Geitner Unleashed

[mame]

In 2006, 66.3 percent of all U.S. corporations were S corporations, yet represented just 21.2 percent of total corporate receipts (IRS, SOI Bulletin (PDF),


Need to change the tax laws instead of punishing the actual small businesses in order to get more revenue.

So then you'd agree that Bechtel, a $31 billion dollar S-corp, should not be paying the same rates as small business?

edit: to take that further... Would you reform the tax code to fix this problem?

so to me, the only way to fix it is to get money out of the system. make it so everyone who is campaigning has the same funds, and whoever has the best message to the people will win. thats what we want, isnt it?

sorry im fucked up and got off topic lol

Arizona's campaign finance law just got struck down 5-4 (conservative majority)... It seems any regulation of money is regulation of free speech and is therefore unconstitutional. /sigh

Nonetheless, I accept the Supreme courts decision, they can only interpret the law after all. Which reminds me, another Federal Appeals court says Obamacare is constitutional... Can't be much longer before the case is in front of the SCOTUS as well.

 

[NoDrama]

The problem with revenue going down is because in the last 4 years we have lost 22% of the taxpayers in this country to unemployment. I agree the ULTRA rich should pay their fair share of taxes, but the ULTRA Rich NEVER pay their fair share, thats why the tax code is so large, to make loopholes for huge multinational conglomerates to exploit.

GE is the largest corporation in the whole world and it got a tax refund and paid nothing. The CEO of GE is Obama's Jobs Chief. The Ultra rich do not pay taxes, just the rich and the middle classes do.

 

[NoDrama]

So then you'd agree that Bechtel, a $31 billion dollar S-corp, should not be paying the same rates as small business?

edit: to take that further... Would you reform the tax code to fix this problem?

I would definitely reform the tax code, All corporations who make a profit will pay 20% tax no exceptions. All individual citizens will pay a 15% tax on any income above the poverty rate, no exceptions. Tax day would take anyone 5 minutes to do and we could get rid of the majority of the IRS. Adding more regulations won't help anything. The ULTRA rich will still figure out a way to abscond with taxpayer dollars with no taxes due.

 

[jeff f]

The problem with revenue going down is because in the last 4 years we have lost 22% of the taxpayers in this country to unemployment. I agree the ULTRA rich should pay their fair share of taxes, but the ULTRA Rich NEVER pay their fair share, thats why the tax code is so large, to make loopholes for huge multinational conglomerates to exploit.

GE is the largest corporation in the whole world and it got a tax refund and paid nothing. The CEO of GE is Obama's Jobs Chief. The Ultra rich do not pay taxes, just the rich and the middle classes do.

i would love to see the tax code reformed. some sort of flat rate on profits so its less confusing and more fair.

truth is the biggest users of the tax code are the biggest recipients of its benefits. we continually reward folks for being non productive and punish the entreprenuers who make this society function.

i am also of the opinion that taxing corporations makes no sense. corps have to pass on the tax to consumers. thats where they get their money to begin with. higher taxes means they need more money. where do they get it, the consumer. its just a circle jerk of cash.

if GE pays a trillion or zero it doesnt affect my life, other than the food processor i just bought cost a dollar more.

its all class warfare and its unproductive.

 

[mame]

The problem with revenue going down is because in the last 4 years we have lost 22% of the taxpayers in this country to unemployment. I agree the ULTRA rich should pay their fair share of taxes, but the ULTRA Rich NEVER pay their fair share, thats why the tax code is so large, to make loopholes for huge multinational conglomerates to exploit.

GE is the largest corporation in the whole world and it got a tax refund and paid nothing. The CEO of GE is Obama's Jobs Chief. The Ultra rich do not pay taxes, just the rich and the middle classes do.

So then the best way to go about it is to just accept defeat and protect the rich and middle classes from the poor who would tax the ultra rich(because the ultra rich will find a way out of it and it will only effect those who already pay their fair share)?

The logic is there, you're right that the ultra rich wayyyy too often get away without paying their fair share and that tax increases end up effecting everyone else a lot of the time instead but that's a problem with the system - it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be pursuing the ultra rich for their fair share... But the defeatism, I can't do; Otherwise, they've won.

I would definitely reform the tax code, All corporations who make a profit will pay 20% tax no exceptions. All individual citizens will pay a 15% tax on any income above the poverty rate, no exceptions. Tax day would take anyone 5 minutes to do and we could get rid of the majority of the IRS. Adding more regulations won't help anything. The ULTRA rich will still figure out a way to abscond with taxpayer dollars with no taxes due

See, like that lol... Defeatist. IDK I may be niave but I'm convinced that if the laws were in place and there were no tax cuts than the IRS would be able to enforce the tax laws effectively. The government just needs to stay outta sugar daddy's bed... And that'd require campaign reform IMO. So it's not impossible, just really really hard!

We differ on the percentages - Medicare, etc would be impossible to maintain at any useful benefit level at your proposed rates(which you might not care about anyway I guess) - but I agree that the tax system should be heavily simplified. I'd argue 20% corporate tax rate is a tad low, but I'm not really into posting an arbitrary number either. I believe in progressive tax systems so it'd probably be something along those lines, with bigger companies paying a higher percentage and start ups, mom and pop shops, barely profitable small businesses with a lower rate. I'd apply the same principle to people... I would also take economic theory like the Laffer curve and Rahn curve into account when deciding how large government should be and how high or low taxes should be.

 

[NoDrama]

So then the best way to go about it is to just accept defeat and protect the rich and middle classes from the poor who would tax the ultra rich(because the ultra rich will find a way out of it and it will only effect those who already pay their fair share)?

The logic is there, you're right that the ultra rich wayyyy too often get away without paying their fair share and that tax increases end up effecting everyone else a lot of the time instead but that's a problem with the system - it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be pursuing the ultra rich for their fair share... But the defeatism, I can't do; Otherwise, they've won.

See, like that lol... Defeatist. IDK I may be niave but I'm convinced that if the laws were in place and there were no tax cuts than the IRS would be able to enforce the tax laws effectively. The government just needs to stay outta sugar daddy's bed... And that'd require campaign reform IMO. So it's not impossible, just really really hard!

We differ on the percentages - Medicare, etc would be impossible to maintain at any useful benefit level at your proposed rates(which you might not care about anyway I guess) - but I agree that the tax system should be heavily simplified. I'd argue 20% corporate tax rate is a tad low, but I'm not really into posting an arbitrary number either. I believe in progressive tax systems so it'd probably be something along those lines, with bigger companies paying a higher percentage and start ups, mom and pop shops, barely profitable small businesses with a lower rate. I'd apply the same principle to people... I would also take economic theory like the Laffer curve and Rahn curve into account when deciding how large government should be and how high or low taxes should be.

We ran this country for over 150 years with ZERO income tax. The problem Geithner thinks is that we don't have enough revenue, but what the real problem is is that we have too much spending. I don't plan on getting taxed even more just so government does not have to make any politically hard decisions to cut some benefits and wasteful spending. Cut the spending and if the banks go under becasue of it, oh fucking boo hoo.

 

[maylee]

Ready for another recession? We have already been in a new one for a couple months now, not that things got any better from the last. Both political parties are making this recession worse.
Tax and spend Democrats or Republicans. Actually it is spend and tax, how can you tax someone with no money? Seems like the current plan is for higher unemployment, lower wadges and we need to raise taxes to balance the budget right? And you wonder why the recession is worsening?
All the small business owners I know are barley hanging on, that is the ones who have not already gone under.
Some proposals to improve the economy.
The heart of the problem is political. Calls for austerity - this makes very very good politics. The government cuts back, you cut back, the government cuts back more you cut back more. This is not going to work. This is a basic misunderstanding of how the money economy works and unfortunately for you and me it is the people at the top who are ignorant.
How about this, a tax holiday for everyone, zero federal tax across the board. Your FICA tax will be $0.00 and I mean this literally. You worry about the government will go broke, cant happen its impossible. This is the heart of the misunderstanding equating personal finance and The FED. They are completely different things.

 

[Mr Neutron]

Ready for another recession? We have already been in a new one for a couple months now, not that things got any better from the last. Both political parties are making this recession worse.
Tax and spend Democrats or Republicans. Actually it is spend and tax, how can you tax someone with no money? Seems like the current plan is for higher unemployment, lower wadges and we need to raise taxes to balance the budget right? And you wonder why the recession is worsening?
All the small business owners I know are barley hanging on, that is the ones who have not already gone under.
Some proposals to improve the economy.
The heart of the problem is political. Calls for austerity - this makes very very good politics. The government cuts back, you cut back, the government cuts back more you cut back more. This is not going to work. This is a basic misunderstanding of how the money economy works and unfortunately for you and me it is the people at the top who are ignorant.
How about this, a tax holiday for everyone, zero federal tax across the board. Your FICA tax will be $0.00 and I mean this literally. You worry about the government will go broke, cant happen its impossible. This is the heart of the misunderstanding equating personal finance and The FED. They are completely different things.

A tax holiday is a great idea, one that I have advocated for years. I'd like to see one for a year, then when everybody sees how much they have been throwing away to Washington and how well the economy is doing, maybe we can get rid of the draconian IRS and keep what is rightly ours.

 

[maylee]

Taxes function to regulate aggregate demand, and not to raise revenue per se. Now that we have been in recession for a while people are spending much less. Drastic cuts have been made on all levels of government service . And now it's time to tax everyone more so we will have even less to spend. It is a very good way to keep the recession going strong.
Right now Congress is blocking any-kind of effort to make things better. To me it looks like they are tanking the economy on purpose to make the other guy look bad.

 

[BendBrewer]

Remember, George Bush first cut taxes because the economy was doing so well.

Then he cut them again because the economy was so bad.

That is the Right's only solution and no matter the situation that is all they ever propose.

"SURPLUS??????? Well shit, let's cut taxes............RECESSION??????? Shit, let's cut taxes"

And you folks wonder why raising them might be a solution? Cutting them sure didn't work out like they said. If any of you lived anywhere else in the world you would be paying more taxes. Spoiled fucking brats.

 

[UncleBuck]

not somalia! they have exceedingly low tax rates

 

[NoDrama]

not somalia! they have exceedingly low tax rates

Its for that very same reason I have started a pirate company. What we do is go out and take over ships out in the ocean, hold passengers for ransom and sell the products for profit.

 

[Mr Neutron]

And you folks wonder why raising them might be a solution? Cutting them sure didn't work out like they said. If any of you lived anywhere else in the world you would be paying more taxes. Spoiled fucking brats.

Let's see. In the US, you could pay up to 35%.
Belarus=12%, Brazil=27.5%, Bulgaria=10%, Canada=29%, Cyprus=30%, Czech Rep=15%, Estonia=20%, Hong Kong=17%, Hungary=32%, India=30%, Indonesia=30%, Latvia=30%, Libya=15%, Lithuania=20%, Mexico=28%, MONACO=0%, Panama=25%, Philippines=32%, Romania=16%, Russia=13%, Saudi Arabia=20%, Serbia=20%, Singapore=20%, Slovakia=19%, Switzerland=11.5%, Ukraine=17%

 

[IAm5toned]

in the us-
history shows us that the two largest tax increases in history ( reagan and clinton) also created the 2 of the largest economic expansions in history.
history also shows us that every single major period of economic depression/recession were precluded by some form of a major tax cut.

history repeats itself... you would think politicians, of all people, would remember that.

 

[jeff f]

in the us-
history shows us that the two largest tax increases in history ( reagan and clinton) also created the 2 of the largest economic expansions in history.
history also shows us that every single major period of economic depression/recession were precluded by some form of a major tax cut.

history repeats itself... you would think politicians, of all people, would remember that.

So we taxed ourselves into prosperity? Interesting, totally fucking ignorant, but interesting

 

[redivider]

Let's see. In the US, you could pay up to 35%.
Belarus=12%, Brazil=27.5%, Bulgaria=10%, Canada=29%, Cyprus=30%, Czech Rep=15%, Estonia=20%, Hong Kong=17%, Hungary=32%, India=30%, Indonesia=30%, Latvia=30%, Libya=15%, Lithuania=20%, Mexico=28%, MONACO=0%, Panama=25%, Philippines=32%, Romania=16%, Russia=13%, Saudi Arabia=20%, Serbia=20%, Singapore=20%, Slovakia=19%, Switzerland=11.5%, Ukraine=17%

actually, the theoretical tax rate for corporations hovers around 40%. companies create budgets expecting this tax rate.

tax laws allow such loopholes which lowers the practical tax rate to around 15%, most of the most profitable companies do not even report tax liability.

they report tax credits and expect to receive tax dollars, not pay them.

business school. try it. you learn a lot...

 

[Mr Neutron]

actually, the theoretical tax rate for corporations hovers around 40%. companies create budgets expecting this tax rate.

tax laws allow such loopholes which lowers the practical tax rate to around 15%, most of the most profitable companies do not even report tax liability.

they report tax credits and expect to receive tax dollars, not pay them.

business school. try it. you learn a lot...

Actually, I was responding to another poster who said "If any of you lived anywhere else in the world you would be paying more taxes." It had nothing to do with corporate taxes.
Reading. Learn how.

 

[maylee]

Economic growth is determined primarily by three factors: Growth in the labor force, the rate of technological advance, and the amount of capital available to the workforce. Of the three, the last one may be the most susceptible to the meddling of politicians. Taxes are not necessary to raise revenue for the Fed, the Fed has a monopoly on money they are the price setters for the cost of money. Taxes function to regulate aggregate demand. The government could cut taxes to zero if they wanted too, the real constraint on this is political. This would put money into working peoples pockets now.

Aggregate demand for goods and services is down big time. We can see this is true driving around town. Unemployment equates to the Federal budget deficit being too small, and the value of a currency is determined by the prices paid by that government.

We can cut the government budget down more just like they did in the 1930's
We will get the same results of coarse a much greater economic slowdown.

All union jobs are at about 12% in America.
This is the most important point of all - The crab mentality refers to a pot of crabs. Individually, the crabs could easily escape from the pot, but instead, they grab at each other in a useless "king of the hill" competition (or sabotage) which prevents any from escaping and ensures their collective demise. When someone else is making more we demand they get paid less instead of asking why am I not worth more. The crab mentality is third world thinking, it's race to the bottom instead of a race to the top.

So why tax corporations if the government does not need the money?
To influence the corporation to do things. Like make it financially a good thing to set up 401Ks for there employees. To reinvest into research and development instead of hoarding the cash. This is how corporate taxes can be though of instead of thinking they make more than I do, tax the shit out of them.

 

[txpete77]

While I haven't read every post word-for-word in this thread, I did skim over them - so if I missed something please excuse the oversight. One thing I noticed that when people here were screaming "more taxes for corporations!" not one swinging dick mentioned or acknowledged the fact that corporations, or any business for that matter does not actually pay taxes. All they do is collect those taxes, we - the consumers are the only taxpayers. The same is true with personal income taxes, but the connection is not as direct as corporate taxes. This is one reason I'm a Fair-Tax supporter.

Example:
Raise taxes on XYZ corporation? Watch the prices they charge for their services or goods increase - or the quality go down - or payrolls to their workforce go down - or layoffs. Corporations are not in the business of cutting profits to pay taxes - or any other expenses for that matter, as their goal is to make money for their investors.

So go ahead and raise taxes on them, but don't bitch when they pass the bill to you at the cash register.

 

[txpete77]

Second thing I noticed is this "tax the rich" and the "fair share" mentality. A progressive income tax is one of the pillars of communism. It screams that making money, and being good at it is some type of sin - something to be punished. Is that a type of thing something we want to punish in this country?

Then, this fair share bit is the biggest load of horse shit the politicians have been able to brainwash our citizenry with. In 2005, the top 20% of income earners made 55% of the personal income earned in this country, but paid 83% of all the income taxes collected. On the other side of this coin, the bottom 20% made about 4% of the personal income, and payed -3% (as in they were paid - not by welfare, but by things like the 'earned income credit'). So if this isn't fair, then I would hate to see what is...