs and the internet didn't exist?

Imagine if you were an inventor of a great life changing product, and you saw somebody posting on forums claiming the government is to producer of this product.How disgraceful would that be? Merely to prove your point on government over involvement. Give credit where credit is really due, stop patting the backs of politicians with big mouths and even bigger pockets.

lol. My point was that the government supported markets in places where the free market failed for the best interests of the people, not that the government invented computers. If you read that this way, it was because you wanted to.

Computers would be decades behind where they are now if the government didn't buy the computers that were being developed. Yes, that is something entirely different than saying the government invented your pc.

If it weren't for the government's involvement, those people would have had no place to sell the computers they were developing. We'd probably all be on commodore 64's right now.

I seriously doubt the internet would even exist if it weren't for government involvement. You would probably be able to buy stuff from companies through your computers over the phone lines, but things like this message board wouldn't be here.

As far as the national highway system, it exists because of Eisenhower and congress. He taxed the shit out of the wealthy and used the money to build it. It wasn't the invisible hand of the free market building it like you delude yourself into thinking.

Anyone can have an idea. Having an idea and having the money make it reality are two different things. Sometimes the government needs to finance things that are in our best interests.

 

[sync0s]

You know nothing of the world of computers. If you do explain how hackers are more innovative than corporations and government and why the latter fails to stop th em. Furthermore explain why private opensurce endeavors like Firefox exist and thrive over big market.

How are you so good at denying quoted and cited historical fact? Its ridiculous I even waste my time responding to you. You are like Thomas Edison taking on Tesla in the DC vs. AC war. You argue using ignorance and propaganda rhetoric just like Edison. Be proud.

Bill gates was the genius behind software at a time that no one believed in anything but hardware. An operating system developer is no different from an inventor

The only thing internet owes to government was the rfc protocol sets. Additionally, I did mention internet above thaat just shows you don't read

 

[NoDrama]

Thomas Watson did not say " I think there is a world market for maybe five computers", but if he did, at that time it was probably correct. Computers in the 50's (Watson died in '56) were HUGE BEHEMOTHS that took up multiple rooms and cost millions of dollars. You could rent one of the computers for $18,000 a month in '55, which is the equivalent of $144,500 now. Know many people that can afford that kind of rent?

Bill gates did not invent software, he got his start by buying a program from IBM called QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) Gates had help tweaking the software and when it was done he called it DOS, the beginning of the revolution!! Gates was a smart kid, entrepreneur at its finest.

 

[jeff f]

You guys are lying! The government did everything good. They are responsible for all good things and entrepreneurs are the devil and should be killed.

All hail the mighty government!

 

[ink the world]

You guys are lying! The government did everything good. They are responsible for all good things and entrepreneurs are the devil and should be killed.

All hail the mighty government!

Thats my problem with you Jeff, extremism.

No one said the government is the answer to all problems, but they are the answer to some. In the same respect the free market isnt the answer to all problems, but it is the answer to some.
The truth and best way are usually found in the middle, not on either extreme.

 

[Dan Kone]

You know nothing of the world of computers. If you do explain how hackers are more innovative than corporations and government and why the latter fails to stop th em. Furthermore explain why private opensurce endeavors like Firefox exist and thrive over big market.

Waaaay missing the point. The market for computers didn't exist until the government started supporting it.

My point was that we don't necessarily need to wait for a free market solution for everything we are going to need in the future. In some cases we can have government support that market until the free market catches up. Just like we did with computers.

How are you so good at denying quoted and cited historical fact? Its ridiculous I even waste my time responding to you. You are like Thomas Edison taking on Tesla in the DC vs. AC war. You argue using ignorance and propaganda rhetoric just like Edison. Be proud.

Ummmm, no. You decided that I said the government invented the personal computer. However I did not say that. I said the government supported the market for computers for decades while the technology developed into something that could be sold in the marketplace.

But you keep ignoring all that and are insisting I said the government invented the personal computer. I did not say that. You can continue pretending that's what I was saying if you like, but I still didn't say that.

Bill gates was the genius behind software at a time that no one believed in anything but hardware. An operating system developer is no different from an inventor

lol @ Bill Gates inventing an operating system. For someone who just made the claim that I know nothing about computers you sure don't know shit yourself. Bill Gates didn't write DOS, he bought it. He didn't write windows, he stole it from apple who stole it from Xerox.

The people who actually invented those OS's are nameless. The inventor of the windows style OS's never got a penny for his invention, it was given free to Steve Jobs who allowed Bill Gates to steal it from him. DOS was purchased for $50k cash. Neither inventors ever got a penny in royalties nor did they ever get credit for their inventions.

Look into it, you'll find that I'm right.

The only thing internet owes to government was the rfc protocol sets.

So DARPA was make believe?

 

[Dan Kone]

Thomas Watson did not say " I think there is a world market for maybe five computers", but if he did, at that time it was probably correct.

It's probably the most famous quote about PC's of all time.

Computers in the 50's (Watson died in '56) were HUGE BEHEMOTHS that took up multiple rooms and cost millions of dollars. You could rent one of the computers for $18,000 a month in '55, which is the equivalent of $144,500 now. Know many people that can afford that kind of rent?

Nope. Thank god the government could support the market until they developed into something useful and affordable.

You do realize that you're arguing against your own point now right?

You were trying to make the point that we can't subsidize green technology because there isn't sufficient demand in the market, now you're giving examples of technology we subsidized because there wasn't sufficient demand in the market. So thanks I guess.

 

[sync0s]

The people who actually invented those OS's are nameless. The inventor of the windows style OS's never got a penny for his invention, it was given free to Steve Jobs who allowed Bill Gates to steal it from him. DOS was purchased for $50k cash. Neither inventors ever got a penny in royalties nor did they ever get credit for their inventions.

Proof that you skim things on Wikipedia and selectively choose what you want to validate your point:

IBM representative Jack Sams mentioned the licensing difficulties during a subsequent meeting with Gates and told him to get an acceptable operating system. A few weeks later Gates proposed using 86-DOS (QDOS), an operating system similar to CP/M that Tim Paterson of Seattle Computer Products (SCP) had made for hardware similar to the PC. Microsoft made a deal with SCP to become the exclusive licensing agent, and later the full owner, of 86-DOS. After adapting the operating system for the PC, Microsoft delivered it to IBM as PC-DOS in exchange for a one-time fee of $50,000.

He didn't build DOS, yes, but he was behind NT as well as this:

After reading the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics that demonstrated the Altair 8800, Gates contacted Micro Instrumentation and Telemetry Systems (MITS), the creators of the new microcomputer, to inform them that he and others were working on a BASIC interpreter for the platform.[30] In reality, Gates and Allen did not have an Altair and had not written code for it; they merely wanted to gauge MITS's interest. MITS president Ed Roberts agreed to meet them for a demo, and over the course of a few weeks they developed an Altair emulator that ran on a minicomputer, and then the BASIC interpreter. The demonstration, held at MITS's offices in Albuquerque, was a success and resulted in a deal with MITS to distribute the interpreter as Altair BASIC. Paul Allen was hired into MITS,[31] and Gates took a leave of absence from Harvard to work with Allen at MITS in Albuquerque in November 1975. They named their partnership "Micro-Soft" and had their first office located in Albuquerque.[31] Within a year, the hyphen was dropped, and on November 26, 1976, the trade name "Microsoft" was registered with the Office of the Secretary of the State of New Mexico.[31] Gates never returned to Harvard to complete his studies.

 

[Dan Kone]

First off, I have no use for your wikipedia history lessons. If I want to know something from there, I'll look it up myself.

qdos was just dos with minor modifications. Giving Bill Gates credit for writing it would be like if you took the Mona Lisa, painted a flower in the corner and then took credit for the whole painting.

And no, NT is a windows OS. Bill Gates stole windows from Apple who stole it from Xerox.

Bill Gates never invented a god damn thing. He just bought and stole other people's work. He gets full credit for being a brilliant businessman but the idea he was authoring software himself is laughable.

You could say Bill Gates "discovered" DOS and windows, but only in the same way we "discovered" America when it already had a population living here.

What is your point? You're trying to prove me wrong on something I never said (and failing at it btw).