Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
No, I don't really understand what you mean, could you try to explain it in another way?
Humans "Can't Understand/Aren't Supposed to Understand"
- Thread starter Padawanbater2
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cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I'll try, but later. Maybe breakfast will help me organize what I'm almost able to say right now.
cheers 'neer
Luger187
Well-Known Member
lol yes i also love the way heis talks.
i think patternicity plays a huge role in religion. people see god in everyday occurrences because the brain naturally makes connections between connected AND non connected events. we see patterns even when there is no pattern. obviously this causes problems when the person has the belief in god beforehand. they automatically(most of the time) assume that it was god who did it, or it is all a part of gods plan. but in reality, they have absolutely no way of knowing or even beginning to explain how god and the event are connected. sometimes its just a coincidence that happened, or simply something we cannot yet explain by science. jumping to the conclusion that god did it really shows how weak our brains really are.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Humans can't even understand fish. Hypothetical homework assignment: "Make a fish." Not so easy.
cheers 'neer
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Padawanbater (epic nick btw! It took me some time before I got it.), I'm going to try breaking my logic down, checking my thinking for mistakes or unrealized assumptions.
1) Goedel's theorem states, more or less, that any internally consistent system (from a branch of mathematics up to and including the cosmos) cannot be described from within that system. Human knowledge is part of nature, so we can't ever entirely know nature.
2) The typical human concept of God makes her great enough to encompass everything - time, space, objects, events, conditions. Then to encompass all matters of spirit above&beyond nature. In Goedel's terms, she must have presence beyond nature to do this.
3) This satisfies the specification of infinity.
If god were finite, she would have to be a part of nature - observable, limited, fallible. In time (assuming we don't do something collectively embarrassing) we will evolve to meet and exceed any such limited natural "godhead". Perhaps my assumption is that such a lower-case god is ultimately uninteresting. Not up to the job.
cheers 'neer
1) Goedel's theorem states, more or less, that any internally consistent system (from a branch of mathematics up to and including the cosmos) cannot be described from within that system. Human knowledge is part of nature, so we can't ever entirely know nature.
2) The typical human concept of God makes her great enough to encompass everything - time, space, objects, events, conditions. Then to encompass all matters of spirit above&beyond nature. In Goedel's terms, she must have presence beyond nature to do this.
3) This satisfies the specification of infinity.
If god were finite, she would have to be a part of nature - observable, limited, fallible. In time (assuming we don't do something collectively embarrassing) we will evolve to meet and exceed any such limited natural "godhead". Perhaps my assumption is that such a lower-case god is ultimately uninteresting. Not up to the job.
cheers 'neer
Padawanbater2
Well-Known Member
Both fish and humans are proven to exist. What we are talking about, and what the point of the thread is, is some of these abilities theists attribute to God are illogical because they haven't been proven to exist, so it doesn't make any sense and doesn't provide us with anything useful for the theist to claim they do.
It's like me saying "unicorns can fly" - yet I haven't proven unicorns exist. Making the statement "unicorns can fly" is essentially senseless.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I want to address something I mentioned last night, a matter of subjective perception. When i am at baseline, my mind is obviously a tiny limited struggling thing. When i've taken a stout dose of a psychedelic, parts of my being, usually tucked out of sight, unfurl, shake themselves, start flapping. It is a powerful sensation of spirit-awareness, and imo it provides insight into why religion is such a powerful force in our lives. It speaks directly to awesome deep layers of our being, usually hidden beyond finding, but exposed by the right drugs.
I have come to accept this spirit-awareness as a beautiful, fascinating but ultimately self-generated feature of my neurochemistry. but i can easily see, understand, sympathize, how people take the sensation as offered and elaborate it into god-consciousness. We use something deeper, more primal, essentially occult ... to internally confirm that we have touched the divine.
cheers 'neer
I have come to accept this spirit-awareness as a beautiful, fascinating but ultimately self-generated feature of my neurochemistry. but i can easily see, understand, sympathize, how people take the sensation as offered and elaborate it into god-consciousness. We use something deeper, more primal, essentially occult ... to internally confirm that we have touched the divine.
cheers 'neer
darkdestruction420
Well-Known Member
how so? god, hypothetically, could of set the big bang in motion....in fact it works better with christianity than steady state theory does.
THENUMBER1022
Well-Known Member
once again, the concept of the big bang supports the assumption that everything in the universe that could happen, eventually will with enough time. This means that a God did not create our solar system, the universe created our solar system after a probably cinematic light show of super nova's and explosions resulting in orbiting planets, debris, ice, and other matter.. It's said that many comets carry the advanced DNA that is found in many species leading up to the human race. All of these pieces falling into place are creating a eutopia somewhere for some form of life. It is incredibly selfish to assume we are the only advanced life form in the universe, if a god supposedly created our galaxy and/or universe, then yes the scale is even larger but much more unrealistic, opposed to chance. Just like murphy's law, whatever can go wrong, will. Whatever could happen in the universe, probably already has for millions of years somewhere beyond our reaches.
I have a dogfaced puffer, and valentini puffer. Both make direct eye contact and hover in the same area as the person viewing the tank. They show their beaks and dance when they want krill. When they have to poop, they do a 'poop dance' and sometimes get so scared or constipated - they puff up and do a puffed up poop dance, looks more like the truffle shuffle. They allow me to pet them, they aren't afraid of the net or my hands, and will eat a krill out of my hand without ever mistakingingly biting me. They hesitate for food, they sleep on or under rocks, they love 'puff dancing' with eachother. I think fish are much much smarter than people generally think. My trigger's on the otherhand, are pretty stupid. Either that; or all they give a shit about is eating and fighting similar species.
I have a dogfaced puffer, and valentini puffer. Both make direct eye contact and hover in the same area as the person viewing the tank. They show their beaks and dance when they want krill. When they have to poop, they do a 'poop dance' and sometimes get so scared or constipated - they puff up and do a puffed up poop dance, looks more like the truffle shuffle. They allow me to pet them, they aren't afraid of the net or my hands, and will eat a krill out of my hand without ever mistakingingly biting me. They hesitate for food, they sleep on or under rocks, they love 'puff dancing' with eachother. I think fish are much much smarter than people generally think. My trigger's on the otherhand, are pretty stupid. Either that; or all they give a shit about is eating and fighting similar species.
darkdestruction420
Well-Known Member
how does the big bang support anything that could happen happening? an infinite steady state universe might.......The big bang says time is finite, not infinite like steady state.
THENUMBER1022
Well-Known Member
although time is finite, space is ever expanding.
darkdestruction420
Well-Known Member
yes, i thought of that after i posted. technically althought time is finite that doesnt mean space/time might not go on forever, resulting in the *heat death* end of the universe. time and space would still exist though and if you look at quantum mechanics and how space is described as filled with virtual particles it could lead to any number of possibilities.
mccumcumber
Well-Known Member
Eh... kind of... black holes tend to fuck that up. I thought the big bang said that the universe collapses upon itself then bangs out again in an endless cycle? Pretty sure that makes time infinite... maybe it's countably infinite. If space is infinite, time most definitely has to be. Wouldn't make sense if the fourth dimension didn't map one to one onto the three other dimensions, would it? I think that it is all considered to be countably infinite though because of the oscillations (big bang suggests that the universe just keeps repeating itself, kind of like a sine wave... it blows up, goes back in... etc.)
But anywho... using the same lame cop out arguments to try and prove religion is weak at best. I'm not against religion, I'm against really stupid justifications of it. If you want to believe, please do. People who actually follow what religious leaders say (Jesus, Krishna, etc) tend to be really great people. Dumbasses who try to force feed religion onto others cause wars (Jihad, Christians from 500-1700 ACE, etc)
"Our minds are finite, how can we understand an infinite mind" or whatever, is almost as lame as "You can't disprove or prove that their is a God." The first quote shows a pretty huge misunderstanding of the term infinite. I'm assuming when infinite is used in that quote it is meant to say, God's mind is way too huge so we can't comprehend it. Well... what you're referring to is uncountably infinite. A set is uncountable if its cardinal number is larger than that of the set of all natural numbers. Now, does that really make sense when referring to God? No. What about countably infinite? It means that the cardinality is the same as the natural numbers... still makes no sense. Furthermore, you would also need to clarify exactly what the criteria is for having a so called infinite mind... if you mean number of brain cells, well that kind of makes sense. But why would God have brain cells... and furthermore, if she did have brain cells, then she would have to be a tangible being living amongst the universe. Since we are supposedly the chosen people, I would assume that God would be chillin' out on earth. Obviously this is not the case. So number of brain cells can't be what that quote implies.
Well then, how about number of choices a person could make. Well funny thing about that, through Schrodinger's principle we can derive that for every action, there are infinite alternate universes where every other possible action happened. Since there is an infinite amount of universes for all of these actions, then the human brain must be "infinite" in this sense, so that can't be what the quote implies.
Religion shouldn't be something that people get in arguments about trying to prove. It ought to be something that people can learn something from IF THEY SO CHOOSE. Jesus, The Buddha, Krishna, Lao Tzu, etc were all great people, and valued peace. We can all learn something from those amazing people, it's when one becomes way too defensive about religion and starts going against their own religion to prove a point that makes people wonder what good religion has done for the world.
THENUMBER1022
Well-Known Member
it was also einsteins 'largest blunder' to assume the universe is static. Since it is ever expanding, it is forever creating itself.
darkdestruction420
Well-Known Member
I thought the big bang said that the universe collapses upon itself then bangs out again in an endless cycle?
No, that would be cyclic universe theory. It and big bang theory are compatable though. Our "bang" could be one of many thats happened in a cycle like that, but many other possibilities exist. Big bang theory doesnt really address what happened before this specific "bang" started.
No, that would be cyclic universe theory. It and big bang theory are compatable though. Our "bang" could be one of many thats happened in a cycle like that, but many other possibilities exist. Big bang theory doesnt really address what happened before this specific "bang" started.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
A truly scary scenario about which I read some time ago is called the Big Rip. Some believe that the cosmological constant is increasing, driving an expansion of the universe . If that increase continues, eventually the observability horizon (where the redshift clangs up against lightspeed) will narrow until galaxies, solar systems ... planets ... atoms themselves are larger than the diameter of observable space.
cheers 'neer
darkdestruction420
Well-Known Member
interesting, ive never heard of that version of the big rip theory. ive read of ones where as the strength of the cosmological constant/dark energy continues to increases with time eventually everything right down to atoms will be torn apart by it. do you know where i could find more info on that version? another interesting scenario that could theoretically happen ive read of is vacuum fluctuations in our "bubble" in the multiverse were to make it collapse, destroying everything in an instant most likely. not saying i support it, but its a a very interesting idea.
THENUMBER1022
Well-Known Member
It's possible there's been many big bangs! Measuring the age of time is impossible, no matter how hard we justify it.
But we know for a fact the universe is forever expanding. Our planet was the main ingredient, and comets and asteroids donated the ninety two elements present on earth to induce life.
But we know for a fact the universe is forever expanding. Our planet was the main ingredient, and comets and asteroids donated the ninety two elements present on earth to induce life.