Free will vs Predestination
- Thread starter MediMary
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MediMary
Well-Known Member
Ill kick us off with some biblical points supporting predestination
Biblical support of predestinationSome Biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in predestination are below. Note that most of these verses do not distinguish between the conditional election (Arminian) and unconditional election (Calvinist), but are simply evidence of some type of election.
"For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14, KJV)
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5 NIV)
"As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven." (Mark 4:10-12, NASB)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,..." (Eph. 1:3-5, NASB)
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30, NASB)
"... but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; ..." (1Co. 2:7, NASB)
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Act. 4:27-28, NASB)
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psa. 139:16, NASB)
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:15-18, NIV)
"The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Exodus 4:21, NIV)
"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom. 9:22-24, NIV)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10, NKJ)
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48, ESV)
Biblical support of predestinationSome Biblical verses often used as sources for Christian beliefs in predestination are below. Note that most of these verses do not distinguish between the conditional election (Arminian) and unconditional election (Calvinist), but are simply evidence of some type of election.
"For many are called, but few [are] chosen." (Matthew 22:14, KJV)
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5 NIV)
"As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven." (Mark 4:10-12, NASB)
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,..." (Eph. 1:3-5, NASB)
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30, NASB)
"... but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; ..." (1Co. 2:7, NASB)
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." (Act. 4:27-28, NASB)
Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them. (Psa. 139:16, NASB)
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9:15-18, NIV)
"The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go." (Exodus 4:21, NIV)
"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" (Rom. 9:22-24, NIV)
"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:8-10, NKJ)
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48, ESV)
cannabisguru
Well-Known Member
From the beginning of time, thinkers have puzzled over the paradox of fate vs. free will, or predestination vs. free choice. In theological terms, this leads to the struggle between Calvinism and Arminianism <-- (spell check please?).
Free Will.. 'Free Will' is exactly what it says... its the 'Free Will' of each person. Each soul has 'Free Will' to choose what religion to practice/study etc...; I'm a Catholic and I was Christened just like (Edit: Most other) Catholics. It's what I've been raised with and its what I personally believe in.
That's as far as I want to go into this subject at the current time..
What are your thoughts? I'm curious.
peace.
Free Will.. 'Free Will' is exactly what it says... its the 'Free Will' of each person. Each soul has 'Free Will' to choose what religion to practice/study etc...; I'm a Catholic and I was Christened just like (Edit: Most other) Catholics. It's what I've been raised with and its what I personally believe in.
That's as far as I want to go into this subject at the current time..
What are your thoughts? I'm curious.
peace.
420God
Well-Known Member
It's just a book written by man.
0011StealTH
Active Member
its also been manipulated. by MAN (kings) or so.Any thoughts?
All you christians out there... Do YOU think the Bible is the perfect word of God.. OR do You think God inspired the bible, but it was written by man and therefor can contain errors??
don't get me wrong the Bible holds alot of wisdom but it has the same amount of lies too.
just like any other religious ideology beliefs.
0011StealTH
Active Member
YEAH. we are are own creators.I believe you make your own story in life.
MediMary
Well-Known Member
how does one discern between the lies and the turth?
cannabisguru
Well-Known Member
mmmmm.. going to have to disagree with you on that one pal.
I mean yeah sure.. in this day in age? Yea, we are our own creator via reproduction (sex for you young kids).
However, at the very start of our species.. what made our first human species? Where did the first human come from?
Was it evolution? Or an act of God.. or a 'God' or a 'Goddess'??
You must have an open mind with great inspiration to fully understand all of this.
just my opinion.
peace.
cannabisguru
Well-Known Member
Jeffdt1966
Active Member
A great novel it is ... but theres a reason its usually in the fiction section at the library ..... written by man to serve mens needs . Organized religion is a sham ... no such thing as destiney ... where you are in your life is the result of the decisions you made on the way - you make your own desteny even if you dont want too - not deciding on something is also a choice . Dont blame devils or credit angels --- it's all you baby : )
gogrow
confused
I'll play a little bit, just because I feel this is a great debate....
I grew up southern baptist, so you know the kinds of teachings/preachings I'm used to, and where my idealogical base is..... but I've also always been a free thinker, and a hardhead that didnt take "that's just the way it is" for an answer, so I've often pondered this and several other head scratchers over the years.
I dont think the bible should be taken 100% as the "way it is" just for the simple fact that we dont read it in it's true language that it was written in, so that leaves room for a multitude of errors.
Then there is that fact that I've yet to meet a REAL 'man of god'..... and have a very recent, and close to the family "preacher" that was just convicted of incest with his daughter, and religion was his way of controlling everything; so I have a hard time believing that the bible could NOT have some men's own personal agendas thrown in..... NOR am I saying that it has happened....
Should God be omnipotent as claimed, he should in theory be able to force men's wills to write the book the way he wanted and not deviate one bit..... but then that goes against the whole 'free will' thing......
great fucking debate though
I grew up southern baptist, so you know the kinds of teachings/preachings I'm used to, and where my idealogical base is..... but I've also always been a free thinker, and a hardhead that didnt take "that's just the way it is" for an answer, so I've often pondered this and several other head scratchers over the years.
I dont think the bible should be taken 100% as the "way it is" just for the simple fact that we dont read it in it's true language that it was written in, so that leaves room for a multitude of errors.
Then there is that fact that I've yet to meet a REAL 'man of god'..... and have a very recent, and close to the family "preacher" that was just convicted of incest with his daughter, and religion was his way of controlling everything; so I have a hard time believing that the bible could NOT have some men's own personal agendas thrown in..... NOR am I saying that it has happened....
Should God be omnipotent as claimed, he should in theory be able to force men's wills to write the book the way he wanted and not deviate one bit..... but then that goes against the whole 'free will' thing......
great fucking debate though
MediMary
Well-Known Member
This debate is one of the main reason I quit going to church, if I hear "you h ave to have faith" one more time... LMAO
now some of you may get the idea Im anti christian or something.. I still read the bible on occasion.. I know james 1:5 from heart. I have asked god to give me the wisdom to understand this, and I have pondered this a good 10 years or so. 10 years ago I was reading everyday for long periods of time.. I originally came up with the whole predestination vs free will question( Meaning I didn't read it and jump on the band wangon, I came to that conclusion after years of reading the bible.
Now check this.. if the bible isn't the perfect word of god.. then what. Something bothers me that Ghandi can help 1000's of people and still get sentenced to eternal damnation..
but your pedi preacher can go with the last minute repentace and bam he goes to heaven.
The bible is fairly clear that your works do not get you to heaven, that you have to have jesus in your heart.
I mean if
now some of you may get the idea Im anti christian or something.. I still read the bible on occasion.. I know james 1:5 from heart. I have asked god to give me the wisdom to understand this, and I have pondered this a good 10 years or so. 10 years ago I was reading everyday for long periods of time.. I originally came up with the whole predestination vs free will question( Meaning I didn't read it and jump on the band wangon, I came to that conclusion after years of reading the bible.
Now check this.. if the bible isn't the perfect word of god.. then what. Something bothers me that Ghandi can help 1000's of people and still get sentenced to eternal damnation..
but your pedi preacher can go with the last minute repentace and bam he goes to heaven.
The bible is fairly clear that your works do not get you to heaven, that you have to have jesus in your heart.
I mean if
MediMary
Well-Known Member
Bart Simpson,(from the simpsons)
Said it best
"I think I'll go for the life of sin, followed by the last-minute, presto-change-o, deathbed repentance."
Bart: 'Scuse me, Brother Faith. I gotta know, how did you really get the bucket off my dad's head?
Brother Faith: Well I didn't, son. You did. God gave you the power.
Bart: Really? Hm. I would think he would want to limit my power.
Brother Faith: Oh, yes Lord. When I was your age, I was a hell raiser too. My slingshot was my cross. But I saw the light, and changed my wicked ways.
Bart: I figure I'll go for the life of sin, followed by the presto-change-o deathbed repentance.
Brother Faith: Wow, that's a good angle. Uh, but it's not God's angle. Why not spend your life helping people instead? Then you're also covered in case of sudden death.
Bart: Full coverage? Hm...
Said it best
"I think I'll go for the life of sin, followed by the last-minute, presto-change-o, deathbed repentance."
Bart: 'Scuse me, Brother Faith. I gotta know, how did you really get the bucket off my dad's head?
Brother Faith: Well I didn't, son. You did. God gave you the power.
Bart: Really? Hm. I would think he would want to limit my power.
Brother Faith: Oh, yes Lord. When I was your age, I was a hell raiser too. My slingshot was my cross. But I saw the light, and changed my wicked ways.
Bart: I figure I'll go for the life of sin, followed by the presto-change-o deathbed repentance.
Brother Faith: Wow, that's a good angle. Uh, but it's not God's angle. Why not spend your life helping people instead? Then you're also covered in case of sudden death.
Bart: Full coverage? Hm...
gogrow
confused
^^^
How that was always answered when I was growing up is "a TRUE christian would not do that" or something along those lines, yet at the same time you have all kinds of crazy shit from esteemed men of god in the bible, such as david with adultery, premeditated murder, etc.... Lot got shitfaced and slept with his daughter.... judas sold jesus' life for a minute amount of money... etc.
but yet as you say, all these people are in heaven theoretically, and just being a decent person, and believing in christ still isnt enough to make it??? The only logical thing it points to is some type of predistination, and I feel that the more you know about the bible, the more that idea presents itself.
How that was always answered when I was growing up is "a TRUE christian would not do that" or something along those lines, yet at the same time you have all kinds of crazy shit from esteemed men of god in the bible, such as david with adultery, premeditated murder, etc.... Lot got shitfaced and slept with his daughter.... judas sold jesus' life for a minute amount of money... etc.
but yet as you say, all these people are in heaven theoretically, and just being a decent person, and believing in christ still isnt enough to make it??? The only logical thing it points to is some type of predistination, and I feel that the more you know about the bible, the more that idea presents itself.
gogrow
confused
did you start a thread?? if so, i'd guess one of the nazis deemed it 'unacceptable'
beardo
Well-Known Member
Medi mary said something about debate and I stand firm on the issues-was just waiting to hear her stance so I could rebut her argument.did you start a thread?? if so, i'd guess one of the nazis deemed it 'unacceptable'
https://www.rollitup.org/politics/435896-i-cant-argue-debate-part.html
gogrow
confused
gotcha..... I just assumed it would have been deleted, as it sounds like a great debate, but one that inevitably ends up in a shitstorm, as both sides tend to stand firm on their beliefs on the subject.