Prefontaine
Well-Known Member
yeah the bunny rabit guy nvrmnd
Seedlings In Bad Shape.
- Thread starter clarionnecro
- Start date
clarionnecro
Active Member
Yes thank you for the information. I figured that all out when everyone told me it was overwatering when i first posted this thread. So next time and from now on I will be sure not to overwater. At least try to get it down to a science 
the purple stems have ceased after the second set of leaves. I really fucked up the whole first 2 weeks of their lives. so now that they have all pulled through my haphazard watering, i really make sure they are about to need the water before i give it. and now i got a ph meter aswell, so i can give them the right stuff ^_^
the purple stems have ceased after the second set of leaves. I really fucked up the whole first 2 weeks of their lives. so now that they have all pulled through my haphazard watering, i really make sure they are about to need the water before i give it. and now i got a ph meter aswell, so i can give them the right stuff ^_^
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
I am finding a pH meter pretty useless, the right drainage and lime in the soil seems to keep my pH dead on but i needed a pH meter to understand what was going on first. My water comes out the tap at pH8 andd ferts drop it to 6.5 so i rarely need the meter these days. Peace
clarionnecro
Active Member
I'm still new to this so the ph meter is really handy right now. but im sure that after i use it so much i will learn the pattern and not need it after a while
meetjoeblow
Well-Known Member
Dude they r ready for the hps and half strength nutes.hold off on the lst. Wait until u get growth in-between the nodes (u'll see wat im talkingabout later ) but which method u use kinda depends on space, strain. Scrogging is the best way to increase yield. Its a form of lst that uses a net to increase the amount of light hitting the plants. But it takes up a shit load of space and 9times out of 10 u would need secondary lighting.but If u do decide to go that route u should top or fim. First to make the stems more manageable. If not the stems can and will. Break under the bend ( trust me )... so I guess a good combination of both is best. But they aren't developed enough for. Toping Or fimming either u would be better off waiting a week or two.......and I saw that u have a Ph meter too.. good. Now we no there was a problem on the Ph end and we can fix that. First u need to Ph the SOIL. To do that check out. http://soil.gsfc.nasa.gov/pvg/ph.htm .... next after u correct the Ph in the soil mix in the fertilizer and Ph the soil again. The soil it self is a living ecosystem and the bacteria in it can effect the Ph of the soil. As for the vinegar. Idk if u should use that or not I no u should in hydro as for soil I would do more research it couldbreed the wrong bacteria or break down into something else but Idk. And it's a good idea to filter your water first with. A cheap wearer filter from like Walmart or something. And the last thing I would check into would be feeding schedules. Look around the forum for other massive indoor grows. People with big plants and massive grow opps tend to have helpful tips
meetjoeblow
Well-Known Member
That's suppose to say should not use vinegar with hydro..... the t9 on my phone fucks up a lot that's y y the punctuation is fucked up as well
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
I disagree with the whole pH thing, its misleading, buying a top of the range pH and ec meter just taught me to not really need one. Yer its good to pH your water and nutes but these do not change the pH of the soil. Ferts will aadd to the acidity of the soil but the main reason soil is acidic is because as peat and organic matters breakdown they produce hydrogen ions which loosly attach themselves to the peat. This causes acidic soil, you need to replace these acidic hydrogen ions with alkaline ions like calcium and magnesium and hence why a lot of growers add lime to their soil to sweeten or buffer the pH back up to near pH7. Limes actual pH is 7.5 to 8 but works against the acidic soil to bring it to near neutral. Of coures you need to add the right amount of lime in the first place.
Yer reading the soil runoff etc can be a little handy the end result is you learn how much lime to add to the soil in the first place so you dont have pH problems.
I use to read the soil runoff and do it your way but then i learnt the rest to pH and it makes things a lot simpler. Regular wet and dry periods from good drainage help stop the pH becoming acidic so quick as well, people who add a lot of perlite tend to have less pH problems. Peace
Yer reading the soil runoff etc can be a little handy the end result is you learn how much lime to add to the soil in the first place so you dont have pH problems.
I use to read the soil runoff and do it your way but then i learnt the rest to pH and it makes things a lot simpler. Regular wet and dry periods from good drainage help stop the pH becoming acidic so quick as well, people who add a lot of perlite tend to have less pH problems. Peace
meetjoeblow
Well-Known Member
Ohh and they r making a shit load of progress but they should be growing faster. The five leaf set should be the next to sprout and the 5 finger leaf set should be bigger than your hand to give u a good idea of wherethey should be. And that's just for the indica. The sativas should be longer. By once u get it right they will grow exponentially and catch up. As long as u fix everything during veggitation everything should be fine in the end
meetjoeblow
Well-Known Member
Y wouldn't u Ph. Especially when u don't no or fully understand the composition of the soil, nutes, and water. There r so many variables that can change from set up to set up that phing. And testing the ppm is sortta a must. The water has elements depending on different standards of different. Municipal suppliers. And how contaminated the original source is. Different fertilizers have different levels of different compounds. Different, soil mixes have different levels of different bacteria with different mediums with different drainage properties which means different salt retention properties all of which effect the Ph....he wouldn't even have known his Ph was off without testing it. U can treat a deficiency symptom but once its locked out that's it until the Ph comes back to an acceptable range. Its true that a million dollar ph pen isn't necessary but its too many varriables to just grow blind
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
I use to pH dude but still all you do is mix your soil for drainage, add some lime and thats it for the pH, should you see pH problems on your plant topdress more lime or slight problems can be cured by increasing cal/mag.
Runoff and soil pH will never test accuratly because of the acidity of the ferts i.e. i add more ferts and the runoff pH goes down! This dose not mean the soil has changed pH, the ferts will add to it slowly turning acidic but the ferts will also give a much lower reading than the soil.
Put a couple of ml of your ferts in some pH 6.5 water, what happens, most likely it drops to 5 or lower! This will be the reading you get from the runoff but in no way is this the soils pH, only lime and things like that will change the soils pH.
A healthy plant with healthy doses of ferts runoff pH should read about 5.5 so whatever dude your wrong, if the plant got problems and you think it is pH and the runoff tested like pH5 and the ppm was like 2800 you would know that it was not a pH problem but an overfert problem!
Are you starting to get the whole pH thing yet? Yes it is handy to know but every time you fert you will lower the runoff pH not the soil so when you see pH5.5 in soil and the plant is 100percent healthy you know the soil pH is well within the 6.3-6.8 scale needed for good weed growth and that it is merely the ferts you added to the soil medium which are lowering the runoff pH.
Basically a plant can have a runoff of pH5 and still grow healthily so pH runoff aint nothing like what you think, trust me i use to be like you but got some very good advice of some very good growers. I simply add the right amount of lime per peat in my soil and the plant dont got no pH problems, if it shows pH problems it is not the pH but too much ferts in the soil. Most soils are pH 6.3 to 6.6 with most i have tested being nearer 6.3. Peace
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
I know links are tedious but here is a great one explaining the hydrogen exchange on peat and how acidity in soil is caused, it is a great article and sums it up for me. You really have to ask yourself what fundamentally makes soil acidic, here it is -
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/magazine/?storyid=47
clarionnecro
Active Member
wow. there is alot more to soil ph then i thought. easy enough to understand though. But truth be told, I wouldnt know what any of my ph values were if i didnt have a ph meter. So now that I have it I will be learning a bunch. As for overwatering, I water the day before my plants droop showing the need for water, This seems to be a good way of watering as far as i have read and seen. My soil is FFoF it comes pre ph'ed for pot in the 6.5 range give or take, as far as I was told anyways.
So testing soil runoff, as long as my ph is around 5.5 on the runoff, then my soil ph should be good then as far as I am understanding?
As for the 5 fingered leaves, the new growth on most of them is 5 fingered so you were dead on.
I am very worried about burning them with nutes, thats why I have only done 1 quarter dose nute feeding. People tell me FFoF is really hot with nutes already so I shouldnt use nutes for a couple more weeks? Can someone verify this or should i do a nute feed every other watering?
As for the HPS. Its a 600w. your saying that its a good idea for me to give them some better light now correct? The are leaf sprouts coming out in between the leaf and the main stem now. So is that the indication they are ready to upgrade then?
So testing soil runoff, as long as my ph is around 5.5 on the runoff, then my soil ph should be good then as far as I am understanding?
As for the 5 fingered leaves, the new growth on most of them is 5 fingered so you were dead on.
I am very worried about burning them with nutes, thats why I have only done 1 quarter dose nute feeding. People tell me FFoF is really hot with nutes already so I shouldnt use nutes for a couple more weeks? Can someone verify this or should i do a nute feed every other watering?
As for the HPS. Its a 600w. your saying that its a good idea for me to give them some better light now correct? The are leaf sprouts coming out in between the leaf and the main stem now. So is that the indication they are ready to upgrade then?
clarionnecro
Active Member
I just read further on ph testing soil runoff. Its kinda difficult for me to grasp as there are so many variables. As far as I'm understanding, I want my runoff to read between 6.0-7.0 if I water with 6.5-7.0 water. If its not, add some lime and retest untill i can get it in that range. With lime being a neutral 7.0 ph. So if its to low, add lime, to high add lime? I think i'm confuesing myself
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
Just read up on how to check soil pH runoff, lime is pH 7.5 to 8 so will only stop a soil being acidic not the other way round, people say lime is neutral but it is actually alkaline.
Dolomite lime is made up of calcium and magnesium (only use dolomite or garden lime only not hydrated or anything else). It is roughly 3 parts calcium to 1 part magnesium and the calcium releases quicker than the magnesium.
So lime will raise the pH but pH'ed water and ferts will not raise or lower the pH. Hence if you have acidic soil you might flush till the water you put in comes out at the same pH and then you will have achieved that pH 'BUT' because the soil is acidic it will slowly turn acidic again giving you pH problems.
The main thing is the only reason to have a pH tester is really to pH water and nutes, it will not cure a pH problem, only lime or similar will do that by 'BUFFERING' the soil and working against the acidic soil to neutralise the acid effects.
A pH meter might help you to know what is going on but better than this if you have peat in your soil amend with lime if the manufactures didn't. I always find i need to amend with lime for a few different brands so chances are you will have to.
Organic ferts are more forgiving on pH and dont drop the water pH by much, healthy well drained soils that have wet and dry periods of 4 days seem to keep better pH than wet anarobic condition soils. Plants and the soil bacteria need to breath and reguarly, this is why overwatering will kill a plant quick and make a peat soil go acidic quicker. I use about 30 percent perlite and vermiculite in with my soil and about a level teaspoon of powdered lime (i take the fine grade dolomite lime and pestle and mortar it futher into almost a powder) powdered lime works quicker and the more wet and dry cycles the faster it seems to work.
Basically my runoff with lime is about 6.3 to 6.5, adding ferts will lower this a little and i would know what ferts and the ppm i have added so i would expect pH to drop a little every time i added ferts, when the runoff reads a high ppm from built up ferts and fert salts as well as a low pH say around 5 to 5.5 and the plant is looking overferted or pH problems i know it is time to flush and bring the soil back to its neutral state without ferts.
A flush will drop the runoff down to just a few hundred ppm and the pH should go back up to 6.3 to 6.6 near the original soil pH out of the bag before you added ferts. Now since you have taken all the ferts out the plant will starve unless you put near a full dose back in and then the cycle begins again.
Dont read the pH runoff but more monitor it so you know everything is ok, looking at pH and ppm in the runoff will tell you if you need more lime as it drops fast or when to flush and then you will realise the importance of how pH, ferts and flushing all fit together and why growers recomend each one. Hope this helps. Peace
Dolomite lime is made up of calcium and magnesium (only use dolomite or garden lime only not hydrated or anything else). It is roughly 3 parts calcium to 1 part magnesium and the calcium releases quicker than the magnesium.
So lime will raise the pH but pH'ed water and ferts will not raise or lower the pH. Hence if you have acidic soil you might flush till the water you put in comes out at the same pH and then you will have achieved that pH 'BUT' because the soil is acidic it will slowly turn acidic again giving you pH problems.
The main thing is the only reason to have a pH tester is really to pH water and nutes, it will not cure a pH problem, only lime or similar will do that by 'BUFFERING' the soil and working against the acidic soil to neutralise the acid effects.
A pH meter might help you to know what is going on but better than this if you have peat in your soil amend with lime if the manufactures didn't. I always find i need to amend with lime for a few different brands so chances are you will have to.
Organic ferts are more forgiving on pH and dont drop the water pH by much, healthy well drained soils that have wet and dry periods of 4 days seem to keep better pH than wet anarobic condition soils. Plants and the soil bacteria need to breath and reguarly, this is why overwatering will kill a plant quick and make a peat soil go acidic quicker. I use about 30 percent perlite and vermiculite in with my soil and about a level teaspoon of powdered lime (i take the fine grade dolomite lime and pestle and mortar it futher into almost a powder) powdered lime works quicker and the more wet and dry cycles the faster it seems to work.
Basically my runoff with lime is about 6.3 to 6.5, adding ferts will lower this a little and i would know what ferts and the ppm i have added so i would expect pH to drop a little every time i added ferts, when the runoff reads a high ppm from built up ferts and fert salts as well as a low pH say around 5 to 5.5 and the plant is looking overferted or pH problems i know it is time to flush and bring the soil back to its neutral state without ferts.
A flush will drop the runoff down to just a few hundred ppm and the pH should go back up to 6.3 to 6.6 near the original soil pH out of the bag before you added ferts. Now since you have taken all the ferts out the plant will starve unless you put near a full dose back in and then the cycle begins again.
Dont read the pH runoff but more monitor it so you know everything is ok, looking at pH and ppm in the runoff will tell you if you need more lime as it drops fast or when to flush and then you will realise the importance of how pH, ferts and flushing all fit together and why growers recomend each one. Hope this helps. Peace
clarionnecro
Active Member
Thank you for putting that into words i can understand. I will have to just learn by time and experience. That really helped me to understand it better ^_^
Kingrow1
Well-Known Member
I hope so dude, i feel as you get the meter and start using it a lot more will become apparent. Lime is key for acidic soils and should last most of the grow. I have never used foxfarms but someone else who has might be able to tell you their opinion of it.
Ph starts of complicated but teaches you how to amend your soil properly and that drainage is all important.
I like the way learning pH and ppm learns you how to buffer your soil, add the right amount of ferts and know when to and how much to flush. This is the point i got to when i started to get really good. Took me time to understand pH etc etc but couple of months with my meters and working on not overwatering and i seem to have total control over my plants and soil. I cant tell you how good it feels to have it so simple. Plants droop and they need watering, they get a lighter shade or show purple stems and i add fertilizer, anything else and i flush.
People tell you to read the runoff pH and ppm but that is only half of it, the end result is not to have to wory about pH or need to check it much. I checked my runoff tonight and it came out pH6.5 and 700ppm on a 4 week old plant in veg so i must be doing somthing right. Peace
Ph starts of complicated but teaches you how to amend your soil properly and that drainage is all important.
I like the way learning pH and ppm learns you how to buffer your soil, add the right amount of ferts and know when to and how much to flush. This is the point i got to when i started to get really good. Took me time to understand pH etc etc but couple of months with my meters and working on not overwatering and i seem to have total control over my plants and soil. I cant tell you how good it feels to have it so simple. Plants droop and they need watering, they get a lighter shade or show purple stems and i add fertilizer, anything else and i flush.
People tell you to read the runoff pH and ppm but that is only half of it, the end result is not to have to wory about pH or need to check it much. I checked my runoff tonight and it came out pH6.5 and 700ppm on a 4 week old plant in veg so i must be doing somthing right. Peace